What is the best solution to this proposed setup? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 18 Old 05-10-2012, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
boostinzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hey guys/girls,
I am new to the game here so I hope that my dumb question and complete lack of expertise doesn't offend too many here... My boss has tasked me with helping him distribute audio and video throughout his house from 1 location. From reading the forums, there are many ways to do this, but I am still not understanding all of it... Anyways, I will try to describe his setup and if anyone could be so kind as to chime in and let me know what I need or where to start, I would greatly appreciate it!

What we want the system to do:
  1. We would like the system to be able to distribute satellite tv to 8 zones, being able to independently watch channels and also the ability to record these channels to a media server. (does this require still having 8 satellite boxes in the central location and then extending cables to each room and somehow connecting them to the media server?)
  2. We would like to be able to also store movies and music on this media server and pipe to each of the 8 zones
  3. Would like the ability to store all of this in his data closet where he has all of his cat5e drops

What his current setup is:
  • He has a centralized room in the house that has a total of 24 cat5e drops to it, right now these are being used for data ports in the house.
  • Behind every TV in the 8 zones, there is Coax, and Cat5e

I guess our solution needs to have some way of distributing the video/audio over cat5 since that's what he has running everywhere... is there any way that we can do this? He of course wants to keep it as economical as possible, but please let me know any and all options. Thanks again for your help in advance, it seems like you all have a really good community here, and hope I can be received as part of it one day Thanks for your time!

-Ian
boostinzx is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 18 Old 05-10-2012, 03:00 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
fcwilt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Smith Mountain Lake, VA
Posts: 1,086
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 19
This is a heck of project for a newcomer.

Economical is not the word that comes to mind. Do you have a budget?

At each TV location you have only ONE coax and ONE cat5e?

How many different shows does he want to be able to watch at the same time?

Does he want to be able to watch a different show on each TV (thus needing 8 STBs) or would he be content to limit it to say 4 different shows at the same time (this needing 4 STBs)?

There are lots of other questions to be asked but these will do for starters.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
fcwilt is offline  
post #3 of 18 Old 05-10-2012, 05:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jautor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,787
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked: 351
Assuming this is a US-based Sat system, forget trying to consolidate a "media server" from the sat source.

DirecTV and Dish both have "whole home DVR" solutions. Get a central DVR, and several receivers. If you want to centralize all the gear and merge with a DVD/BD image server, you'll be looking for an HDBaseT matrix switch to feed the sets. If you can keep to 4 sources total, your costs will be considerably lower. You can also mix/match sources on two separate 4x4 matrix switches as well (split HDMI output from a shared source like a server to both matrix devices) - depending on the usage model.

Good luck - you should really be consulting a pro for distributed HD if you're not familiar with the products and the associated headaches.

If your boss doesn't have "many thousands" in mind for the budget for this, you should really consider the whole home DVR solution(s) and a local sat receiver. Or centralize the receivers with HDBaseT extenders.

Jeff

Rock Creek Theater -- CIH, Panamorph, Martin Logan, SVS PB2000, Carada Masquerade, Grafik Eye, Bar table, Green Glue, JVC RS50 
Theater build photos: http://photobucket.com/autor-ht

jautor is online now  
post #4 of 18 Old 05-11-2012, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
boostinzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This is a heck of project for a newcomer.
lol, you're telling me .. the reason he has tasked me with this, is we are an IT company but deal mainly with servers/desktops/video conferencing etc... so we have distributors where we can get our hands on the product, but its up to me to figure out how to make it work.. and i have no background with audio/video stuff...

Economical is not the word that comes to mind. Do you have a budget?
Budget should be under $5,000.00

At each TV location you have only ONE coax and ONE cat5e?
Yes that is all that is run to each location from the "server room" right now. We can fish more cable, but it is a PITA the way the ceiling was built so close to the subfloor.

How many different shows does he want to be able to watch at the same time?
Ideally, he wants to be able to control all independently, but I guess we could setup "zones" and have the downstairs gameroom tv's all show the same channel at the same time. but individually would be the ideal setup.

Does he want to be able to watch a different show on each TV (thus needing 8 STBs) or would he be content to limit it to say 4 different shows at the same time (this needing 4 STBs)?
I think i kind of answered that above, but ideally, 8 different shows at the same time on 8 different tv's..

There are lots of other questions to be asked but these will do for starters.
boostinzx is offline  
post #5 of 18 Old 05-11-2012, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
boostinzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

Assuming this is a US-based Sat system, forget trying to consolidate a "media server" from the sat source.

DirecTV and Dish both have "whole home DVR" solutions. Get a central DVR, and several receivers. If you want to centralize all the gear and merge with a DVD/BD image server, you'll be looking for an HDBaseT matrix switch to feed the sets. If you can keep to 4 sources total, your costs will be considerably lower. You can also mix/match sources on two separate 4x4 matrix switches as well (split HDMI output from a shared source like a server to both matrix devices) - depending on the usage model.

Good luck - you should really be consulting a pro for distributed HD if you're not familiar with the products and the associated headaches.

If your boss doesn't have "many thousands" in mind for the budget for this, you should really consider the whole home DVR solution(s) and a local sat receiver. Or centralize the receivers with HDBaseT extenders.

Jeff

Thanks for your input Jeff, I have never heard of the HDBaseT but that looks promising... I will look into that more...

I do realize that I really need to consult a local pro, but I just feel bad asking for their help and then not buying anything from them and doing the labor ourselves... just picking their brain... so instead I chose to do that to you guys... lol.. I will probably end up giving up and telling my boss he's just going to have to call a local company and have them come out and look at his setup and see where to go from there... but keep the ideas coming this will only help us either figure it out, or know what to ask for / look for in a company that we do end up going with...
boostinzx is offline  
post #6 of 18 Old 05-11-2012, 10:32 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
fcwilt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Smith Mountain Lake, VA
Posts: 1,086
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 19
You really should have a network connection to each TV location what with streaming content, online firmware updates, etc, being so common.

If you had two or three CATx runs to each TV you would have more, lower cost, options.

Now you could use MoCA to get a network connection over your COAX but that's sort of a kludge if you actually can run more CATx.

With only one CATx run I think your only option is HDBaseT which can support both a network connection and HDMI connection. Now I haven't seen such devices on the market yet but then I haven't looked all that hard.

Do you think you can get by WITHOUT a matrix switch approach? A matrix switch would allow routing any source to any destination but if you are content with a dedicated source for each destination you will save a lot of money. I was looking at one HDBaseT 8x8 switch with a list price of $14,000.00.

Aside from money and the "missing" CatX cable the only thing I don't know how to do is record from the SAT receivers to a centralized server. The SAT companies have their own "whole house" DVR devices but I don't know if they can handle eight TVs. Dish I think is limited to six but my Dish tech said he would advise waiting for "version 2".

Streaming ripped DVD/BD content is simple but the maintaining the store content will take a bit of work - and the legality of the whole thing is in question.

Without doing a detailed analysis my gut is that $5000 is much too low.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
fcwilt is offline  
post #7 of 18 Old 05-11-2012, 11:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jautor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,787
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

With only one CATx run I think your only option is HDBaseT which can support both a network connection and HDMI connection. Now I haven't seen such devices on the market yet but then I haven't looked all that hard.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

Works like a champ.

Quote:


Aside from money and the "missing" CatX cable the only thing I don't know how to do is record from the SAT receivers to a centralized server. The SAT companies have their own "whole house" DVR devices but I don't know if they can handle eight TVs. Dish I think is limited to six but my Dish tech said he would advise waiting for "version 2".

"Hard" as in "not going to happen". Everything is protected, you'll be into hacking (which we're not going to talk about on this forum).

The sat systems can certainly handle large numbers of displays and recording streams. Just may need multiple DVRs to handle it.

Jeff

Rock Creek Theater -- CIH, Panamorph, Martin Logan, SVS PB2000, Carada Masquerade, Grafik Eye, Bar table, Green Glue, JVC RS50 
Theater build photos: http://photobucket.com/autor-ht

jautor is online now  
post #8 of 18 Old 05-11-2012, 11:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jautor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,787
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by boostinzx View Post

I do realize that I really need to consult a local pro, but I just feel bad asking for their help and then not buying anything from them and doing the labor ourselves...

No one is going to design the setup for free... They may answer some questions, but don't expect a pro to be that dumb...

Realize that even if you can get the equipment and get it set up, YOU will be the one responsible for keeping it running. I'd run from any of this. Your boss will be calling you on the weekends because "I can't get HBO downstairs". A/V distribution on this scale is non-trivial - be very careful about what you're effectively signing yourself up for... Pro's get paid for a reason.

Jeff

Rock Creek Theater -- CIH, Panamorph, Martin Logan, SVS PB2000, Carada Masquerade, Grafik Eye, Bar table, Green Glue, JVC RS50 
Theater build photos: http://photobucket.com/autor-ht

jautor is online now  
post #9 of 18 Old 05-11-2012, 11:13 AM
Advanced Member
 
ljo000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 785
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
This is a massive project for a beginner but can be greatly simplified. I assume at the moment you are leaving out receivers, speakers and speaker wire and are just focused on deliver content to each TV zone.

First, I think you should really push your boss to limit the number of independent TV streams to a more reasonable number. When is he ever going to have a situation where he people watching 8 different things? That said, there are 8x8 HDMI matrix switches that would make this possible if you used 8 DVRs/STBs. 8x8 matrix will cost a couple grand vs less than $200 for 4x4. You also have to determine how many different recorded programs he wants to watch at the same time to determine the number of STBs and DVRs.

Next, running more Cat5e or Cat6 might make things easier but there are HDBaseT solutions that make this unnecessary. For example, this one from monoprice would work. HDMI, IR and ethernet over a single Cat5e run would take care of all the signals needed between the central A/V closet and each TV.

That takes care of the basic requirements for a total cost (ex shipping) of under $4000.
8x $219.75 for extenders = $1,758
1x matrix = $2000?
STB/DVR rental = ??
ljo000 is offline  
post #10 of 18 Old 05-11-2012, 11:21 AM
Advanced Member
 
ljo000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 785
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
A better solution would be to use a 4x8 HDBaseT system like this one which is $3000 including the 8 extenders. Then get 3 STBs, 1 HTPC and a HDHomeRun Prime. With this setup you could watch 4 different TV streams on different TVs and/or stream a single recorded stream to any of the 8 TVs. The HTPC could also be used for XBMC, Netflix etc. Total cost is again around $4000 plus 2x cablecard rental and 3x STB rental.

Edit: oops just noticed the matrix is not HDBaseT. You'd have to pull another cable for each TV or find something equivalent using only 1 cable.
ljo000 is offline  
post #11 of 18 Old 05-11-2012, 01:31 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
fcwilt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Smith Mountain Lake, VA
Posts: 1,086
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

The sat systems can certainly handle large numbers of displays and recording streams.
Jeff

The technology can certainly handle it but Dish (at least) has policies that limit how much equipment you can have on a single account.

If memory serves me (and it may not) Dish's new whole house system is limited (by policy) to 2 hoppers and 4 joeys, driving 6 TVs.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
fcwilt is offline  
post #12 of 18 Old 05-11-2012, 04:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jautor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,787
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

The technology can certainly handle it but Dish (at least) has policies that limit how much equipment you can have on a single account.

Which provides further proof why D* seems to rule the high end installs...

Rock Creek Theater -- CIH, Panamorph, Martin Logan, SVS PB2000, Carada Masquerade, Grafik Eye, Bar table, Green Glue, JVC RS50 
Theater build photos: http://photobucket.com/autor-ht

jautor is online now  
post #13 of 18 Old 05-11-2012, 05:54 PM
Senior Member
 
cntp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I've seen a house with around 30 direct tv receivers. Not that it was a well designed system, but I've seen it. Every time you call direct tv, you have to convince them that it is really a residence, not a business.
cntp is offline  
post #14 of 18 Old 05-11-2012, 06:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Neurorad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Give a monkey a brain...
Posts: 5,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Just sign up with DirecTV. Installation is free.

But if he's looking for something more high end, sign up as a Crestron dealer, and start using Crestron control for video conference installations. You will likely end up using a local Crestron dealer for the resi video distribution, but you will learn a lot to prepare for the process, and the quality of your installs will improve.

Crestron DM is the top of the line video distribution system.

Anyway, if your boss doesn't want to use DirecTV, run away, and get quotes from local custom installers.

You may be surprised at how many commercial installs use Crestron.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. -Buddha

Give a monkey a brain and he'll swear he's the center of the universe. -Fishbone
Neurorad is offline  
post #15 of 18 Old 05-11-2012, 06:09 PM
Senior Member
 
cntp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post

Just sign up with DirecTV. Installation is free.

But if he's looking for something more high end, sign up as a Crestron dealer, and start using Crestron control for video conference installations. You will likely end up using a local Crestron dealer for the resi video distribution, but you will learn a lot to prepare for the process, and the quality of your installs will improve.

Crestron DM is the top of the line video distribution system.

Anyway, if your boss doesn't want to use DirecTV, run away, and get quotes from local custom installers.

You may be surprised at how many commercial installs use Crestron.

Agree...
cntp is offline  
post #16 of 18 Old 05-12-2012, 11:28 AM
Senior Member
 
Pvr4Craig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Near Toronto, Canada
Posts: 317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by boostinzx View Post

...distribute audio and video throughout his house from 1 location ... satellite tv to 8 zones ... movies and music on this media server and pipe to each of the 8 zones ... Behind every TV in the 8 zones, there is Coax, and Cat5e ...

Another possibility is a client-server PVR system like MythTV. Put a backend server box in the central room and use HDPVR capture devices to record from the satellite boxes. A client machine (aka "Frontend") will be needed at each TV location. Through them, you select and play recorded or live TV, play movies that have been stored to the backend, access internet video sources, play music, etc. It would be tight but not impossible to do this for the $5,000 budget you mentioned. (That doesn't include the TVs, sound systems, or satellite boxes, does it?)

Craig
Pvr4Craig is offline  
post #17 of 18 Old 05-12-2012, 05:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Neurorad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Give a monkey a brain...
Posts: 5,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Even with free installation of DirecTV, with all TVs sharing the same DVR, he can get a few nice control options set up in several zones, using Crestron or another control system.

He should be using Crestron or AMX for control of his commercial installs, anyway, for demanding clients.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. -Buddha

Give a monkey a brain and he'll swear he's the center of the universe. -Fishbone
Neurorad is offline  
post #18 of 18 Old 05-14-2012, 05:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
caper_1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Cape Breton, Canada
Posts: 1,473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Hmmmm.... that's a crazy project. I think streaming would be the way to go (WDTV, Apple TV). Something along those lines... as for music. Same idea... Music Unlimited, pandora, or whatever. This is assuming no amplified music in any of the rooms right? IE, you will be using th TV speakers...

HT: Yamaha RX-V565 | 3 X Energy Take FPS, 2 X VS Surround, 2 X Take LCR | DIY Subs: SDX12 APR15 & TRIO12 Dual APR 12's | 47" LCD

Music: Yamaha RX-V863 | 2 X Energy RC-70 | MA RXw12 Sub

Bathroom: 2 X Energy Take LCR

Car: Sony Xplod HU, Xplod 6X9s, Kenwood 4"s, Alpine 12" Type-S, Rockford Amp,...

caper_1 is offline  
Reply Home A/V Distribution

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off