HDMI over Cat5e problems and solutions, read before posting - Page 12 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #331 of 422 Old 07-02-2013, 09:35 PM
Member
 
Roberyu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Warning: This is LONG, and poorly written, so read-on if you want to torture yourself...

I'm going to relay my experiences with HDMI extension in conjunction with matrix switching. Iv'e finally gotten to a place I'm reasonably happy, and here's the ugly path...

I have 3 bedrooms and a livingroom I needed to share my cable provider supplied DVR, along with an XBMC box, and a couple more sources. A 4x4 matrix was decided upon because of the major pricing gulf between 4x4 and 8x8 solutions that really work.

I liked the value and performance of my Monoprice cables, so I started there even though a couple of 4x2 matrices I tried earlier did not work out (syncing issues, EDID issues, etc.). I chose this unit: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011310&p_id=8151&seq=1&format=2

I had earlier tried their 8x1 splitter over 2xCAT6 (each run, 4 runs), and that unit worked fairly solid except for the blanking and re-syncing of all displays whenever a new device came onlne. I was willing to live with that and a couple of other annoying glitches, so on to the 4x4 matrix over CAT6 from Monoprice I went.

What I trial of my sanity that was!! It was the same crappy experience I've had with my other Monoprice HDMI matrices, and worse. Problems like blank-out and re-sync of any of the destinations when another came on line when powered up, or switched from or to, and more than half the time things did not-re-sync correctly. Many of these failed re-sync to one or more (destinations) sinks during switching/powering events, required the cycling of power to the main matrix units or the destination CATx receiver units to get things working. Once everything was up and sync'd, then everything worked well... until the next switching even triggered a re-sync. This was maddening, but I lived with it until the main matrix finally stopped sending video to destinations about 9 months after purchase. Likely just a power supply, but I think I'll just round-file that POS anyway.

I'm sure some of you are thinking I could have cabling issues on either the cat6 or HDMI side of things. That is not the case. I'm using very good quality hight-speed HDMI cables, and I'm very experienced with CAT6 termination, and installation. I also tested out the CAT6 runs ,and they passed with flying colors, with the longest run of 70 linear feet reported by the tester. Also, it is important to note the pains I took to enhance my chances of success when trying to share HDMI sources to several destinations. There are no displays connected directly, and all destinations are late model Denon lossless-capable receivers with 1080p/24/30/60 displays connected. On the EDID lowest-common denominator playing field, I should be all good, and besides, it all sync'd up eventually with much fiddly work with power-cycling matrix components.

I ended up calling HDTV Supply to just relay my experiences, and see if their more expensive units would get me something more reliable, without costing the $3K that seemed common on their site. The guy told me that value-wise, it may be better to just go with a straight matrix and convert to CAT6 externally. A bit more equipment mess, but I can hide that. I ended up getting the 4x4 Shinybow HD-44 with the single CATx extenders you can select as an option when ordering. The whole thing cost me about $600 with 4 extenders. I thought he was exaggerating when he said it would all be rock solid like a tank with no glitches. That is a BOLD statement regarding HDMI extension and distribution. I guess I was biased from my experiences with lesser equipment, because I could have never imagined what I ended up with...

I installed the matrix, extenders, and all of my existing equipment, using the same cables I was all along. I was in utter shock that I was getting absolutely rock solid switching and extension of my HDMI sources. There was zero blanking or re-syncing of any of my destinations from other sinks coming online, switching in or out of any of the sources, etc. I mean no glitches at all period, on any of the destinations, regardless of what any other destination was doing. It was like all of the HDCP and EDID complications vanished from my HDMI switching/distribution experience, and I did not think that was possible, much less at the -$1K price point. Shinybow matrices seem to be solid beyond my wildest expectations, and the single catx extenders HD Supply provides with the HD-44 are sofar solid, even though they are not likely HDBaseT ($80/set).

I'm not trying to sell anybody of how I did things, or peddle HDTV Supply stuff, or bad mouth Monoprice. Just wanted to relay the path, and where I ended up. I still use Monoprice cables, but their matrix units have been "kind of works, with lots of quirks" at best, and downright maddening at their worst. Okay, so the solution I ended upo with was twice as much, but the experience (or lack thereof) is so darn worth it. I usually spend the real money where it matters, but sure went the wrong way at first on my HDMI distribution. I'm just happy for now, and will wait for solid 8x8 solutions come down in price before I change from the setup I have now.
Roberyu is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #332 of 422 Old 07-03-2013, 05:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberyu View Post

...passed with flying colors, with the longest run of 70 linear feet reported by the tester...
Got a TDR, eh?

Nothing wrong with plugging HDTV Supply. They are another reliable supplier and carry things monoprice doesn't.

I suspect the difference in results is due to the extenders and not the matrix. Dual cable extenders have a pretty spotty record. Single cable extenders seem to work more consistently, I think at least in part due to the fact that it requires a bit more engineering to get all the signals through on a single cable.
audiodane likes this.
Colm is offline  
post #333 of 422 Old 07-05-2013, 08:09 PM
Newbie
 
scgt1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
UPDATE

I ran the 100' monoprice cat 6 cable the rest of the way in the office behind the desks to where I could see how much I really needed. I hacked off the end I don't need (probably 25') Spliced a new end on hooked the boxes back up and viola picture with minimal Lines. Had a wild hair and changed the desktop resolution to 1280x768 and the lines went away. I've tried to set the tv side to 720p resolution and the computer display to 1680x1080 (native monitor max) and it keeps changing the output resolution. I don't know if this is an nvidia issue in the control panel or what but it's annoying as hell needing to keep my computer resolution so low just to make the tv work.

So obviously I need a repeater because it's not holding up over the 75' or so run meaning the cables are too long or just junk monoprice stuff or the boxes aren't that great of quality. One or the other who knows. I think I'll take my chances with a repeater though.

Should it get hooked up computer side or tv side though? Any tips on a decent powered repeater that isn't an arm and a leg?
scgt1 is offline  
post #334 of 422 Old 07-07-2013, 06:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgt1 View Post

...decent powered repeater...
IMHO there aren't any. You need a good extender setup or an active cable.
Colm is offline  
post #335 of 422 Old 07-09-2013, 01:10 PM
Senior Member
 
dminches's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ
Posts: 489
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 43 Post(s)
Liked: 23
This thread has a lot of information - thanks.

I didn't see any mention of the Gefen extenders. Is that because one can get the job done with less expensive units?

My issue is that my HDMI cable feeds my projector from a point right below my screen, through the wall and ceiling. However, now I have a new Bryston SP-3 and I want to run all the HDMI out of it. Unfortunately, the cable isn't long enough so I think I need to add an extender from the SP-3 to the cable location. The total distance is only about 15 feet. I can't think of another way to connect the 2.

David M.
dminches is offline  
post #336 of 422 Old 07-18-2013, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
audiodane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 740
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 57

Just coming back to check on things, and wow, this place has really taken off!  So many helpful comments far beyond what I could ever offer and so many people now involved who have really tried a lot of things out.  Thanks so much to everyone who's participating in this topic!

 

 

 

..dane

audiodane is offline  
post #337 of 422 Old 07-27-2013, 09:55 PM
Member
 
cjett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 91
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberyu View Post

Warning: This is LONG, and poorly written, so read-on if you want to torture yourself...
I ended up calling HDTV Supply to just relay my experiences, and see if their more expensive units would get me something more reliable, without costing the $3K that seemed common on their site. The guy told me that value-wise, it may be better to just go with a straight matrix and convert to CAT6 externally. A bit more equipment mess, but I can hide that. I ended up getting the 4x4 Shinybow HD-44 with the single CATx extenders you can select as an option when ordering. The whole thing cost me about $600 with 4 extenders. I thought he was exaggerating when he said it would all be rock solid like a tank with no glitches. That is a BOLD statement regarding HDMI extension and distribution. I guess I was biased from my experiences with lesser equipment, because I could have never imagined what I ended up with...

I installed the matrix, extenders, and all of my existing equipment, using the same cables I was all along. I was in utter shock that I was getting absolutely rock solid switching and extension of my HDMI sources. There was zero blanking or re-syncing of any of my destinations from other sinks coming online, switching in or out of any of the sources, etc. I mean no glitches at all period, on any of the destinations, regardless of what any other destination was doing. It was like all of the HDCP and EDID complications vanished from my HDMI switching/distribution experience, and I did not think that was possible, much less at the -$1K price point. Shinybow matrices seem to be solid beyond my wildest expectations, and the single catx extenders HD Supply provides with the HD-44 are sofar solid, even though they are not likely HDBaseT ($80/set).
.

Roberyu - can you post a link to the Shinybow and Catx extenders you purchased? I looked for a shinybow hd-44 and I don't see any such beast in their product list. Thanks in advance.
cjett is offline  
post #338 of 422 Old 07-29-2013, 10:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
EricN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,258
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 206
EricN is online now  
post #339 of 422 Old 07-30-2013, 02:18 PM
Newbie
 
edwardscp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Source-end: Onkyo TX-SR606 A/V Receiver
CatX Adapter: Monoprice HDMI® Over CAT5E / CAT6 Extender Wall Plate (Pair) w/ Built-In Backward IR Channel
CatX Cables: 30 foot Cat6a STP Patch cables (recommended by Monoprice)
Far-end: Sharp 60" LE757
Resolution(s) tested: 1080
Status: unsuccessful

It works if I connect the video source (U-Verse STB, blueray player, etc) directly to the wall plate without the Receiver in between. Unfortunately, that doesn't work for me because I use the receiver to output to surround speakers. I talked to monoprice, and they told me that these wall plates are not designed to be used with a Receiver, and that I would need to get an HDBaseT device or wall plate if I needed to use the receiver.

I contacted Tripp Lite's tech support to ask them if a similar HDMI to Cat5/6 wall plate from them has the same limitation, and they also said that their product would not work with a receiver.

Does anyone know the technical reason why the signal can't come from a receiver? If my understanding is correct, my receiver is an HDMI repeater (not just an HDMI switcher), so I would assume the signal coming from it is just as strong (in terms of volts) as the signal coming out of a cable box or dvd player...so what's the deal?
edwardscp is offline  
post #340 of 422 Old 07-30-2013, 02:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 64
When you talk about the AVR being a ‘Repeater’ that is in relation to how it gets involved with the HDCP (Content Encryption) handshake process - not an indication of it ‘boosting’ signal voltages.

https://www.facebook.com/TheMediaFactory/posts/294738857305184?comment_id=1586932&offset=0&total_comments=1

The second problem you are running into with the Wall Plates are that the design you are looking at are (badly) labelled as being Passive – they are not passive they are simply replying on your Source outputting enough power on the HDMI signal bus to power the wall plate electronics without interfering with powering the EDID chip in the TV (the job the power is designed for) and most AVRs won’t play ball!

Joe

If I've helped 'Like' me on Facebook - www.facebook.com/Octavainc

Joe Fernand is offline  
post #341 of 422 Old 07-30-2013, 02:41 PM
Newbie
 
edwardscp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post

When you talk about the AVR being a ‘Repeater’ that is in relation to how it gets involved with the HDCP (Content Encryption) handshake process - not an indication of it ‘boosting’ signal voltages.

https://www.facebook.com/TheMediaFactory/posts/294738857305184?comment_id=1586932&offset=0&total_comments=1

The second problem you are running into with the Wall Plates are that the design you are looking at are (badly) labelled as being Passive – they are not passive they are simply replying on your Source outputting enough power on the HDMI signal bus to power the wall plate electronics without interfering with powering the EDID chip in the TV (the job the power is designed for) and most AVRs won’t play ball!

Joe

Interesting...thanks for the insight! Any recommendations on a solution? HDBaseT is very expensive...is it the only reliable way to do this?

Unfortunately, I can't easily run new cables. I would need to make a whole lot of holes in newly hung, and taped, and painted sheet rock. If I had known these wall plates don't play ball, I would have probably also run HDMI cable in the wall, and run it all through conduit so I could easily pull new stuff later.
edwardscp is offline  
post #342 of 422 Old 07-31-2013, 08:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 64
HDBaseT is very stable - especially so on longer cable runs, though you can still run into handshake problems due to HDCP interoperability.

Dual CAT done correctly is also very stable - though you are limiting your choices big time if you insist on the wall plate format.

We have thousands of these devices running without issues (including on the Output side of Onkyo AVR’s) - http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI%20ethernet%20converters.html

Joe
edwardscp likes this.

If I've helped 'Like' me on Facebook - www.facebook.com/Octavainc

Joe Fernand is offline  
post #343 of 422 Old 07-31-2013, 02:06 PM
Member
 
Chrushev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Hello everyone, we bought a house and I wanted to run all of the A/V and gaming equipment out of a closet. I have 4 total runs.

Here is my overall setup:

AVhouseSetup_zps0852689c.png~original

My goal is to get 1 to 4 devices to broadcast to any one of 3 places in the house (Dining Room, Living Room and Master bedroom).

I ran dual 23AWG CAT6 500MHz UTP (monoprice ID# 8102) cable through the attic to all of the locations, terminated them with T568A standard. Because of how the attic is set up I have the runs come within about a foot of some power lines, there is no way to really get around that, there are just power lines all over the attic.

I got HDMI via CAT6 wall plates (Monoprice ID 8009) and tested it with my longest run (Closet -> Dining room) by hooking up WDTV straight into the wall plate in the closet. Worked perfectly, no drop outs, everything was running as if the run was 3 feet via HDMI smile.gif Was super satisfied.

I proceeded to hook up rest of the runs and everything worked great when devices were hooked up into the wall plates directly (tested with Xbox 360 and WDTV).

I was finalizing my setup and connected everything through the Matrix switch 4x4 from monoprice (ID# 5704 - 4X4 True Matrix HDMI® Powered Switch w/ Remote (Rev. 3.0)) everything seems to work fine; however if I flip the lights near the center of the house the signal will either drop or have a hickup (for 2-5 seconds). With 2 particualr light switches completely cutting the video in the dining room (while master bedroom gets artifacting). Not all switches effect it the same, some just flicker the signal, but these two (can lights in the living room) completely cut the signal to the dining room.

I also noticed that if I hook up just the Dining room to the Matrix switch then those same lights that would cut the signal completely (black screen) now interrupt it for about 5 seconds but then the picture comes back. So the more outputs Matrix is splitting to the worse the problem gets. A/C kicking in doesnt seem to cause any kind of issue.

Now the kicker is that when I plug the devices directly into the HDMI wall plates (bypassing the Matrix) there are absolutely no issues, ive had my fiance and I flip all of the problematic switches at once back and forth like 100 times as fast as we could... perfect signal, no dropouts.

I figured that the issue may be the power in the plates (signal getting split and losing strength in the matrix) so I purchased powered plates from monoprice (ID# 8200), plugged in 5v power on both ends, same exact behavior.

I am using 5foot 24 AWG CL2 High Speed HDMI cables for all connections (monoprice ID# 4966) but they seem to perform the same as standard 28 AWG cables.

Now here are my conclusions. Since the wallplates + CAT6 works perfectly with the device plugged in directly into them, it doesnt seem like the cabling or the plates are an issue (especially since powering the plates doesnt make a difference).

The issue is clearly between the Matrix and the wall plate. How do I solve this? Its not the signal strength right? because powering plates externally makes no difference...

I considered the following,
- Rerunning CAT6 with shielded CAT6, but based on my testing CAT6 runs dont seem to be the problem? And based on my research shielded cable tends to do little if anything in a household environment and is really meant for heavy duty factory environments.
- Getting different HDMI extenders - again, based on my testing it doesnt seem like these are the issue since they work fine without the Matrix powered and unpowered (and trying 3 different sets yielded same results, although they seem to use similar tech. monoprice IDs 8008, 8009, 8200)
- Trying to make the run shorter by cutting off 5 to 10 feet of slack I left in the attic, but I am doubtful this will help? Dining room being a bit longer run does behave worse than master bedroom, but Im thinking that is the end device (TV) dealing with messed up signal differently, one displays artifacts (Vizio 47 inch tv in master, other ASUS 24 inch monitor just showing black screen when signal has problems in dining room).
- Re-terminating CAT6 with T568B since thats what all the materials seem to indicate (but I think they are just out of date), did this on both ends of dining room run, same exact results (doesnt make a difference).

And more costly solution would be to go with http://www.hdtvsupply.com/4x4-hdmi-router.html#axzz2ZKsvXGq9 that was mentioned in one of the above posts and hope that it works better... that solution would be around $600, while my current solution is about $250. I am really hoping to be able to fix this, because 99% of the puzzle works fine, its just adding the Matrix to the picture that is causing problems. I am on a budget and would like to get this done for under $300 but if spending $600 means I will get much better products (more features and performance) then I could stretch my budget there... but I really rather not, if I can get this to work id rather upgrade to better solutions 5 years down the road when they are much cheaper.

Ive been trying to troubleshoot this for about a week, read through this entire thread, very useful and informative! Pretty crazy that were still dealing with the same issues 3 (almost 4) years later!

Any kind of feedback would be appreciated!
Chrushev is offline  
post #344 of 422 Old 07-31-2013, 03:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 3,514
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 345 Post(s)
Liked: 381
Monoprice's cheap wallplates are hit or miss and when running through any type of receiver or switcher they become far more spotty then reliable. The issue is, as an educated guess, entirely in the wall plates you are using, and not with anything else at all.

I would option up to a HD-Base-T solution to see if it fixes all of your issues, because I would expect it to.

This product falls into an entirely different category of quality compared to what you are currently using and is the industry standard for long run HDMI over cat cabling:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8122&seq=1&format=2

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #345 of 422 Old 07-31-2013, 04:12 PM
Member
 
Chrushev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post

Monoprice's cheap wallplates are hit or miss and when running through any type of receiver or switcher they become far more spotty then reliable. The issue is, as an educated guess, entirely in the wall plates you are using, and not with anything else at all.

I would option up to a HD-Base-T solution to see if it fixes all of your issues, because I would expect it to.

This product falls into an entirely different category of quality compared to what you are currently using and is the industry standard for long run HDMI over cat cabling:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8122&seq=1&format=2

But why is it that the plates work just fine without the Matrix Switch? What is it that happens with the signal inside the Matrix? Why cant it just output the same exact signal it receives? That signal is good enough for the plates since there are no issues at all with using just the plates without the Matrix Switch...

Id love to go to HD-Base-T solution but those are crazy expensive! These seem to be rated to 6 times the distance I need to run. Are there perhaps cheaper ones rated for shorter distances? I need to run 50-60 feet maximum, and dont need to pay premium for 300 foot extenders.
Chrushev is offline  
post #346 of 422 Old 07-31-2013, 04:46 PM
Super Moderator
 
markrubin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 23,143
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Liked: 520
^^^

you should try one HD-Base-T device: you can always return it if it does not work

none of the other solutions you list are likely to fix the issue: and they are a lot more work and more expensive

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle
markrubin is offline  
post #347 of 422 Old 07-31-2013, 05:09 PM
Newbie
 
Geoff0522's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ok, I am just about fed up. I have a 25 foot run in my RV from the entertainment system to the TV and I started with a wireless system to get HDMI there. That worked ok but it was slow to connect when I switched from DirectV DVR to Tivo to Blueray player, so I purchaed an inexpensive HDMI to Cat5e system which worke well, right out of the box, using 25 foot hook-up cables (braided, not solid, in-wall cabling). That was good for a couple months, and then a close-by lightning strike caused it to fail. I had to check all of my components but eventually I determined everything was working right except for the HDMI signal to the TV.

So, I went back to using the wireless setup and it worked fine. Eventually, I wanted to get back to the wired set up, so I purchased new HDMI - Cat5e baluns and, no signal. So I replaced the two Cat5e cables I used for the run. No signal. Now I have purchased yet another set of baluns, these ones have a power connection on the receiver end and...no signal. I have tried sending the signal to a different TV and...no signal. It works fine using the wireless system and I am just replacing the wireless transmitter and receiver with the wired baluns and cables and...no signal. Looks like I am stuck with the wireless set up but I would like to try to understand why this is no longer working. Am I just stuck with a bunch of garbage component purchases? Any ideas out there?

The new baluns are from Sabrent. The old ones (both sets) were just generic. No apparent manufacturer listed on them at all.
Geoff0522 is offline  
post #348 of 422 Old 07-31-2013, 06:53 PM
Member
 
Chrushev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I am looking at this HDbaseT solution from Monoprice, seems to be the cheapest solution available out there ($190) per receiver/sender pair. These units are from 2011, how are there no newer/better solutions on Monoprice with PoE and ARC etc? And how have they not redesigned those obnoxious IR dongles?

link - http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8122&seq=1&format=2
Chrushev is offline  
post #349 of 422 Old 07-31-2013, 09:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 3,514
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 345 Post(s)
Liked: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrushev View Post

I am looking at this HDbaseT solution from Monoprice, seems to be the cheapest solution available out there ($190) per receiver/sender pair. These units are from 2011, how are there no newer/better solutions on Monoprice with PoE and ARC etc? And how have they not redesigned those obnoxious IR dongles?

link - http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8122&seq=1&format=2
Yes, those are the ones I have linked to above and they work phenomenally well. I have personally tested them to beyond 300' with 1080p video over a single cat-5e connection.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #350 of 422 Old 07-31-2013, 09:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 3,514
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 345 Post(s)
Liked: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff0522 View Post

Ok, I am just about fed up. I have a 25 foot run in my RV from the entertainment system to the TV and I started with a wireless system to get HDMI there. That worked ok but it was slow to connect when I switched from DirectV DVR to Tivo to Blueray player, so I purchaed an inexpensive HDMI to Cat5e system which worke well, right out of the box, using 25 foot hook-up cables (braided, not solid, in-wall cabling). That was good for a couple months, and then a close-by lightning strike caused it to fail. I had to check all of my components but eventually I determined everything was working right except for the HDMI signal to the TV.

So, I went back to using the wireless setup and it worked fine. Eventually, I wanted to get back to the wired set up, so I purchased new HDMI - Cat5e baluns and, no signal. So I replaced the two Cat5e cables I used for the run. No signal. Now I have purchased yet another set of baluns, these ones have a power connection on the receiver end and...no signal. I have tried sending the signal to a different TV and...no signal. It works fine using the wireless system and I am just replacing the wireless transmitter and receiver with the wired baluns and cables and...no signal. Looks like I am stuck with the wireless set up but I would like to try to understand why this is no longer working. Am I just stuck with a bunch of garbage component purchases? Any ideas out there?

The new baluns are from Sabrent. The old ones (both sets) were just generic. No apparent manufacturer listed on them at all.
At 25' can you not just run a good HDMI cable? I'm using HDMI cables at 50'+ without any issues whatsoever.

The cheapie wallplate adapters are weak, to poor, to worthless in my experience - and I've been using them for years.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #351 of 422 Old 08-01-2013, 06:32 AM
Newbie
 
Geoff0522's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post

At 25' can you not just run a good HDMI cable? I'm using HDMI cables at 50'+ without any issues whatsoever.

The cheapie wallplate adapters are weak, to poor, to worthless in my experience - and I've been using them for years.

I tried a $40, 25 foot HDMI cable from Lowes and the signal would cut out every so often. For the Blueray output, it would blink on and off continuously. Since this method is supposed to work to 200 feet, I assumed it would be "good enough".
Geoff0522 is offline  
post #352 of 422 Old 08-01-2013, 08:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 64
Crushev

HDMI Extenders – ditch any ‘passive only’ designs, that’s just asking for trouble.

Try powering everything Off at the wall then hook up a single source to the Matrix and the Matrix to just one of your (externally powered) Extender wall plates then power on the TV, Wall Plate, Matrix and Source – do you still have the problem with the image cutting out when you flick a light switch?

If yes you may want to look at installing a system earth and connect it to the Matrix.

Joe

If I've helped 'Like' me on Facebook - www.facebook.com/Octavainc

Joe Fernand is offline  
post #353 of 422 Old 08-01-2013, 08:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jautor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,404
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff0522 View Post

I tried a $40, 25 foot HDMI cable from Lowes and the signal would cut out every so often. For the Blueray output, it would blink on and off continuously. Since this method is supposed to work to 200 feet, I assumed it would be "good enough".

For that run, a 25' Redmere cable from Monoprice would be the right answer... That will work more reliably than a non-Redmere cable for this application. And the cable is physically small, too. Make sure you install it in the correct direction (that matters!!!).

Rock Creek Theater -- CIH, Panamorph, Martin Logan, SVS PB2000, Carada Masquerade, Grafik Eye, Bar table, Green Glue, JVC RS50 
Theater build photos: http://photobucket.com/autor-ht
jautor is offline  
post #354 of 422 Old 08-01-2013, 11:43 AM
Member
 
Chrushev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post

Crushev

HDMI Extenders – ditch any ‘passive only’ designs, that’s just asking for trouble.

Try powering everything Off at the wall then hook up a single source to the Matrix and the Matrix to just one of your (externally powered) Extender wall plates then power on the TV, Wall Plate, Matrix and Source – do you still have the problem with the image cutting out when you flick a light switch?

If yes you may want to look at installing a system earth and connect it to the Matrix.

Joe

Thanks for the input Joe.

Yes tuning everything off and turning on Matrix, source, powered plates and TV still causes those dropout with the lights, but not as bad as with 2 destinations (2 TVs) it seems that the more destination devices there are the worse it gets. I am assuming its because now instead of one 50 foot run getting effected by some sort of electic discharge from the house grid now there is another set, which amplifies the problem.

Last night I terminated 2 50 foot cables with 568B standard, and simply ran them across the house on the floor. Same exact behavior as in the wall cable (aka works perfectly until i go switching light switches in the house). Tried powering the plates on either end too, no difference. There is nothing below the floor (concrete slab), whole 8-15 feet before the closest cables in the ceiling, and drywall and at least 5 feet to the closest in wall wiring. Basically confirming my fear, re-running wire is not going to help, and shielded wire is probably not going to do it either. So I put in an order for 4 of those HDbaseT Monoprice extenders (Monoprice ID 8122). They should be here tomorrow. I will report back with my experience. Original solution was $250, but it appears that in order to get anything remotely good this kind of project needs at least $1000 budget frown.gif... I guess a good analogy would be wiring the entire house for X amount of money with 10baseT hubs, versus wiring it with Gigabit switches for X*10. First option works but in order to do it the right way you need to spend more...

Can anyone elaborate on why wall plate (non HDbaseT) extenders are not so good? I mean there are 2x CAT6 cables, potential for 20Gbps bandwidth, power on both ends to boost the signal, yet they still have issues? Why? It seems like they should be the ideal setup? I mean there is enough cable for any kind of bandwidth between the 2 cables and there is power on both ends to boost any signal loss.

Also can anyone elaborate on how HDbaseT manages to cram 10 times the bandwidth of an HDMI connection into 4x twisted pair? HDMI has 19 pins, some of them are not used, why does HDMI use so many pins if the same thing can be accomplished with less than half? Also how is there no compression if the HDbaseT has to change the signal to make it fit into a CAT6 pipe?

Thanks!

PS - according to my research (and wayback machine) it appears that HDbaseT solutions have stayed statically priced ever since they came out (at least on Monoprice, which is at least 1/2 of the price of any other place). I am guessing this is due to these kind of setups being primarily used in businesses (where budgets are in thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars), and on top of that these set ups being kind of niche, so the demand is not really there for mass production and price competitiveness. Extenders I bought are 189$ per pair August 1/2013, they were 189$ a pair in 2011 when they came out (I guess you could say that they are a few bucks cheaper due to inflation and 189$ not being worth as much as it did in 2011 but thats pennies). Basically what I am trying to say is that if anyone is waiting to pull the trigger on HDbaseT for a few years for prices to drop, it doesnt look like that will happen anytime soon... businesses would love to spend this little money on them, home owners going for them are few and far in between... so yeah.. just a thought...
Chrushev is offline  
post #355 of 422 Old 08-01-2013, 11:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 64
‘Can anyone elaborate on why wall plate (non HDbaseT) extenders are not so good?’ – because some of them are poorly designed and implemented, you cannot say they are all poor quality based on sampling just one brand!

HDBaseT packetizes the HDMI signal to send it out over your CAT cable in manageable chunks – unlike HDMI which is non-Packetized, the down side being you produce a lot of heat with HDBaseT!

http://www.valens.com/products

Joe

If I've helped 'Like' me on Facebook - www.facebook.com/Octavainc

Joe Fernand is offline  
post #356 of 422 Old 08-01-2013, 12:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jautor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,404
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrushev View Post

Can anyone elaborate on why wall plate (non HDbaseT) extenders are not so good? I mean there are 2x CAT6 cables, potential for 20Gbps bandwidth, power on both ends to boost the signal, yet they still have issues? Why? It seems like they should be the ideal setup? I mean there is enough cable for any kind of bandwidth between the 2 cables and there is power on both ends to boost any signal loss.

It's a blanket statement about those types of products. In general, the wallplate-based ones don't seem to work as well. YMMV. But there's a high count of questions here that start with "I have an HDMI wallplate extender that's not working very well..."
Quote:
Also can anyone elaborate on how HDbaseT manages to cram 10 times the bandwidth of an HDMI connection into 4x twised pair? HDMI has 19 pins, some of them are not used, why does HDMI use so many pins if the same thing can be accomplished with less than half? Also how is there no compression if the HDbaseT has to change the signal to make it fit into a CAT6 pipe?

The HDMI-over-cat5 extenders are just adapting the HDMI signals to the different cable type. HDBaseT works completely differently, by borrowing the 10Gb Ethernet transceiver technology to send the HDMI datastream over the single cat5e/cat6 cable. Since it's building the stream, it can also insert the other stuff into the mix (100Mb Ethernet packets, IR, RS232).

The reason HDBaseT can do this on one category cable compared to the big HDMI connector/cable is that it's about a decade newer. Moore's Law and all that. I'm sure the Valens guys would love to fully replace all HDMI connections with HDBaseT, which would be a compelling story for all of us. Speaking to them at their booth once, they also confirmed that the chip(s) are smart enough and wired correctly to be able to tell the difference between a "normal" Ethernet connection and an HDBaseT one. So the TV manufacturers that already put the Ethernet jack on board for Internet access wouldn't even need to add a jack - one RJ45 can do double-duty.
Quote:
PS - according to my research (and wayback machine) it appears that HDbaseT solutions have stayed statically priced ever since they came out (at least on Monoprice, which is at least 1/2 of the price of any other place). I am guessing this is due to these kind of setups being primarily used in businesses (where budgets are in thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars), and on top of that these set ups being kind of niche, so the demand is not really there for mass production and price competitiveness.

It's still a low volume business for the semiconductor guys - and Valens makes the chip(s) - I don't know if there are other licensees making products yet (or if there will be). So they've got a lot of R&D to re-coup, but yeah, I'd like to see the capability show up everywhere, too.

Jeff

Rock Creek Theater -- CIH, Panamorph, Martin Logan, SVS PB2000, Carada Masquerade, Grafik Eye, Bar table, Green Glue, JVC RS50 
Theater build photos: http://photobucket.com/autor-ht
jautor is offline  
post #357 of 422 Old 08-01-2013, 03:26 PM
Member
 
Chrushev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post

‘Can anyone elaborate on why wall plate (non HDbaseT) extenders are not so good?’ – because some of them are poorly designed and implemented, you cannot say they are all poor quality based on sampling just one brand!

HDBaseT packetizes the HDMI signal to send it out over your CAT cable in manageable chunks – unlike HDMI which is non-Packetized, the down side being you produce a lot of heat with HDBaseT!

http://www.valens.com/products

Joe

Hmm actually they specifically say they do NOT use packets or ethernet protocol --> http://www.hdbaset.org/technology

Chrushev is offline  
post #358 of 422 Old 08-05-2013, 12:33 PM
Member
 
Chrushev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Reporting back:

Setup:



My first attempt was using 3 different wall plate NON HDbaseT devices (all from Monoprice), which worked pretty well; however flipping switches in the house would create interference that messed up the signal. Re-runs of cable did not help, and even simply putting the 50 feet of cable on the floor in the living room (walls and lots of distance from any other wiring had the same results). Short cables didnt have a problem (CAT5e or CAT6 less than 10 feet) were fine; but that was way too short, my shortest run was 30 feet. Power and unpowered wall plates made no difference. (You can see me describing my plight in the post here CLICKY

TIP#1 If you have interference when A/C goes on or flipping light switches, instead of rewiring (which may be a waste of effort and time), take (make another one) cable of about the same length as the one that is having issues, and just run it through your house hallways/living room etc, wherever the other cable goes, see if it has same issues. If it does its a 99.9% chance that re-running wire in any other place in the house is not going to help, the interference is everywhere.

The above solution was about $250. After trying several different sets of wall plates (Monoprice ID 8008, 8009, 8200) all with same results (I later realized that they would not even push 1080p signal over 40 feet, my devices reverted to 720p, so when I thought I was testing with 1080p I was actually using 720p. Switchign to 1080p my Master Bedroom TV would not get signal).

So after not having any luck with the wall plates, and after reading this entire thread I decided to pony up some major cash and get HDbaseT extenders. It didnt seem like anyting other than HDbaseT would work. So my budget went from $250 to about $950. I got the cheapest HDbaseT extenders I could find (Monoprice ID 8122) at the time of this post $189 per pair (compared to $16 to $18 per pair for wall plate extenders).

I already had 2x CAT6 UTP (550Mhz) wires running to all of the locations, so I tucked the extra wire inside the wall (since HDbaseT uses 1x CAT5e or CAT6) and reterminated all of the ones I am going to use with 568B standard (since thats what it states to use in the manual). Plugged the devices in and they just worked. Fiancee and I went around flipping as many lights at the same time as fast as we could and the signal was solid. And it looked better too (since it was at 1080p 60Hz now instead of 720p). Ive spent this past weekend hooking rest of them up, and making the closet organized.

Everything works great!

At this point I feel like the extra expense was way worth it. The spotty performance of the wall plates was annoying, and who knows how it would change over time, but these HDbaseT extenders are solid, the build quality is very good. And performance is superb. And since I already have double CAT6 UTP running everywhere, if I ever need to upgrade to HDbaseT that uses 2 CAT6 cables (for 8k or whatnot) I should be ready to go.

So thats my experience.

TIP#2: While CAT5e will work with HDbaseT, based on reviews and everything Ive read online CAT6 should be used if you are running a new run. Prices are almost the same. Some people reported in reviews spotty IR, but all of them had 5e instead of 6. May be related.

TIP#3: UTP should be good enough for HDbaseT, shielded cable will provide little to no benefit in a household environment and actually may cause issues if not grounded properly. Just run the UTP at least a foot away from any kind of electrical wiring, when running down walls run it on the other side of a stud from electrical. My attic is a spiderweb of electrical, and some places on the 40 and 60 foot runs I have electrical come within 5 inches of the CAT6UTP, doesn't seem to create any issues at all.

TIP#3:Terminate everything as 568/B not A, even though B is a legacy standard and A will work, who knows what is the reasoning behind it, but every single extender HDbaseT and non HDbaseT that Ive seen specifically call for 568B termination. WOr, Or, WGr, Bl, WhBl, Gr, WhBr, Br

What I learned: Basically if you are going to run HDMI over CAT6 at this point in time go straight for HDbaseT solution, it is more pricey, but it is a much better technology. The amount of headache non HDbaseT solutions will give you is not worth the savings. I guess a good way to put it is, non HDbaseT extenders are legacy products, there is a much better solution available in this day and age. Think of it as a Quill Pen versus Ball point pen. Yes both will allow you to write a letter, but a Quill is a huge headache when compared to ball point pen. Quill pen is legacy, and eventually got replaced entirely by a ball point pen. I see 10 years from now HDbaseT being the standard for HDMI over CAT6 with new technologies available to cover the high end.

Hopefully my experience is helpful smile.gif
Vin likes this.
Chrushev is offline  
post #359 of 422 Old 08-05-2013, 01:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Great post.

T568A or T568B makes no difference. I have this straight from an engineer at Valens.

Yes, Cat 6 instead of Cat 5e should be a no-brainer. Just be aware that some installations with long runs may need Cat 6a to be reliable. HDBaseT technology is very similar to 10GbaseT Ethernet.
Colm is offline  
post #360 of 422 Old 08-05-2013, 02:19 PM
QuadMersed in bass!
 
giomania's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,947
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post

Great post.

T568A or T568B makes no difference. I have this straight from an engineer at Valens.

Yes, Cat 6 instead of Cat 5e should be a no-brainer. Just be aware that some installations with long runs may need Cat 6a to be reliable. HDBaseT technology is very similar to 10GbaseT Ethernet.

Thanks for the info on the termination standards. I would add that now all cable is created equal, so Cat 6 or Cat 5e depends on the cable manufacturer. I only use Belden, and would put their Cat 5e variants up against most other Cat 6 cables, especially for longer runs. They publish test results for their cable, so you can see what each particular model was rated at. That is my $.02.

Mark
giomania is offline  
Reply Home A/V Distribution

Tags
Iogear Vga Cat5e 6 Audio Video Receiver Gve140rx Black
Gear in this thread - Gve140rx by PriceGrabber.com



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off