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post #181 of 194 Old 02-05-2013, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Skytrooper View Post

Why can't we all just get along?smile.gif You need RG-6 and CAT 5E at all your locations.

If I had to guess, those of us who are anti-RG6 personally ran a lot of cable to a network closet at a real cost, only to find out that it was a waste of money and time. Running structured cable is a gigantic pain, and running CAT6 is superduper easy.

Hell hath no fury like a someone who has followed good advice only to find it out of date!
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post #182 of 194 Old 02-05-2013, 06:43 PM
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Just as an aside - unless things have changed recently DirecTV will ONLY support the Genie whole home DVR using MoCA on coax. Yes, it can and does work on 100BaseT, but they haven't "officially" supported it.

Jeff

It goes over coax for about one foot before it reaches the tuner box since everything is in the equipment rack. I have the HR34 and two H25 HD receivers for a total of three available simultaneous streams. These three streams become three different sources on the 8x8 HDMI Matrix and are shipped out over Cat6 from there to the display's balun for the final foot of signal transmission over HDMI. That's the genius and ease of simplicity of the distributed HDMI system.

As a side note, one of the H25s I have is an "owned" unit, not leased. You can find these occasionally on eBay when they are removed from commercial installations. As it is just my wife and I, the most "different" DirecTV streams we could ever watch at one time is two. But I bought a third receiver so that if we have guests I could call DirecTV and have the receiver active for a day, five days, whatever. DirecTV then prorates the lease fee. So 99% of the time it is off an inactive. But within minutes I could have it active an online available to the distributed system.

I know DirecTV plans to provide more flexibility with their media system by allowing it to run on a layered TCP/IP network without any coax whatsoever except the one that provides signal to the Genie. We'll see when that is released. Heck, I've only had the HR34 for 9 months and they already have the HR44....*sigh*...
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post #183 of 194 Old 02-05-2013, 07:18 PM
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BigAww - I'm sorry I didn't make it through all 75 chapters of your last posts, but I caught the gist of your point - you LOVE cable. And what better way to show your affection than a t-shirt you can wear anywhere you go.



In fact, if I didn't know any better I would say that you worked for Belden, Liberty or one of the major wire manufacturers and you were behind on your sales quota, hence the impassioned pleas to run as much RG6 as possible. Do it for yourself! Do it for the next homeowner! And the next homeowner!

Like Jautor and I, we will agree to disagree on the value of having unused RG6 in the wall.

I thought I would dig up a few of my old pictures from my system in the early 2000s which had a component video and distributed audio system. I had cable at the time and ran dual RG6 Quad shield to every display and potential display location in the house. Some bedrooms had two or even three different TV locations. I had the cable guy give me the actual signal db rating and then I proceeded to engineer a precise system of amplifiers and splitters to ensure perfect picture quality. I mounted a huge Winegard UHF antenna in my attic and used a compass to optimize its position to receive the best HD signal from the most terrestrial antennas. I had several bullet filters (shown at the top) that would filter the cable at a specific frequency so I could create three different TV channels on the cable system using a three zone Channel Vision modulator. In short, it was your best RG6 wet dream times ten....

Here's a pic as I was nearing completion of my wiring. Everything wasn't neatened and bundled 100% at this point, but I couldn't find my final photos in a pinch. This should give you a good idea of my last structured cable system:



So, what did I end up using out of this highly engineered structured RG-6 cable system? Exactly 6 wires....Three to each of the three cable DVRs, one from the FM antenna in the attic, one from the Winegard HD antenna in the attic and one from the modulator. That's it. Every display in the house was connected to an 8x16 Extron Crosspoint Matrix switcher and exactly ZERO of the wires in all of those display locations was ever used in seven years.

Here's a pic of the back of my old rack showing my three cable boxes with the component video wiring. The amplifier was my old Lexicon LX-7 7-channel amplifier, fyi:



Einstein's "theory of insanity" is doing the exact same thing and expecting different results. I, for one, am no longer going to do the same thing and reap the savings of not doing a structured RG6 cable system.

Cheers.
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post #184 of 194 Old 02-05-2013, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by archbid View Post

Thank you for responding to my post. No snark, I like that this conversation is happening. Let me try to parse what I am hearing:

Side 1 (RG6): Cable, Satellite, and most commercial video distribution in 99.9% of American households presumes RG6 near the TV. Leave it out and people will sit there with a cable box in their hands in their daughter's room going "WTF!". In addition, the vast number of homes with RG6 will drive investment in RG6 as the transport layer for new devices and distribution.

Side 2 (CAT6): RG6 is an analog relic. We should respect those engineers who figured out how to get signals in everyone's home, but we should also respect that it is 20th century tech and is going nowhere but out. There is simply too much advantage in terms of control, distribution, signal routing and integration to a layered topology like TCP/IP over any purpose-built networks (and yes, this also includes IR and serial, BTW).

So, where you stand on this one depends on where you are sitting. If you are an installer, or if you give a darn about a subsequent owner, you really should install one RG6 to the main rooms where it is likely you will have a TV. Maybe two if you have a fetish for old devices with two inputs, if you want OTA and pay, or if you want FM and pay. But do it understanding fully that for all the reasons above, most of that RG6 cable you install will only serve to weigh your house down in the event of a tornado. But sometimes courtesy has a cost.

If it is your home, take it from TmcG and I, running RG6 is a waste unless you plan to use it NOW. It is not a future tech, and building a distribution system using it is ridiculous - if you are affording thousands in equipment, you can afford baluns. I have run 1000s of feet of RG6 that has no value at all, largely because there is zero odds that I am leasing 5-7 set top boxes from comcast and paying a per-screen fee. That game is over.

My only real beef with biggAW is referring to RG6 as the most important. I understand the argument that there is a lot of coax in people's houses, but why does that matter for a homeowner? Obviously, if they are wiring, they don't have the coax legacy, so that can't be the issue. The only other effect would be the the presence of coax in American homes will drive investment decisions on the part of consumer electronics companies and force TCP/IP over RG6. That analysis is not borne out in the market:

1. Most cable is not installed in a way that will support networking - Lots of daisy chain and splitters means a lot of useless cable for networking
2. Amazon, Google and Apple are driving this, not random small companies or niche players. And not one of their devices has a coax input. Microsoft is the only one that even considers it, with TV tuner integration in MCE, but the rest ignore it. If there were not a federal mandate, the coax would disappear from Samsung and the others overnight.
3. Consumer electronics companies know that virtually no houses are wired with CAT5/6, but they are dealing with that by supporting Wifi, not Coax. No serious player is leading with coax networking.
4. The satellite vendors squeezed out all of the independent set top box players, so there is nobody left to give a s**t about coax, and I would not hold my breath waiting for Directv to lead the market. Their only move is to delay

The installed base of coax, as a result, is irrelevant to anyone who is wiring their own home, and is largely irrelevant to the major players.

I think you nailed Side 1 on the head in terms of future development, but calling it an analog relic is harsh, as current coaxial systems are loaded to the gills with QAM256 digital, and most of them only have one analog channel left- the test pattern.

I would argue that Side 2 is arguing for whole-home distribution, which, for the most part is NOT IP-based, but rather, is using HDBaseT or some other HDMI-over-CAT technology. However, I don't think the sides are at war, as anyone who does a decent pre-wire will be pre-wiring both to all locations anyways.

RG-6 is king because it's the one thing you really NEED. Most homes don't have CAT cable at all, and get along just fine. By no means am I suggesting that anyone should skip pre-wiring CAT cable, as I am a huge fan of hardwired Ethernet, but everything out there is designed to work without CAT cable in the walls, because most people don't have it.

1. DirecTV, DISH, Verizon, and Comcast are already running TCP/IP over coax through variations of MoCA (not sure about DISH, and DirecTV's DECA is MoCA frequency shifted to work with satellite). Yes, you have to clean the wiring up a bit, but cleaning up wiring and swapping a few splitters around is a whole heck of a lot easier than pulling new CAT cable all over the place. Even if you have to add some RG-6, you can connect that with existing wiring easily.

2. Amazon, Google, and Apple have nothing to do with coax, as they are not working with the MSOs. And these devices can work through MoCA if desired, with adapters. That has nothing to do with a pre-wire though, as a pre-wire will have CAT cable for Ethernet anyways.

3. TiVo, DirecTV, Comcast, DISH, Verizon, AT&T. Even if you count TiVo out, you can't really discount the rest...

4. HUH? DirecTV's DECA system is purely coax based.

NO. The installed base is absolutely relevant, as the two main players in wiring today are RG-6 and CAT-5e/6. Anyone not wiring for both in a big way has no business doing a pre-wire. The major players will be using coax for a long, long time, as that's what's out there. They will use what's available to them, as they don't really have any other choice. Do you think DirecTV is going to go into 17 million households, and start pulling miles of wire? First of all, the customers would just get rid of the service if they had to run new wire for it, and secondly, DirecTV is just going to use DECA, since it does everything they need with the wiring that they have access to. Heck, there's a reason they switched from needing two RG-6 runs for a DVR to one with SWiM, as there were places they couldn't install too, and the extra wire running was costing them a lot in installer labor. They went back to what everyone has, one RG-6.
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post #185 of 194 Old 02-05-2013, 07:49 PM
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Your attitude about "its useless unless I need it NOW" is completely against the whole mission of a pre-wire, which is to be as prepared as you can for whatever technologies come down the road, whether they use RG-6, CAT-5, wireless, whatever. The argument against fiber makes sense, but everything else (i.e. RG-6 and CAT-5e) is obviously mandatory in order to meet the mission of a pre-wire job.

Also, you go on about box fees. It is economical to avoid box fees using MCE and extenders. Putting in a centralized HDMI matrix system will NEVER, EVER, EVER make you back the box fees, even in the most extreme situations. By the time you've made back a few pennies on the dollar, it will be time to upgrade to something newer and better and spend even more of the big bucks. There are reasons to get a centralized matrix-switched system, but cost is not one of them. It's about functionality.
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post #186 of 194 Old 02-05-2013, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

Your attitude about "its useless unless I need it NOW" is completely against the whole mission of a pre-wire, which is to be as prepared as you can for whatever technologies come down the road, whether they use RG-6, CAT-5, wireless, whatever.

Yes, this is about folks doing pre-wire TODAY. In five years, this advice may very well change - might be even sooner. But I'm not willing to make that bet (no RG6) for my own home, and even if someone else is, I think giving that advice generally to others is not sound.
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The argument against fiber makes sense, but everything else (i.e. RG-6 and CAT-5e) is obviously mandatory in order to meet the mission of a pre-wire job.

But Bigg, fiber in the home has been the future for like 20 years now! biggrin.gif And yes, cat5e/catX is probably the future - the only question is when is that 100% true for everyone...

(my objoke about fiber in the home: "At least that Teflon insulation makes it strong - you can tie the right cable to it and use it as a fantastically expensive pull string!")

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post #187 of 194 Old 02-06-2013, 05:45 AM
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TMcG,

You forgot to snip a Ty-Wrap. smile.gif Really, nice wiring.
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post #188 of 194 Old 02-06-2013, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

BigAww - I'm sorry I didn't make it through all 75 chapters of your last posts, but I caught the gist of your point - you LOVE cable. And what better way to show your affection than a t-shirt you can wear anywhere you go.

Ok. That's great. You don't know what's coming next. The point of a pre-wire is to be ready for not only what is now (cable or DirecTV plus gig Ethernet), but whatever is next, and not including the most commonly used wire in the US makes a pre-wire an abject failure at it's goal. If you're not going to do it right, don't do it. You're clearly not hurting for money here. No one ways you have to actually plug it into anything, just have it and be ready for what's next. I hope you have fun drilling holes and fishing cable when you actually need RG-6 after your botched half-ass failure of a pre-wire.
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But Bigg, fiber in the home has been the future for like 20 years now! biggrin.gif And yes, cat5e/catX is probably the future - the only question is when is that 100% true for everyone...

(my objoke about fiber in the home: "At least that Teflon insulation makes it strong - you can tie the right cable to it and use it as a fantastically expensive pull string!")

Hah. You can use fiber, it just ends up being more expensive to do that than use CAT cable. I doubt we'll ever have fiber in the home, as it just doesn't help anything. There's also no way for it to creep in. RG-6 came with antennas and then analog cable and now satellite and QAM-256 cable systems, and CAT cable evolved out of quad-wire for telephones. Fiber has nothing to evolve out of. Even Verizon FIOS brings fiber to the exterior of the building, and the service comes in on RG-6. Google Fiber comes in on fiber, but then is copper out to the other computers and STBs.
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post #189 of 194 Old 02-06-2013, 02:22 PM
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It seems I have forgotten my Mark Twain....

“Do not argue with an idiot...they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

Smart man.
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post #190 of 194 Old 02-06-2013, 04:53 PM
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It seems I have forgotten my Mark Twain....

“Do not argue with an idiot...they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

Smart man.

You're the one who's totally f***ing up a [not-really] pre-wire, not me. Have fun in a few years when you need RG-6 for something. Hope you enjoy pulling wires and tearing walls apart because you wanted to save a few hundred bucks in the first place.
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post #191 of 194 Old 02-06-2013, 06:24 PM
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post #192 of 194 Old 02-22-2013, 04:54 AM
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post #193 of 194 Old 03-12-2013, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Careful BiggAW....your experience is showing...rolleyes.gif

I have experience with not pre-wiring, and now I know better. Next time I'm in a position to pre-wire, I will pre-wire, and I will do it correctly, with at least 2x RG-6QS and 2x CAT-6 per room.
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post #194 of 194 Old 08-24-2013, 09:25 AM
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Besides the pissing contest going on, this is a very useful thread. I have a new (to me) home, that I am wiring before we move in.
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