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post #1 of 14 Old 12-03-2012, 11:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Good evening all. I was looking to do a Control4 system with a new home build but am thinking now about going with the Elan g. I will have 9 TVs (4 BR's, 1 Patio, 1 Garage, 1 Rec Room, 1 Theater Room, and 1 Bar). All areas will have speakers (1 area 7.1-Theater, 1 area 5.1- Rec Room, and 1 area 3.1-Great Room) and then will have audio only speakers in other locations. With that being said I would like to distribute 4 DirecTV boxes, PS3 (if possible), 2 BluRay boxes, and maybe 1-2 other sources. I will be doing all the wiring for speakers and all the install of the speakers myself. Thinking of running Cat6 (3 runs) to each room for the video distribution but am not sure if i need a wall mount for controlling audio in audio only areas (ie- Patio, Porch, Dining). Would like the ability to control from iDevices but in the dining room can use a "in wall" controller. I have been researching this daily but getting confused on what equipment is needed. If you have questions, please let me know. I am new to this, but wanna try and do SOME on my own but understand the need to maybe get a pro involved. THANK YOU

PS- Local A/V Store priced out the Control4 and it came to 45K... Seems a bit overpriced but they added Just Add Power to each room for the video. Elan g! doesn't seem to need that, but what is best. Not sure on equipment needed for Elan g! Please help.

Attached Floorplan with what I am looking for...

Main Level.pdf 126k .pdf file
Basement.pdf 86k .pdf file
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File Type: pdf Main Level.pdf (126.3 KB, 31 views)
File Type: pdf Basement.pdf (86.0 KB, 19 views)
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post #2 of 14 Old 12-04-2012, 12:04 AM
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That's a good size project you've got on your hands there. Should be a fun one.

FWIW, $45k doesn't sound out of line at all to me for a job of this scale. Depending on how they designed the system, you may be able to get that price down by stripping out a bell here and a whistle there. Removing the Just Add Power stuff probably won't save you that much if you really want to video distribution that you've described here. Reason being, a good 8x8 HDMI matrix (you have 9 TV's) will set you back about $4k before baluns.

Anyhow, the nuts and bolts of a system like this could drive you mad. But don't let the first bid freak you out. Get a second proposal from another C4 dealer if it will put you at ease. But if you do, just remember that the lowest bidder isn't always the best option. A system like this will require ongoing service and maintenance. So spending a little more up front for a clean and well-documented install is money well spent.

If you are planning to do it yourself, just make sure you document and label everything. The wiring is fairly straightforward. 16/4 to the speakers should be fine. 3 cat6's to each TV location should cover you. You could wire some of your rooms for LAUNCH PORTS, which are super slick. And don't forget to strategically wire for WAP's in a couple of locations. That one gets overlooked all the time. Lastly, make sure you have a conversation with your General Contractor, Cabinet Contractor, and even perhaps your HVAC guy to ensure that all equipment locations are adequately sized, cooled, and ventilated.

Hope that helps a little.
JG
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post #3 of 14 Old 12-04-2012, 05:34 AM
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You forgot to include some lighting control.

Your GC agreed to let you run your speaker cables yourself? Good job.

That price for C4 - that's control only, and programmed? Are they installing the cat 6 too? Remotes for the TVs not mentioned.

+1 WAPs, and hardwired LAN drops to each TV, and other locations.

You can save some money and skip the DTV and BDP distribution. DTV has its own distribution system, and BDPs are super cheap. And you don't want to walk to the wiring closet to change the disc. Speaking of wiring closets, any discussion of rack mounting the equipment, with the C4 installer?

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post #4 of 14 Old 12-04-2012, 09:26 AM
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Cocoontech has a great Wiring Your New House 101 where they cover all the possibilities from the common and standard to stuff to the most eccentric.
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post #5 of 14 Old 12-11-2012, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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All... Thank you for the inputs and here is what I know...

1- Install just covered the Just add Power 2G boxes and B&W Speakers to each room, plus the equipment needed to control the C4 equipment. I believe it also included a small cisco router and WAP
2- This did not include any wiring or controllers
3- Curious to the above post that said that DTV has a distribution system. If I'm not mistaken, if you're talking about the Whole Home system, you still need to have boxes at all locations. I was trying to eliminate the clutter and mess at all locations.
4- After reading the replies, it seems as though some might not recommend the video distribution but instead just the audio portion.
5- What would be best way to distribute video say from the Master BR or from the Great Room, say out to the patio or a TV in the garage? It almost sounds as though you recommend do a 4X4 box and just distribute to a few TV possibly instead of doing 9. True?

If anyone has a great DIY suggestion as to what is best system to do what I'm looking, even scaled down, I'm down for suggestions.
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post #6 of 14 Old 12-11-2012, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholsps View Post

3- Curious to the above post that said that DTV has a distribution system. If I'm not mistaken, if you're talking about the Whole Home system, you still need to have boxes at all locations. I was trying to eliminate the clutter and mess at all locations.

Yes, the whole home system, but there are new client boxes (C31) that can be tucked behind the TV, and 2011/2012 Samsung TVs (some models) have the RVU client built-in, so no external hardware is required.

That shouldn't change your wiring, though, as you'll want to prepare for the day you switch providers. But if you're going down the JustAddPower path, adding another source or two won't change your total cost much. But for primary spaces, you'll want a dedicated, local BD player, too.
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After reading the replies, it seems as though some might not recommend the video distribution but instead just the audio portion.

Video distribution is going through a lot of change and new product cycles - with streaming video directly to the display, RVU setups and the like, it's worth figuring out how much you really need, as a lot can change in this area in the not too distant future. But again, get that wiring right!
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What would be best way to distribute video say from the Master BR or from the Great Room, say out to the patio or a TV in the garage? It almost sounds as though you recommend do a 4X4 box and just distribute to a few TV possibly instead of doing 9. True?

If you go the JustAddPower route, a source can be anywhere on the network. But do you really mean to have sources in those rooms you want to send elsewhere? Unless you mean placing the BD player(s) in those locations for the local TV, and splitting the outputs to a become a JustAddPower source - that would be a good way to do it...

The suggestions to get into a 4x4 (or maybe a pair of them, sharing some sources) or a 4x8 is that the cost of those matrix products is significantly less expensive than an 8x8 or bigger.
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If anyone has a great DIY suggestion as to what is best system to do what I'm looking, even scaled down, I'm down for suggestions.

I skipped all the hassles of HDMI distribution and continue to use Component video, with local BD players in key areas. Super reliable, glitch-free, and (relatively) inexpensive...

Jeff

Rock Creek Theater -- CIH, Panamorph, Martin Logan, SVS PB2000, Carada Masquerade, Grafik Eye, Bar table, Green Glue, JVC RS50 
Theater build photos: http://photobucket.com/autor-ht
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post #7 of 14 Old 12-12-2012, 03:39 PM
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Yes, the new C31 DirecTV client boxes are small enough to be mounted to the back of a flat panel TV, or located within a recessed box behind the TV.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. -Buddha

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post #8 of 14 Old 12-12-2012, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Great. I think I have found a new solution and think that all the inputs have been AWESOME. Now, after seeing that DTV offered a distribution system without the need for a box in each location, this is the way I think I will go. I think I will add 2 Genie boxes and wire the home to have 3 Cat6A at each location with one RG6 bundled on the wall plate with it. Will also add AppleTV's to all rooms to distribute the iTunes movies of 800 movies in my library. So basically it will be:

1- 2X DTV Genies to have up to 8 distributed rooms with 2 DVRs (1 in Master BR and 1 in Great Room)... Is there a way to chain these together so all the DVR info from both can be distributed to ALL TVs?
2- Will have Distributed Audio (opinions on Russound or NUVO). Need opinions here and advice on best way to do this. Want 7.1 in theater room and 5.1 in Rec Room. Will I need 2 separate A/V Receivers?
3- Putting 2 speakers in All BR's, Kitchen, Master Bath, Patio, Porch... To do the wall plates to control either the NUVO or the Russound, do you run the wire from the speaker to it, or do you run speaker wire back to source and separate wire to wall plates? Do wall plates have to have low voltage power or is it Cat6 to it for power?
4- Apple TV's to main TV locations and Bed Rooms
5- All components will run to a rack located in a location, but I need help as to where this might be best located. Is there a way to run everything (Cat6) and speaker wire back to Mech Room but still be able to control Rec Room and Theater from their locations in basement (where Mec Room is also located) or is it best to have the A/V Receivers where the TVs are? (Apple TVs and BD for theater and Rec Room will be with TVs after reading above or can they be in Mech Room also and still controlled... NOT A FAR WALK since in basement also).

THANK YOU ALL FOR INPUTS!!!!
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post #9 of 14 Old 12-12-2012, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholsps View Post

1- 2X DTV Genies to have up to 8 distributed rooms with 2 DVRs (1 in Master BR and 1 in Great Room)... Is there a way to chain these together so all the DVR info from both can be distributed to ALL TVs?

Don't think so - and you'll want to talk to a competent D* installer, as you'd require a SWM16 to support >8 tuners (not sure two HR34 Genie units would function on a standard SWM8 dish, meaning would they limit themselves to 4 tuners each or just fail?).
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2- Will have Distributed Audio (opinions on Russound or NUVO). Need opinions here and advice on best way to do this. Want 7.1 in theater room and 5.1 in Rec Room. Will I need 2 separate A/V Receivers?

Depends on how many zones you want and what sources and how you want to control them. I went with NuVo for the keypad support with metadata - but either of those systems will work, but you should consider their matching music server products as mandatory.

The 5.1/7.1 systems are best kept separate - you can remotely locate them if you want (more wire!), but understand that it can complicate the video path if the video source isn't in the same location as the AVR.
Quote:
3- Putting 2 speakers in All BR's, Kitchen, Master Bath, Patio, Porch... To do the wall plates to control either the NUVO or the Russound, do you run the wire from the speaker to it, or do you run speaker wire back to source and separate wire to wall plates? Do wall plates have to have low voltage power or is it Cat6 to it for power?

CEA standard practice is to loop the speaker wire through a wallplate on the way back to the homerun location, so that either a central amp or a keypad-sized digital amp can be used. Both styles also need a cat5e wire to the keypad. Low-volt power will come over cat5e for these systems.
Quote:
5- All components will run to a rack located in a location, but I need help as to where this might be best located. Is there a way to run everything (Cat6) and speaker wire back to Mech Room but still be able to control Rec Room and Theater from their locations in basement (where Mec Room is also located) or is it best to have the A/V Receivers where the TVs are? (Apple TVs and BD for theater and Rec Room will be with TVs after reading above or can they be in Mech Room also and still controlled... NOT A FAR WALK since in basement also).

Matter of preference and availability of space for the AVRs in those locations. Note that you'll want a local blu-ray player (and other sources) near your primary areas so you don't have to walk around the house to load a disc/game. In my house, there's a rack in the theater, and A/V gear in the family room entertainment center cabinetry, but those two rooms, and all other rooms in the house, are wired to the central closet for DirecTV, other video sources, and the NuVo gear.

Jeff

Rock Creek Theater -- CIH, Panamorph, Martin Logan, SVS PB2000, Carada Masquerade, Grafik Eye, Bar table, Green Glue, JVC RS50 
Theater build photos: http://photobucket.com/autor-ht
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post #10 of 14 Old 12-12-2012, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Jeff...

Explain to me how you have the AVR in the main room with the TV, but your other gear in a central location. Can you tell me how your runs are for A/V? Thanks!
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post #11 of 14 Old 12-12-2012, 10:34 PM
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Video matrix provides shared sources to the AVR in those zones. I use a component over cat5 matrix, but the concept is the same with HDMI... A separate cat5 cross-connects the AVR to my NuVo system so either can receive audio from the other.

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post #12 of 14 Old 12-12-2012, 11:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I think i get it... Are the AVRs local just so you can provide an input opportunity for say a PS3 or a BD in the same location? I'm assuming the output feeds the matrix and then that routes to back to those locations?
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post #13 of 14 Old 12-13-2012, 07:02 AM
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No, the matrix feeds the AVR on its way to the zone's display. Think of each zone as a display - just some zones have a fancy display with outboard amps and speakers... The AVR handles switching among sources, both local and from the matrix.

Jeff

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post #14 of 14 Old 12-14-2012, 03:42 AM
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Having a mix of Centralised 'whole house' Sources plus dedicated Sources for your main Cinema Zones is a good option for many folk.

Audio wise you have to think through how you deliver the required audio stream to any Zone plus how to keep it 'in-sync' with a video display.

Your Source's cant simultaneously deliver 2.0, 5.1 and 7.1 via HDMI so unless all of your Zones handle up to 7.1 via HDMI keeping your Whole House Sources delivering Video + 2.0 via HDMI via a Matrix and then having some Sources direct to your AVR's for up to 7.1 via HDMI can work well.

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