I fail at cable termination. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 01-29-2011, 12:43 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, I'm throwing my hands up in the air.

Terminating network cable seems so simple. Strip it, sort them out, clip them even, slide them in, crimp them. I've got the tools, I know the order, I've gotten quite good at quickly straightening out those tighter twisted blues, etc.

But over time... ALL my cables eventually fail.

For instance, right now, to my bedroom, I have three CAT6 run from one end of the house to the other. It's a 70 or 80 foot run (typical 100ft long Chicago condo architecture). Of these three, I got one that would actually give me a proper signal from one end of a powered Component Extender to the other. Even that one won't work over a non-powered one. The others will work with audio and IR but nothing else.

Anyway, I thought I had it working nicely, with my Gefen component matrix sending me pretty 720p pictures to my 720p monitor via the Gefen powered extender and a monoprice 23awg CAT6, with 2 feet of premium component cable on either end.

Then Cable2 started blinking in and out.

Cable1 was fine. I eventually figured out that it could take 720p no problem but blinked with 1080i.

But tonight it started blinking on every source, all at 720p.

Grr.

Now, I know that CAT6 is tougher to get just right because of the tighter winding and especially because of the plastic X in the middle. I got the different terminations with the little plastic guide (which is extremely difficult to feed all 8 into) and that got me over the hump to at least get me a picture. Previously I had CAT5e over shorter runs that worked with non-powered HDMI baluns (2xCAT5e) until any kind of movement happened and jostled them into failure. Now I have CAT6 that works for a while and now gives me a flickering picture.

I'm ready to give up and run a component cable right through the hallway on the floor.

I'm not trying to do HDMI distribution through a switcher. I feel like this shouldn't be that complicated. And really, it's not. I just suck at terminating network cables, apparently.

So... anyone have any tips that I might not have heard or seen yet? Anyone local to Chicago that can guarantee a bulletproof termination that wants to come over and make a few bucks?

Sorry to vent. It's just really frustrating. I got a week of perfect distribution and peace, now it's all going to hell again.
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post #2 of 27 Old 01-29-2011, 08:58 AM
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Buy a cheap Ideal cable tester from HD/Lowes. May not be the terminations.

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post #3 of 27 Old 01-29-2011, 11:08 AM
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Wow, you sure sound frustrated!

My first recommendation is to not even try crimping plugs on Cat-5/6 cable -- typical RJ45 connectors are pretty easy to do wrong. Another problem is that many (most?) RJ45 connectors available at retail are for stranded wire, while solid wire is what's normally used for long permanent runs. Use stranded-wire connectors on solid wire and it might work at first, but can eventually fail.

I would recommend terminating the cables to jacks, then using pre-fab jumpers to get to your device, balun, etc. Jacks are much easier to terminate neatly with the wires in the right place and keeping the pairs sproperly twisted. Pretty much any jack you get will be designed for solid wire. Ideally, use a punch tool for the termination, but it's not always necessary -- I've used the platic tool included with the Leviton jacks from Home Depot when I didn't have my tools, and have never had a problem with the connections. Put the jack on a wall plate or surface box, and you'll protect the wires from getting pulled and tugged so they should be good forever.
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post #4 of 27 Old 01-29-2011, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh I sure was. It's just that it seems like such a simple task. It's not as if it has me poring over ten pages of instructions wondering if I skipped a step.

Actually I do have a couple of the wall plate baluns that will take a 110 punch down connection. I need to go pick up that tool. I tried just using a tiny screwdriver for it but not all of them clicked in. Obviously, it didn't work. (Question: it has to click for me to know it's in there correctly, right?)

Interesting about stranded vs solid. Perhaps that's it. Both the CAT5e and 6 that I own are solid.

In fact, going through my order history... the Cat5 terminations are for solid, but the cat6 ones are for stranded!

OK, so you think I'll get a more reliable signal by terminating at a plate then using a short jumper than just by terminating in a connector that goes straight into the balun? That seems like just one extra step / layer of complexity, and thus one more thing that can go wrong.
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post #5 of 27 Old 01-29-2011, 02:58 PM
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If in-wall cabling, probly ezier just use keytone jacks and punch tool, cleaner too.

If loose cable, those are in the know always suggest u buy ready-made cables, they are not that expensive.

But OK, you already bought bulk cabling..... making CAT jacks looks simple but it's VERY FRUSTRATING if you have no experience. If you bought those CAT jacks with the little plastic "knuckle" to hold the 8 wires before insert, that makes the job alot ezier. Job makes it harder if u have cheapo jacks and/or crimping (should be racketed) tool.

Now 2 of the 4 pairs are crossed. They are not STRAIGHT, and you shouldn't use any pair anywhere, there is a reason why are paired that way. Look at a pre-made one and follow exactly. I don't want u spending all that time and find out u did it all wrong.

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post #6 of 27 Old 01-29-2011, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Now 2 of the 4 pairs are crossed. They are not STRAIGHT, and you shouldn't use any pair anywhere, there is a reason why are paired that way.

I don't follow.

They are in the proper order.

Is there a flaw in their positioning between where I stripped the outer jacket and where they enter into the jack?

(On the CAT6 I do have the little knuckle, but as the previous poster led me to discover, I got the stranded one, not the solid. Though I can't say I understand how those terminations differ.)
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post #7 of 27 Old 01-29-2011, 09:56 PM
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I bought the Platinum Tools EZRJ45 crimper and connectors for my male cthernet cable terminations, and I've never really had a problem.

I've used punchdown female keystone jacks from Leviton, available at Home Depot, without any issues. Comes with a little plastic punchdown tool that works fine if you only have a few terminations; I bought a $20 punchdown tool, a little easier.

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post #8 of 27 Old 01-30-2011, 06:50 AM
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From just skimming through this thread I would say you're problem is because of what you already found out; you're using solid cable with stranded crimps. It's a common issue of what you're seeing with them working for a while then failing. Simple solution is to buy new crimps and you can get ones that are designed for both stranded and solid; or either or. It all has to do with how the teeth are arranged in the plug.

Personally, I used to do jacks everywhere but no longer use them at my TV locations since I now have a single scoop-type wall plate so I just crimp directly. Bottom line is with the right crimps and tools it will work fine. Just don't go playing with the cables or moving the equipment they connect to once they're connected because you still have the 24ga. solid wire issue.
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post #9 of 27 Old 01-30-2011, 10:01 AM
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I've said it before but I cannot say it enough - throw away any RJ45 crimper tool you have and never touch one again. There is no professional cable installer in the world that would ever use the things. A robot can and will always make a better cable, and you can buy premade cables dirt cheap.

The cable you buy in the 500' reel is for installing in your walls, and to be punched down to termination blocks which are designed for solid core cable. At no point in the install will you need to put RJ45 plugs onto the end of a cable.
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post #10 of 27 Old 01-30-2011, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by luma View Post

At no point in the install will you need to put RJ45 plugs onto the end of a cable.

Really....are you sure about that? You need to think about more than a simple "computer" network.

I will agree with your point on buying premade patch cables; always ideal.
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post #11 of 27 Old 01-30-2011, 12:09 PM
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I have to terminate using male ends for my Nuvo whole-house audio system, using keypads.

Well, I COULD kludge it, and just use patch cables at each end...nah, couldn't do that.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. -Buddha

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post #12 of 27 Old 01-30-2011, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by video321 View Post

Really....are you sure about that? You need to think about more than a simple "computer" network.

I will agree with your point on buying premade patch cables; always ideal.

Yes, I'm sure about that. You terminate female cables, and buy pre-made male cables. I'm all about DIY audio cabling, but there simply is no way to effectively terminate stranded CAT5 cable that can even come close to the molded boot, strain relief, and factory-tested bandwidth of cables you can buy for a dollar from a dozen online vendors.

Further, all the CAT5 cable you buy from HD or almost any other major retailer is solid core cabling intended for in-wall use. The difference is the long-term effects of constant flexing of the cable. Stranded cabling will live up to this, solid core will eventually crack internally and cause intermittent failures.

I used to work for a shop that had a datacom cabling division where they did BICSI training. One of the first things made clear to any new hires was that they would be fired on the spot if anyone saw them with a crimp tool, and they were serious.

If you're making one-off hackjob cables with no intention of a usable life, then sure I understand and I've made a few myself. If you're trying to run CAT5 cable for datacom purposes (which includes non-ethernet installs), the structured cabling environment you have at your disposal in the way of patch panels, 110 blocks, and keystone jacks makes it entirely unnecessary to be crimping male connectors onto anything.
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post #13 of 27 Old 01-30-2011, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by luma View Post

throw away any RJ45 crimper tool you have and never touch one again.

On a previously job, the company gave me a crimping tool, it was all metal, with long handles and heavy. I had to hardly put any pressure to crimp the thing, it felt like it was on hydraulics. A coworker said at the time the tool cost the company usd$300 each. Wished I had swapped one because I don't see it now!

Solution: FREE. Explanation: I will have to charge$ you.

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post #14 of 27 Old 01-31-2011, 09:29 AM
 
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If you're trying to run CAT5 cable for datacom purposes (which includes non-ethernet installs), the structured cabling environment you have at your disposal in the way of patch panels, 110 blocks, and keystone jacks makes it entirely unnecessary to be crimping male connectors onto anything.
LOL
I'd love to see your installation of a K2 video server system without using custom cables....it would be a non functioning mess.
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post #15 of 27 Old 01-31-2011, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by razr67 View Post

LOL
I'd love to see your installation of a K2 video server system without using custom cables....it would be a non functioning mess.

I guess I don't understand what the problem is here. Take a look at any datacom structured cabling project (ie, in any datacenter cabled by a reasonably competent professional). None of the patch cables are custom lengths, the only cables cut to length are in the back of the panel and terminated with punch-down tools. If you have a problem with cables of wildly varying lengths you can simply "hide" them in a raceway made for this purpose.

It's been a long time since I've touched any Grass Valley stuff and I've never seen a K2 system, but if they're using Cat 5 cables I still don't see any reason to make custom cables - you can buy pre-made cables from Monoprice (or whatever) at many different lengths and take up any resulting slack. A video switch setup may take a lot of cables, but I do know that a rack packed full of 1U 48-port switches will be an entirely functioning non-mess with factory-made cables, and almost certainly involves more individual cables than most video switching configurations.
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I guess I don't understand what the problem is here.

Obviously, you have a very narrow vision of what is correct. You clearly haven't been in any other industy that uses high speed data. Get out more, open your mind, you'll learn a lot

Quote:
It's been a long time since I've touched any Grass Valley stuff and I've never seen a K2 system,

...but, you know better, right?
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post #17 of 27 Old 01-31-2011, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by razr67 View Post

Obviously, you have a very narrow vision of what is correct. You clearly haven't been in any other industy that uses high speed data. Get out more, open your mind, you'll learn a lot



...but, you know better, right?

What you still haven't explained is why you would do anything other than follow accepted structured data cabling standards. I'm the first to admit that I don't know anything about the use of Cat5 for non-voice or data purposes, but the standards for voice and data installation have been pretty well set for decades now due to the influence and experience of literally thousands of professionals and millions of man-hours spent installing and maintaining these systems around the world. If you're going to come out and say that all this is bunk, then I'm all ears, but you at least have to say why.

Video signals are defiantly a different beast, but Cat5 is Cat5 no matter what you're running over it, and there's an entire industry built around the effective and reliable installation and maintenance of Cat5 cable plants. To simply say "all that is wrong" is going to require a fairly convincing argument.
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post #18 of 27 Old 01-31-2011, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I went down to play around a bit and at some point the Gefen extenders suddenly stopped working. Completely. Regardless of cable, including my pre-made test one that always worked before. That made me mad.

Then the generic ebay wall plates, whose video side is not powered, suddenly started working. And without any blinking. Previously these had not worked over cable runs this long.

This is with the solid Cat6 and same (stranded) termination. I re-did another one with the solid RJ45 termination and it worked too. I guess suddenly I'm better at it.

I'm still going to get the punch tool and do it that way, especially on the screens running these dual-gang wall plate ones, since they have that kind of connection option... but for now I hope I can at least get a week of proper function.

Then again, I think it's ghosting the picture a bit... not sure why that'd be, though.

Who cares. I'm good for now, and I should have the means to be good for later. And in the meantime, it looks like I sparked quite the debate. Carry on.
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post #19 of 27 Old 01-31-2011, 11:21 PM
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Count me in the camp that will only make the famale cables (keystone, patch panel punchdowns) and use pre-fab patch cables.

Any network closet that I have been in (university, college, etc..) does the same thing.

Pre-fab patch cables are more reliable and are available in virtually any length to minimize the "what do I do with this extra cable" situations.

Plus, time is money. Nobody wants to waste time making their own cables for 100+ connections.
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post #20 of 27 Old 02-01-2011, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebberry View Post

Count me in the camp that will only make the famale cables (keystone, patch panel punchdowns) and use pre-fab patch cables.

Any network closet that I have been in (university, college, etc..) does the same thing.

Pre-fab patch cables are more reliable and are available in virtually any length to minimize the "what do I do with this extra cable" situations.

Plus, time is money. Nobody wants to waste time making their own cables for 100+ connections.

I think most companies will use patch bays etc as they potentially have many ports wired but only need to makes a certain number live - network ports cost money. In a residential situation I, personally, would always crimp an RJ45 connector on to the end of a Cat5e or 6. Less connections is less to go wrong and I have never had a working crimp go bad.

Different storkes for different folks but it the above has worked, professionally, for us for the last 10 years.
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post #21 of 27 Old 02-01-2011, 06:08 AM
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The point of all of this is simple....

If you can terminate with a punchdown and use pre-made patch cables, the better off you'll be. The problem comes from situations where you can't terminate that way; such as a device that only has an RJ-45 jack and mounts flush on the wall or a setup that uses feed-throughs to route wiring with no termination point.
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post #22 of 27 Old 02-01-2011, 06:31 AM
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I have been reading a lot of documentation from HDMI switches and extenders over the past couple of weeks. From what I can remember nearly all of them recommended not using patch panels and connecting the Cat 5/6/7 directly between the baluns/switches. They recommended by eliminating the extra jumps between connections the performance would be far more reliable.

I haven't tested this one way or the other but it seems that the recommendations here are counter to what manufacturers are recommending for using their products. This specifically relates to HDMI over copper, though that is a major function of copper wire in a residential application.
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post #23 of 27 Old 02-01-2011, 08:27 AM
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I agree with video321. With patch panels, you would never have to crimp ethernet cables. You would use pre-made stranded patch cables.

But with keypads, touchscreens, and anything else mounted in-wall, that only accepts a male connector, you're stuck crimping.

And HDMI over ethernet cable is a different beast, very finicky. The fewer connectors the better.

Ethernet cables aren't just for ethernet any more.

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post #24 of 27 Old 02-01-2011, 11:17 AM
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Which is why if any keypad or control interface has the ability to punch down the Cat5 cable, I'll always choose the punchdown method.


Now, there's a neat product on the market - EZ Cat5 or something like that.



As you can see, you can make sure the wires slide all the way into the connector and you can verify the correct colour sequence very easily. Crimp, cut and away you go.
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post #25 of 27 Old 02-01-2011, 02:05 PM
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I use the EZRJ45 system from Platinum Tools. Pretty straightforward.

Found this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FywAX5SAaYs

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post #26 of 27 Old 02-01-2011, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post

And HDMI over ethernet cable is a different beast, very finicky. The fewer connectors the better.

Exactly. This was the reason for my surprise at the suggestion initially. I have played with HDMI distribution, and every extra piece is an extra level of complexity and extra place for something to go wrong, extra piece to troubleshoot, etc. Even the best and most expensive matrix switchers get VERY sensitive to extra wire, extra connections, sub-perfect gear, etc.

That, plus the fact that I refuse to pay more for inferior 1080p displays when I have Runco and Kuro 720p stuff that looks awesome anyway (I watch mostly sports, not movies, and broadcast cable is still 720p), made it easy for me to just drop down to component distribution. Still, as we're seeing here, it does require good connections. But I imagine that the concerns with HDMI don't apply as much here.... I'm just still stuck on the nightmares from before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebberry View Post

Now, there's a neat product on the market - EZ Cat5 or something like that.

Why the heck wasn't this made the industry standard right from the start?
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post #27 of 27 Old 02-05-2011, 04:45 PM
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call me if you want help in the chicago area - 3124018473. im a systems integrator and can drop in and charge you to fix it all up and make sure your terminations are solid.
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