Cat 5/6 based IR extender that can handle dual band IR signals? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 02-29-2012, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone know of a cat based IR extender that is compatible with dual band IR devices? These devices seem to be becoming more common. Monoprice did not seem to have anything...
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post #2 of 34 Old 03-01-2012, 05:46 AM
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Give the guys at Microsmith a call to see if their Hot-Link XL system would work. I'm not sure what dual band IR is but they should be able to help you. The system itself can be found for cheaper on Amazon than on their website though...
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post #3 of 34 Old 03-01-2012, 08:05 AM
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Not familiar with the dual band term .. but we have not run into any situations where the xantech pieces we use do not work, so I would have to assume that they cover your situation as well
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post #4 of 34 Old 03-01-2012, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info, I'll check those out.

My concern was this listing at monoprice. In the reviews it seems some people install single band IR extenders not realizing their component or whatever is dual band. I have a 30' run from sensor to the equipment closet and would like to run cat. I just wonder if a dual band compatible sensor can run over cat.
LL
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post #5 of 34 Old 03-01-2012, 10:35 AM
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I've been looking into this too as I would like to use my DirecTv remotes over an extender setup. So far I haven't found anything that explicitly states that it will work with a dual band remote.

Does anyone know if Harmony remotes will work over a Cat based IR repeater? Looks like that might be my excuse to replace all my other remotes.

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post #6 of 34 Old 03-01-2012, 11:16 AM
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The hot-link XL definitely works with harmony remotes. I've tested this myself.

Can someone please provide a bit more detail on what dual band IR is? Also, when doing long runs with an IR extender (non-cat) like the monoprice one rimshot linked to, what type of wiring is used?
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post #7 of 34 Old 03-01-2012, 11:34 AM
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I think dual band refers to some IR systems that use a different modulation frequency (can't remember the numbers/details). So it's not "dual" so much as "there's two different ranges". General IR receivers have to work on a much larger spectrum than the individually-tuned receivers in the devices themselves - since those devices know exactly what remote codes/frequencies are coming...

IIRC there are certain brand(s) of set-top boxes that used the "other" frequency range and that is/can be an issue...

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post #8 of 34 Old 03-01-2012, 11:45 AM
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Directv and newer Comcast set top boxes are shipping with dual band remotes. I don't really know anything about the specifics other than most IR repeaters/extenders seem to have a problem with them. If you take a look at the end of a dual band remote, you will see two IR emitters, rather than just one on most remotes.

Looks like I'm getting a Harmony. Thanks for the info.

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post #9 of 34 Old 03-01-2012, 11:51 AM
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Another question - I've never used the connector block type extenders but have just been reading about them. Given that you can power/extend them using Cat5 wire, are there advantages to the Hot-Link XL system that I don't know about (other than that you use terminated Cat5 rather than just a couple wire pairs)?

I bought the hot link as I didn't know how to to the wiring but its more expensive than some of the other solutions like the monoprice.
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post #10 of 34 Old 03-01-2012, 11:52 AM
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Quote:


If you take a look at the end of a dual band remote, you will see two IR emitters, rather than just one on most remotes.

IR emitters are IR LEDS, the'yre not frequency specific. The only reason there would be more than one is for greater coverage.

Most IR receivers have a center frequency of 38KHz, some have a 56KHz center frequency.
'dual band' receivers usually contain two IR Rx modules, one for each carrier frequency.
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post #11 of 34 Old 03-01-2012, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

I've been looking into this too as I would like to use my DirecTv remotes over an extender setup. So far I haven't found anything that explicitly states that it will work with a dual band remote.

Does anyone know if Harmony remotes will work over a Cat based IR repeater? Looks like that might be my excuse to replace all my other remotes.

If this is just for DirecTV have you tried using RF so that you don't have to worry about extenders for the remote signal?
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post #12 of 34 Old 03-01-2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayW View Post

If this is just for DirecTV have you tried using RF so that you don't have to worry about extenders for the remote signal?

I'm working on a plan to centralize all my av equipment in to one location. So the ideal solution will have to control a couple Directv boxes, a BD player, XBox.

I'm sure there are some more expensive options that will have all of this figured out, but I'm trying to do it on a relatively small budget.

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post #13 of 34 Old 03-01-2012, 01:34 PM
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FWIW, a monoprice tech said that this would work with Directv remotes, but not necessarily with all dual band remotes.

I asked him if one could replace the packaged IR receiver for a dual band receiver. He replied that "It is inadvisable to modify existing design." So, it may or may not work. I ordered a set and I'll get it a shot.

Edit:
I also just got a reply back from the Microsmith folks. They confirmed that their system will work with all dual band remotes. They gave a link for this system which looks pretty cool.

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post #14 of 34 Old 03-01-2012, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

Directv and newer Comcast set top boxes are shipping with dual band remotes. I don't really know anything about the specifics other than most IR repeaters/extenders seem to have a problem with them. If you take a look at the end of a dual band remote, you will see two IR emitters, rather than just one on most remotes.

I *think* in the DirecTV case that it's actually a receiver (operating on a different frequency than standard IR?) for "automatic programming" of the remote control by the set-top box...


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post #15 of 34 Old 03-01-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

I *think* in the DirecTV case that it's actually a receiver (operating on a different frequency than standard IR?) for "automatic programming" of the remote control by the set-top box...

That's really interesting. The DirecTV people seem to have a unique way of operating.

Also, I just took a look at your build thread. Wow, Wow, Wow. Very impressive.

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post #16 of 34 Old 03-03-2012, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, thanks a lot everyone for the info. So far my working theory is:

1. Dual band remote controls will have 2 LED diodes, one for each frequency (?).

2. Single band receivers are therefore incompatible with dual band remotes. A dual band receiver is needed.

So after much searching I found this unsatisfactory dual band solution found here:

(forum won't let me post urls yet, sorry)

Only 2 emitters!

So now I am wondering if I did this:

Dual band receiver to 3mm to this wall jack, then to Cat6 (30' run) to the partner wall jack, then from the emitter 3mm ports to a dual band compatible hub (with male to male 3mm wire) and then from this hub to multiple emitters.

I figure the 3mm and cat is just providing a longer connection between the receiver and hub.

Anybody see any flaws in this plan, kludgy as it is?

I am surprised I am having so much trouble with a 30' dual band solution, that there is no packaged solution for this.

Interesting IR link for those interested, though there is no discussion of dual band.

(darn, can't post urls yet)
LL
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post #17 of 34 Old 03-03-2012, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rimshot99 View Post

OK, thanks a lot everyone for the info. So far my working theory is:

1. Dual band remote controls will have 2 LED diodes, one for each frequency (?).

I still don't think there are actually OEM remotes (meaning, not including universal remotes) that are "dual band". They are either one carrier frequency or the other, as SAM64 pointed out. They can also operate generally in 3 IR spectrum ranges - which is why the IR repeater receivers are expensive (operate in a wider range for compatibility). I could be wrong here, someone correct me?!

So the question you probably need to answer is - do you have any source devices that use one of the lesser-used frequencies (or at higher carrier frequencies that I suppose could also be an issue with repeaters)? If not, you won't need to be concerned with getting receivers that support it.

Lots of good info / background on consumer IR (CIR, as opposed to IrDA) on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_IR

Quote:


2. Single band receivers are therefore incompatible with dual band remotes. A dual band receiver is needed.

If you have a mix of devices that each use one of the two frequencies...

Quote:


I am surprised I am having so much trouble with a 30' dual band solution, that there is no packaged solution for this.

Again, do you have a device known to be a troublesome IR citizen?

Jeff


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post #18 of 34 Old 03-03-2012, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

That's really interesting. The DirecTV people seem to have a unique way of operating.

Also, I just took a look at your build thread. Wow, Wow, Wow. Very impressive.

Thanks, there's almost no IR used in it...

I was setting up some new D* gear for my sister, and programming the remote the OSD said "point the remote to the receiver to auto-program" (the TV codes). First I had seen of it - haven't looked into the gory details, but I gather this is what they're doing. Great idea since the on-screen UI is much easier to navigate to perform the remote setup steps. They just needed a way to send a few bytes of data to the remote.


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post #19 of 34 Old 03-04-2012, 07:36 AM
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Quote:


1. Dual band remote controls will have 2 LED diodes, one for each frequency (?).

No

Typical carrier frequencies are ~38KHz, 40KHz and 56KHz.
The output of these IR Receivers are baseband, ie. the modulation is removed.
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post #20 of 34 Old 03-12-2012, 08:43 AM
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Like SAM64 said, typically (if not all) IR transmitted at 3 frequencies.
38KHz, 40KHz, and 56KHz.

Xantech has many IR solution that supports above IR frequencies.
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post #21 of 34 Old 03-15-2012, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again everyone for the replies.

The Wikipedia entry was very helpful, but I am still at sea with regards to dual band remotes. there seems to be no readily available info on this tech. What concerns me are reviews like this from monoprice:

Pros: Extending HD Video works very nice even with cat5 at 60feet.

Cons: IR extender does not work with 'dual band' IR remotes which includes all cablevision cable boxes and most likely all new devices.

This box requires 2 cat5 cables (16 wires or 8pairs) to work.

I waited for this box for a while and when it was in stocked, ordered it right away. I was trying to extend my cable box my bed room from my living room. Other HDMI extender monoprice sells does not extend IR signal and this box had a promise to do what I wanted.

Unfortunately after I installed it, this box only work halfway. It extended my HD video but I was not able to extend the remote and change channels, volumes etc. I thought it was a bad box so wrote monoprice tech support who was nice enough to send me a replacement box and prepaid return shipping.

The replacement box arrived a week later and also show the same problem. The IR extender function did not work. Wrote another tech support who later told me that the IR extender function will NOT work for 'dual band IR' remote. How does one supposed to know what kinda of remote one has? For an IR extender to be sold, it has to work for all remotes. No end users will know what their remotes can do.

I wished that Monoprice would stop selling product like this as it only work for a subset of remote controls. The only winner here is UPS. It gets paid for sending and returning the box. I am now back looking for affordable HDMI with IR extender that would work for all my remotes.



There are other reviews with similar complaints, with reference to dual band becoming more and more common.

My plan - buy the HDMI extender with the IR functionality, run a stereo 3.5mm cable (50') into a keystone jack by the TV as a back up to use a stand alone dual band IR extender system if needed. And look into IP control via the GC100 and perhaps just forget about IR altogether. If I decide on IP control then I am guessing I can run the GC100 IR emitter signal down the 3.5mm cable to the TV (if anyone knows that won't work please let me know!
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post #22 of 34 Old 03-16-2012, 07:33 AM
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rimshot99,

didn't know you are looking for a HDMI extender as well.
You can use this then, HDMI Extender over CAT.
Their box is wideband, 20KHz to 60KHz. Works with dual-band remote. I know because I have one!
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post #23 of 34 Old 03-16-2012, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Articbear - I just knew something like this must exist!
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post #24 of 34 Old 04-03-2012, 06:29 PM
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Frustrations galore!

Yep I'm in the same boat as quite a few others.

1 have the desire to centralize components
2 have multiple 'dual band' ir devices Cablevision SA boxes
3 found a 99% solution in a monoprice product

The beauty of the monoprice "4x4 matrix over cat6" is that it has one REALLY nice feature... It only sends IR codes to the specific device you've chosen to watch (via the matrix switcher) and not just bast em out to all the devices.

Why is this important? Well all of the Cabevision SA boxes have the same IR codes and after lots of searching you can't set distinct codes even f you wanted to. In other words powering off one cable box would power them all off (when ir is just blased everywhere.)

The monoprice box really solves this issue well... However it's totally useless since it doesnt support dual band remotes.

If anyone has tried any hacks that worked, I'm ALL ears.
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post #25 of 34 Old 01-27-2013, 10:04 PM
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Hi,
Bought this HDMI / IR Extender from Monoprice to be used with my Directv H21 receiver: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10425&cs_id=1042501&p_id=8008&seq=1&format=3#specification

The Video portion came in excellent but of course the IR portion didn't work because of the dual frequency incompability.

Now I'm looking for a cheap and reliable solution rolleyes.gif to get the IR section to work.
the DTV reciever is 35 feet and 2 walls away from the TV, so it seems that the DTV RF remote won't be able to do the trick (read that only works within 10 Ft of the receiver)

I looked at this wireless solution: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011009&p_id=9194&seq=1&format=4#feedback
but with very poor reviews I believe it won't work for my needed distance and conditions.

Can anyone help me with some options?
Thanks
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post #26 of 34 Old 01-27-2013, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manamb View Post

Hi,
Bought this HDMI / IR Extender from Monoprice to be used with my Directv H21 receiver: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10425&cs_id=1042501&p_id=8008&seq=1&format=3#specification

The Video portion came in excellent but of course the IR portion didn't work because of the dual frequency incompability.

Now I'm looking for a cheap and reliable solution rolleyes.gif to get the IR section to work.
the DTV reciever is 35 feet and 2 walls away from the TV, so it seems that the DTV RF remote won't be able to do the trick (read that only works within 10 Ft of the receiver)

Are you sure? The DirecTV boxes aren't dual band, and are generally very easy on IR repeaters. Where did you mount the IR emitter(s)? The DirecTV IR can be overdriven - try moving the emitter an inch or so away from the opening and see what you get.


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post #27 of 34 Old 01-27-2013, 11:39 PM
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Yes, pretty sure.
I was looking at this 2 ebay options:

1) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Premium-Dual-Frequency-IR-Receiver-SA-HDTV-DVR-and-Direct-TV-H21-/300731387248

"Simply replace original receiver which cames with the IR system to the Dual Frequency IR Receiver."
Not sure if I only change the IR Receiver will help.
Then I would also need to change the emmiter?

2) http://www.ebay.com/itm/260828947217?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D260828947217%26_rdc%3D1
These plates state an lR Carrier Frequency:38Khz&56Khz. Hopefully the H21 works within the higher frequency.

Thanks
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post #28 of 34 Old 01-28-2013, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manamb View Post

Yes, pretty sure.
I was looking at this 2 ebay options:

1) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Premium-Dual-Frequency-IR-Receiver-SA-HDTV-DVR-and-Direct-TV-H21-/300731387248

"Simply replace original receiver which cames with the IR system to the Dual Frequency IR Receiver."
Not sure if I only change the IR Receiver will help.
Then I would also need to change the emmiter?

2) http://www.ebay.com/itm/260828947217?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D260828947217%26_rdc%3D1
These plates state an lR Carrier Frequency:38Khz&56Khz. Hopefully the H21 works within the higher frequency.

Thanks


Do what jautor suggested and move the emitter away from the DirecTV's IR window and it should work.  If not you can put a resistor in the IR emitter path to reduce the signal getting to the IR window.  This is a common problem with DirecTV boxes.

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post #29 of 34 Old 01-28-2013, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manamb View Post

Hi,
Bought this HDMI / IR Extender from Monoprice to be used with my Directv H21 receiver: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10425&cs_id=1042501&p_id=8008&seq=1&format=3#specification

The Video portion came in excellent but of course the IR portion didn't work because of the dual frequency incompability.

Now I'm looking for a cheap and reliable solution rolleyes.gif to get the IR section to work.
the DTV reciever is 35 feet and 2 walls away from the TV, so it seems that the DTV RF remote won't be able to do the trick (read that only works within 10 Ft of the receiver)

I looked at this wireless solution: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011009&p_id=9194&seq=1&format=4#feedback
but with very poor reviews I believe it won't work for my needed distance and conditions.

Can anyone help me with some options?
Thanks

I've been using IR extenders with DirecTV receivers/DVRs for years without issue. I use the http://www.amazon.com/Next-Generation-Remote-Control-Extender/dp/B000C1Z0HA/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1359389289&sr=8-4&keywords=next+generation with several different remotes, including the DirecTV original remote (in IR mode). My DirecTV DVRs in my basement are easily controlled from 1 floor above without the use of stick-on emitters.

Vin
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post #30 of 34 Old 01-28-2013, 10:46 AM
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Thank you all,
I'll definitely try the Next Generation Remote Extender. lots of great reviews!

So far this is how I was able to get the Monoprice HDMI / IR plates to work:

1) Covered the DTV H21 IR sensor with a piece of black insulation tape with a small pin hole size at the middle of the sensor.
2) Placed the Monoprice IR Emitter 4" away from the DTV sensor pointing directly to it.
3) Placed the Monoprice IR Receiver just below my Plasma but 1' in front of it.
4) The only way that the receiver picks the DTV remote signal is by placing the remote exactly in front of the receiver (doesn't matter the distance) and point the remote towards the ceiling eek.gif

I'll continue to experiment with it, hopping to get it to work better without these many quirks.

I can’t wait to see my wife’s face when I explain to her how to work the remote. LOL!
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