HDMI over Cat5e problems and solutions, read before posting - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 406 Old 05-15-2011, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

I have had excellent results with the Audio Control BVHD-20 with 3D, 1080p/60, audio back channel, etc. The units come with Cat6 terminators.

David, sorry but there's just too little information here for me to post your results... can you provide some more details?

- Source-end: ?
- CatX Cables: ?
- Far-end: ?
- Resolution(s) tested: ?

thanks,
..dane


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post #182 of 406 Old 05-15-2011, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I have updated the first post with everything up to today (15 May 2011). Thanks to theOriginalGuru for sending me a PM requesting me to update this thread once more. Things have been extremely busy both at work and home and it's the first time in many months I've even logged in to AVS. Sorry for the delay!

Some good information has been added since my last update (Feb). For what it's worth, regarding the RapidRun 5V Voltage Inserter, that solution did NOT work for me with my DVDO Edge video processor based source configuration. I am so glad that someone has found a configuration where it DOES seem to help (dramatically I might add).

Also for what it's worth, I may be selling both my DVDO Edge and my Marantz SR8001 combination and try to upgrade to an SR6005 or hopefully SR7005 instead. Simplifies the setup and removes a heat-source, both of which are good things.

It might again be a while before I get back here next. Feel free to drop me another PM when this thread gets to a point of needing attention. I get email notification of PMs so I'll get your notification even without logging in.

thanks again, and good luck everyone!
..dane


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post #183 of 406 Old 05-17-2011, 05:05 PM
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I purchased one of the products someone had success with in this thread that didnt look too cheap (metal housing, well made, etc) and was hoping for the best, it was the NXG Technology NX-HDEXT160-1.

I am getting great video at 1080p but the audio is only stereo. I have browsed the internet and it seems this is a common problem with hdmi over ethernet extenders. Not having full bitstream multi-channel audio kills this for me, as I only got it to watch blu-rays on my projector which is not located near my AV rack that I stream movies from.

Quite disappointing from a $100 after shipping product.

Does anyone know of any devices in this thread that certainly support 1080p and multi-channel audio?
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post #184 of 406 Old 05-18-2011, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Just curious, why do you need a full bitstream going to your projector? I'm assuming your BDP routes through a receiver first, then on to your projector, right? In which case you don't really need any audio at all in the video stream...?

..dane


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post #185 of 406 Old 05-18-2011, 04:00 PM
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Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, my receiver is in the same room as the projector & speakers, but my media servers and players are downstairs in another room. I am plugging the receiving end of this balun into my Onyko.
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post #186 of 406 Old 05-18-2011, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vullcan View Post
Does anyone know of any devices in this thread that certainly support 1080p and multi-channel audio?
They all support multi-channel audio if the source sends it. The question you should be asking is why is the source not sending multi-channel audio. What the source sends depends on the capabilities of the source, and the capabilities of the sink as encoded in the E-EDID. One way of force it to work, assuming both the source and the sink support multi-channel audio, might be to use something like the Gefen HDMI Detective to ensure the E-EDID gets through to the source unmangled.
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post #187 of 406 Old 05-18-2011, 07:15 PM
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That sounds like a good idea but I would hate to spend another $100 and add another link to my chain that could fail or will have to be upgraded later (if I dont have to).

Your talk about the E-EDID got me thinking and I discovered the source is seeing "SH4241-1" as the device, which when googled returns a Ben-Q projector.

I do not have a BenQ projector, and when I bypass the NXG extender and plug my reciever directly in I see the correct device, my EPSON projector.

I have tried setting the receiver to not pass through the HDMI E-EDID of the projector but this does not seem to matter.

Just plugging the Transmitter portion of the device in without the cat6 cable connected still shows the "SH4241-1" as being active and connected, leading me to believe NXG somehow programmed this E-EDID into their transmitter device and is not allowing other E-EDID's behind the device to pass through.

I wonder if I can simply fix this by using another product instead of adding that E-EDID spoofer device into my chain?
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post #188 of 406 Old 05-18-2011, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vullcan View Post

I wonder if I can simply fix this by using another product instead of adding that E-EDID spoofer device into my chain?

It is worth a try. FWIW the way data comes back from the sink to source seems to be a considerable source of problems with extenders.
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post #189 of 406 Old 05-20-2011, 05:12 PM
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I tried a cheap monoprice extender but that didnt work at all!

Thinking that I did have a quality $100 extender on my hands, (just with a poor EDID design flaw) I decided to give the GEFEN detective plus a try and after 30 minutes of fiddling I was able to get it to work!

Cloning the Onkyo RX-A700 with Epson 8350 projector plugged in (that works fine when plugging my nvidia gtx480 graphics card directly into the reciever) did not work. It showed up in windows like it normally does as Epson-PJ1 but no audio or video when switching to that display.

I then tried the dip switch settings on the detective and using setting #5 (the one for 1080p, 8 channel PCM / DTS / AC3) only worked up to 1080i, there was no option for 1080p in the dropdown! Amusingly it did have the audio portion working fine so for the first time in weeks I sat there in darkness and played a multi-channel audio track.

Just when I was about to give up I thought, what if I can clone the Onkyo with no display plugged into it?

Sure enough, my device now shows up in windows as a "RX-A700" and while the native res is 1080i, it did have the option for 1080p and it works flawlessly with up-to 7.1 sound in the sound options menu.

It sucks having to have this huge chain of devices, but it sure beats a 80 foot HDMI run that would sometimes lose signal.

I would also like to note that there is no perceptible lag induced that would deter gaming.

Perhaps you could update the first page to note that the NXG Technology NX-HDEXT160-1 does work for 1080p, but has a programmed EDID for stereo sound.

After talking to NXG via email, they were not aware of the issue, however they did note that most customers use it to send video to a projector so I can understand it might have been overlooked during the design of the device, and why they chose to use a EDID from a popular projector.
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post #190 of 406 Old 05-20-2011, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vullcan View Post

...a poor EDID design flaw...

I'll say! An extender is a HDMI repeater. HDMI repeaters are supposed to present the capabilities of the downstream sink to the source.
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post #191 of 406 Old 05-20-2011, 09:26 PM
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I thought who would pay $300-600 for an HDMI extender (especially a cat5 version) when these cat 6 single cable extenders can be had for less than $100...

you get what you pay for?
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post #192 of 406 Old 05-23-2011, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vullcan View Post

Perhaps you could update the first page to note that the NXG Technology NX-HDEXT160-1 does work for 1080p, but has a programmed EDID for stereo sound.

First post updated with a notation referencing these posts. Thank you vullcan for the update and all your hard work to determine the root cause and workaround!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vullcan View Post

I thought who would pay $300-600 for an HDMI extender (especially a cat5 version) when these cat 6 single cable extenders can be had for less than $100...

you get what you pay for?

There are the occasional bucks of this trend (Outlaw Audio and Oppo Digital being two examples) who offer a much greater bang-per-buck, but in general the rule usually applies. I imagine however for most people (myself included) the "long-haul" portion of the HDMI chain is after the receiver, so stereo audio is just fine.

I'm sorry you got bit by a seemingly simple design flaw; have you recommended they change their EDID moving forward?

..dane


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post #193 of 406 Old 07-11-2011, 02:52 PM
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Anybody have any experience with Audio Authority HMX-244 4x4 HDMI Matrix over Cat5

I only found one thread referring to it but nobody that had any thoughts on it.


Or Any other recommendations for a 4x4 HDMI Matrix with Cat5 outputs ?

Thanks!
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post #194 of 406 Old 07-16-2011, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H(A&T) View Post

Anybody have any experience with Audio Authority HMX-244 4x4 HDMI Matrix over Cat5

I only found one thread referring to it but nobody that had any thoughts on it.


Or Any other recommendations for a 4x4 HDMI Matrix with Cat5 outputs ?

Thanks!

Hey,

I've been using the Octava 4x4 HDMI/Ethernet Matrix Switch for about 2 years now with no issues at all (although their prices seemed to have jumped from the time I purchased).

My longest run is about 90-100ft and it works well. The HDMI receivers are connected directly to my TV (so only 2.0 audio), but am sending 1080p video to all sources w/o any issues.

Edit: Looking at the Audio Authority unit you posted, it does look very nice, especially the receiver units with the ability to change inputs directly from the unit itself and with it's own remote...the price is a lot better as well.

Take Care


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post #195 of 406 Old 07-25-2011, 11:18 AM
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#1
- Source-end: Motorola DCH3200 HD Cable Box
- CatX Adapter: Monoprice HDMI Extender
- CatX Cables: Monoprice 100' CAT6 UTP patch cables
- Far-end: Sony 60A3000 LCD RPTV
- Resolution(s) tested: 1080i with 2-channel audio
- Status: no dropouts experienced

#2
- Source-end: HTPC, Nvidia GT240
- CatX Adapter: Monoprice HDMI Extender
- CatX Cables: 2x Monoprice 100' CAT6 UTP patch cables
- Far-end: Sony 60A3000 LCD RPTV
- Resolution(s) tested: 1080p24, 1080p60; with 2-channel audio
- Status: has intermittent dropouts @60p, no issues @24p

I'm getting a replacement unit from Monoprice to see if it is the unit itself. May have to buy a higher quality extender for 1080p60 to work without issues over 100'.


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post #196 of 406 Old 07-25-2011, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N3W813 View Post

CatX Cables: Monoprice 100' CAT6 UTP patch cables

At 100 feet you will see a marked improvement with solid core cables when attempting 1080p/60hz. Skin effect is more apparent at longer distances. I'm not aware of anywhere that sells these cables already terminated, but custom patch cables made from bulk (ie 1000ft spool) solid core is an option with some retailers.

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post #197 of 406 Old 08-01-2011, 11:57 AM
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I'm about to pull the trigger on getting a component matrix switch (thinking HDR44kt), since I'm not convinced that HDMI is 100% reliable.

Regardless, if I were to go HDMI, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Cat6 UTP would be better than what I ran throughout my house (CAT6A SSTP). If so, why?

Also, other than the HDR44KT, is there a better (spelled cheaper) solution out there, where I can also push/receive audio and IR?

I really wish the HDMI over IP stuff worked...and was affordable.
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post #198 of 406 Old 08-01-2011, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfeferman View Post

...Cat6 UTP would be better than what I ran throughout my house (CAT6A SSTP). If so, why?

Actually, the equivalent of HDMI cable would be Cat 7. Cat 6a would be a good second choice. Maybe it is because extenders don't have grounded jacks. Maybe the increased capacitance of a shielded cable. But ungrounded Cat 6a will likely work just like Cat 6.
Quote:


I really wish the HDMI over IP stuff...(

There is no true HDMI over IP. Every product uses compression. You would need a minimum of a 10Gb ethernet link for uncompressed HDMI.
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post #199 of 406 Old 08-01-2011, 01:56 PM
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I know Jautor will respond sooner or later (Hi Jeff!), but I'm wondering, is component is still the way to go, given the headaches with HDMI?

Now I just have to figure out how to cut all those darn blue electrical boxes out of my new walls, thinking I was going to save some money...
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post #200 of 406 Old 08-01-2011, 02:18 PM
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slightly OT but I found an alternaive solution to transmitting HDMI over CAT5:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

I have not done range testing yet but it seems to work well
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post #201 of 406 Old 08-01-2011, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfeferman View Post

...Regardless, if I were to go HDMI, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Cat6 UTP would be better than what I ran throughout my house (CAT6A SSTP). If so, why?...

In house testing at work has shown the following to be problematic for HDMI/DVI over CAT cable extenders:

1) stranded UTP at > 75ft (for 1080p/60)
2) small wire guages like 28 awg
3) transmission ratings < 500Mhz
4) CATx flat wire
5) poorly terminated cables
6) coiled up cable kinked due to pulling during install
7) PC's with Display Port to HDMI adapters (DP-HDMI)
I can't remember off hand if twisted foil pairs are a problem with LVDS signals like they are with analog RGB video due to increased capacitance. A BERT test will usually weed out most cable problems.
YMMV as they say, but I've found the above to be true more often than not.

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post #202 of 406 Old 08-10-2011, 08:29 AM
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First of all I want to says thanks to the OP for putting together this thread. I kept getting dropouts everytime anything powered up. I thought I was crazy for the longest time because I couldn't figure out what was causing the issue.

Here's a summary

#1
- Source-end: Sony STR-910
- CatX Adapter: Monoprice Wall plates
- CatX Cables: CAT6 UTP patch cables
- Far-end: Sharp Aquos D62
- Resolution(s) tested: 1080p
- Status: dropouts experienced anytime hoodfan or AC powered up and randomly with wall switches

#2
- Source-end: Denon AVR 891
- CatX Adapter: Monoprice Wall plates
- CatX Cables: CAT6 UTP patch cables
- Far-end: Sharp Aquos D62
- Resolution(s) tested: 1080p
- Status: dropouts experienced anytime hoodfan or AC powered up and randomly with wall switches

#3
- Source-end: Denon AVR 891
- CatX Adapter: Monoprice Wall plates with voltage inserter (tried at source and receiver ends)
- CatX Cables: CAT6 UTP patch cables
- Far-end: Sharp Aquos D62
- Resolution(s) tested: 1080p
- Status: dropouts experienced anytime hoodfan or AC powered up and randomly with wall switches

#4
- Source-end: Denon AVR 891
- CatX Adapter: Monoprice HDMI Extender (powered extender)
- CatX Cables: CAT6 UTP patch cables
- Far-end: Sharp Aquos D62
- Resolution(s) tested: 1080p
- Status: no dropouts
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post #203 of 406 Old 08-17-2011, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N3W813 View Post

#1
- Resolution(s) tested: 1080i with 2-channel audio
- Status: no dropouts experienced

#2
- Resolution(s) tested: 1080p24, 1080p60; with 2-channel audio
- Status: has intermittent dropouts @60p, no issues @24p

I'm getting a replacement unit from Monoprice to see if it is the unit itself. May have to buy a higher quality extender for 1080p60 to work without issues over 100'.

Good time for the August public service reminder--

Most all extenders will work at 1080i60 and many also at 1080p24 without issue. Simply put- the data rate is *HALF* that of a 1080p60 signal. DOUBLING the data rate for full 1080p60 is a pretty daunting task. If anyone is planning on running only 1080p24 or 1080i60 (or less!), then they shouldn't stress and instead just go try any of the LESS expensive extenders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfeferman View Post

I know Jautor will respond sooner or later (Hi Jeff!), but I'm wondering, is component is still the way to go, given the headaches with HDMI?

Now I just have to figure out how to cut all those darn blue electrical boxes out of my new walls, thinking I was going to save some money...

quick reply:
  • As far as physics go, triple run RG6 for Component Video (5x run if you also want L/R stereo sound with each wire on its own RCA connector) *beats the pants off HDMI*
  • RG6 / RG6QS can carry a much higher bandwidth signal, much farther, with much less loss (or skew). It's not RG6 that's the problem, it's the industry and the content producers. In short, it's content protection that is the problem.
  • content producers lobbied hard (and quite successfully) for TV equipment makers to restrict component video inputs and outputs to 1080i60, and in many cases, even less than 1080i.
  • HDMI works well, when it works. But it was never designed to span long distances, or chain through a dozen different devices. It supports 1080p60 and higher, with embedded audio, CEC, audio-return, Ethernet, and said content protection, all in ONE multi-conductor cable. For what it is, it's a remarkable creation. But for what it is, it's also wrought with problems from implementation differences (interoperability problems between devices from different manufacturers) to signal glitches over longer runs, to strange, unexpected random problems when a cable starts going bad. It's technology at it's peak- remarkable when working properly; a nightmare when it's not.

So that leaves the unassuming user at a crossroads. 1080i over component video is rock solid all the time and even at absurdly long lengths-- but it's only 1080i. HDMI cables are markedly more feature-rich and much more convenient, with limitations in connector rigidity (bend/tug/weight stress on HDMI connectors generally decreases reliability life) and overall length.

HDMI extenders are trying to bridge the gap. From all we've seen in this unscientific thread, solution "A" will work absolute wonders for some users and be abysmal for other users. solution "B" will be the opposite. It does not look yet like any one single solution is a true "problem solver" for everyone.

New HDbaseT solutions are beginning to hit the market. It will be interesting to see how they fare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

slightly OT but I found an alternaive solution to transmitting HDMI over CAT5:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

I have not done range testing yet but it seems to work well

All wireless solutions that I have seen to-date include compression. That's not to say that this one does or does not- just an observation on earlier units. Whether or not the compression will bother the viewer, of course, can only be decided by the viewer. My recommendation is of course to always buy-and-try (whether wired or wireless), but make sure you have a good return policy, covered even if you simply and SUBJECTIVELY do not like it. Many will only exchange in the case of a faulty unit. Others charge obscene "restocking" fees. Still others make you pay for shipping both ways and only refund the pre-shipping purchase price.


I have decided to put a number of items from this post in the top post, I think they've all been discussed before (here and many places elsewhere), but it's not "generally public knowledge" so a lot can be gained by sharing these generalities up-front on the first post. Keep in mind also that these are all generalities and the internet phrase "YMMV" (your mileage may vary) applies greatly here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmg79 View Post

#4
- Resolution(s) tested: 1080p
- Status: no dropouts

Yay!

cheers,
..dane


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post #204 of 406 Old 09-05-2011, 12:26 PM
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My media room is connected to my utility room via a balun (Cat5e) with a 50-foot run. The AVR is a Denon 3808. Audio/video loss sometimes occurs briefly when large appliances turn on (HVAC, washing machine, etc.). I've placed a Belkin PF30 power conditioner on the utility-room equipment with no improvement.

Would you recommend a dedicated circuit to the utility and media rooms, changing baluns, going wireless HDMI or something else?
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post #205 of 406 Old 09-28-2011, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
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mangoldm, unfortunately there's no single solution, as is mentioned predominately in the very first (summary) post of this thread. Some baluns work perfectly for some and horribly for others. Other baluns are exactly the opposite. I suggest you read the first post carefully and in its entirety along with all seven pages of this thread. It's not terribly long, and has a lot of really great and useful information.

The reality is that it's probably going to take throwing some money at the problem on a trial-and-error basis. So try to find vendors that have consumer-friendly return policies.

Good luck, and let us know how you make out.

cheers,
..dane


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post #206 of 406 Old 10-02-2011, 08:40 AM
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Ok, I know this is an older thread but I had exactly the same problem and figured out how to fix it. Go out to your home's main circuit panel and see what side your A/V equipment is running from. Look for a room nearby that is running on the OTHER side of the panel. Run a heavy duty extension cord from that room/circuit into your A/C or other power drain device. If you have a sub-panel in your A/V room (I do), go all the way out to the main panel and look for a circuit nearby. (There is a chance the main and sub-panel sides are reversed, so if you still get noise, try a circuit on the other side of the main panel.) Test the heck out of everything. The problem is strictly the noise between the devices producing the A/V signal and the A/C or other heave draw device (in my case it was a treadmill). Isolating the device on the other phase of your 3-phase 220-volt circuit panel MAY do the trick. How you do that once you figure out if this is the problem is up to you.
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post #207 of 406 Old 10-03-2011, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skippy99 View Post

Ok, I know this is an older thread but I had exactly the same problem and figured out how to fix it. Go out to your home's main circuit panel and see what side your A/V equipment is running from. Look for a room nearby that is running on the OTHER side of the panel. Run a heavy duty extension cord from that room/circuit into your A/C or other power drain device. If you have a sub-panel in your A/V room (I do), go all the way out to the main panel and look for a circuit nearby. (There is a chance the main and sub-panel sides are reversed, so if you still get noise, try a circuit on the other side of the main panel.) Test the heck out of everything. The problem is strictly the noise between the devices producing the A/V signal and the A/C or other heave draw device (in my case it was a treadmill). Isolating the device on the other phase of your 3-phase 220-volt circuit panel MAY do the trick. How you do that once you figure out if this is the problem is up to you.

skippy99, thank you for your post, but please be careful in your wording- your post starts out with an implication that you will be presenting a definite fix, which unfortunately, you don't. At least in the end of your post you indicate that your suggestion merely MAY fix the problem.

I wanted to also make a few corrections to your post- most homes only have TWO phase. It is very uncommon to have true THREE-phase to a residential home. A typical breaker box (see diagram below) include TWO legs of 120V coming from the utility company. Residential consumer grade appliances that need "3-phase" usually employ capacitors in their circuitry to mimic the 3rd phase.

Second, the breaker box is staggered- it is NOT setup as left side being one leg/phase and the right side being the other leg/phase. See the diagram below. You can see the staggering of the two phases down the breakers. It IS correct that two breakers side-by-side are on opposite legs. So are two breakers above and below one another. Diagonally-adjacent breakers are on the same leg/phase.

Third, many residential heavy loads (A/C systems, electric dryers, etc) run off both legs (240V) not 120V (single leg), so it is impossible to isolate the AV equipment from those loads, and therefore from those surges.

Lastly, you are completely correct that in some circumstances, your proposal to move the AV equipment from one leg/phase to the other can make an improvement. And for those willing and comfortable in their breaker box, you can actually move your breaker to the other leg (swap it with another breaker or just move it altogether, again following the diagram below).

Unfortunately, it is highly misleading to propose that the above solution will solve everyone's problems.

cheers,
..dane
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post #208 of 406 Old 10-03-2011, 11:20 PM
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Just to clarify...

Common residential power in the USA is 240V single phase 3-wire (at least that is what the utility calls it). It is sometimes called split phase. The third wire is connected to the center tap of the power transformer giving two 120V legs that are 180 out of phase. I know, sure sounds like two phases.

Some panels are all one leg on one side, and the other leg on the other side. Modern ones seem to alternate, though.
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post #209 of 406 Old 10-04-2011, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the clarification, Colm. I forgot about the term "split phase" until you mentioned it..

I was also unaware that different panels were setup differently (non-staggered). Interesting. My subbox is certainly staggered. I'll have to pull the door off the 30yr old box in my house and see if it's staggered as well. I assumed it was.

thanks,
..dane


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post #210 of 406 Old 10-04-2011, 08:01 PM
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Who knows...you may have an old Zinsco panel (god forbid) with two parallel buss bars where all the breakers clip onto both bus bars. The 120V breakers are dualies. Top half of each 120V breaker is on one leg, bottom is on the other. I guess that kind of counts as staggered.
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