Include house plan. Help me figured out speaker placement and what system do I need for WH Audio - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 04-14-2013, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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HI,

I am planning my new house construction that will begin later this year. I'm at the planning stage for wiring the whole house for audio distribution. Looking at the plan, I put red circle where I think the speakers should go. Note that there will be a basement with a dedicated home theater ( located under the 1st floor kitchen) with independant audio. I would like to add more speakers in the basement outside the HT for the game room.

Here is what I would like to have/accomplish:


1. Central location in the basement for all the audio/video distribution hardware
2. Having a system that will include these functionality : intercom, door bell, phone.
3. Wall plate and Ipad control capabilities

I need your help to figure out:

1.Does my speaker placement make sense and if there is enough of them. ( for outside on the plan there is some for the patio,but I will also like to add a couple in the pool area as well.?

2. Looking at Nuvo and HTD system, which one will offer all I wanted and would be best for my situation.And what would I need to cover every room in the house?
2a. Any other system for this? I don't see a lot of comments on Nexus system?

3. I am kind of confuse about how many zone vs room I can have on a sytem?

4. Speaker wires, should they be run to the wall plate or to the centralize system in the basement?

5. 1 Cat wire from all wall plates in the home to the centralize location?

6. Looking at the Nuvo concerto system, I see that in the back of the component there are 6 zones where you can connect speaker wires directly, the other 2 zones I don't understand, can you help me clarify?

7. I will use a NAS for my music, how will I connect it to the system for it to recognize that all my music is there?

I think I'll start with that. All your help will be greatly appreciated.

[URL=http:// ][/URL]

Thanks

Stephane
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post #2 of 22 Old 04-14-2013, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephrich1 View Post

HI,

I am planning my new house construction that will begin later this year. I'm at the planning stage for wiring the whole house for audio distribution. Looking at the plan, I put red circle where I think the speakers should go. Note that there will be a basement with a dedicated home theater ( located under the 1st floor kitchen) with independant audio. I would like to add more speakers in the basement outside the HT for the game room.

Here is what I would like to have/accomplish:


1. Central location in the basement for all the audio/video distribution hardware
2. Having a system that will include these functionality : intercom, door bell, phone.
3. Wall plate and Ipad control capabilities

I need your help to figure out:

1.Does my speaker placement make sense and if there is enough of them. ( for outside on the plan there is some for the patio,but I will also like to add a couple in the pool area as well.?

2. Looking at Nuvo and HTD system, which one will offer all I wanted and would be best for my situation.And what would I need to cover every room in the house?
2a. Any other system for this? I don't see a lot of comments on Nexus system?

3. I am kind of confuse about how many zone vs room I can have on a sytem?

4. Speaker wires, should they be run to the wall plate or to the centralize system in the basement?

5. 1 Cat wire from all wall plates in the home to the centralize location?

6. Looking at the Nuvo concerto system, I see that in the back of the component there are 6 zones where you can connect speaker wires directly, the other 2 zones I don't understand, can you help me clarify?

7. I will use a NAS for my music, how will I connect it to the system for it to recognize that all my music is there?

I think I'll start with that. All your help will be greatly appreciated.

[URL=http:// ][/URL]

Thanks

Stephane

I am in the same boat as you and my pre-wire is very soon. I have decided for me personally that the idea of speakers in every room is overkill.

I am going to skip the bedrooms, bathrooms, and backyard.

I am going to do great room, kitchen: in-ceiling. Garage, work out room, and screened in porch: in-wall speakers. Not sure how I am going to do bar area yet. that adjoins utility area so I will wire that later.. Two outdoor speakers on house by patio.

I will have a dedicated home theater in rec room and game room, and will do a small hi-fi analog system in there so I am going to skip a lot of speakers there.

I am running all my speakers wire to central location in basement. Will not do volume controls in every room. I think for most future audio distribution systems this will be redundant.

I am thinking a Sonos system for now and might look at Control4 in future so keypad locations will be pre-wired for control panels. I really don't have a handle on the hardware portion. Just looking at pre-wire for now. I favor a DIY approach so I am likely to install the in ceiling that need brackets now, and install the inwall myself later.
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post #3 of 22 Old 04-14-2013, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnnymenudo View Post

I am in the same boat as you and my pre-wire is very soon. I have decided for me personally that the idea of speakers in every room is overkill.
I am going to skip the bedrooms, bathrooms, and backyard.

I would highly recommend pre-wiring for those locations so you can easily change your mind later. If you don't, getting wires to any of those spots may be difficult or costly, which will likely mean you'll never do it. You don't have to expose the wires - bury them behind the ceiling and document their locations with photographs. Same for keypad locations.

I use the master bathroom zone every day to listen to the news in the morning. Bedroom speakers can also be shared with an AVR setup to be used as surround channels, which I do as well.
Quote:
I am running all my speakers wire to central location in basement. Will not do volume controls in every room. I think for most future audio distribution systems this will be redundant.

I am thinking a Sonos system for now and might look at Control4 in future so keypad locations will be pre-wired for control panels. I really don't have a handle on the hardware portion. Just looking at pre-wire for now. I favor a DIY approach so I am likely to install the in ceiling that need brackets now, and install the inwall myself later.

Definitely do the pre-wire for keypad locations in each zone. Those can be fairly simple WHA control keypads that do basic volume control and source selection. That's not redundant, that's an additional method to control the system, which doesn't require you to carry around a device or remember where you left it... Generally faster/easier to use for quick adjustments.

Jeff

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post #4 of 22 Old 04-14-2013, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Jeff, I was hoping you would talk to my post. I would really appreciate your thoughts and suggestions for my house

Tx
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post #5 of 22 Old 04-14-2013, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jautor View Post

I would highly recommend pre-wiring for those locations so you can easily change your mind later. If you don't, getting wires to any of those spots may be difficult or costly, which will likely mean you'll never do it. You don't have to expose the wires - bury them behind the ceiling and document their locations with photographs. Same for keypad locations.

I use the master bathroom zone every day to listen to the news in the morning. Bedroom speakers can also be shared with an AVR setup to be used as surround channels, which I do as well.
Definitely do the pre-wire for keypad locations in each zone. Those can be fairly simple WHA control keypads that do basic volume control and source selection. That's not redundant, that's an additional method to control the system, which doesn't require you to carry around a device or remember where you left it... Generally faster/easier to use for quick adjustments.

Jeff

Can you give me an example of WHA control keypads?

So are you saying that you would run a 14/4 to the keypad location and then splice in to the two 14/2 for the speakers and mark it so you could always ad volume later, or would you run 2 14/2 but have them cross a common point where you could splice in a keypad later?
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post #6 of 22 Old 04-14-2013, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Johnnymenudo View Post

Can you give me an example of WHA control keypads?

So are you saying that you would run a 14/4 to the keypad location and then splice in to the two 14/2 for the speakers and mark it so you could always ad volume later, or would you run 2 14/2 but have them cross a common point where you could splice in a keypad later?


HI, Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate your comment but I would suggest that you start your own thread to speak about your setup and all. So that my thread dont get lost in other people questions and setup question they may have for them.

tx
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post #7 of 22 Old 04-14-2013, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by stephrich1 View Post

HI, Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate your comment but I would suggest that you start your own thread to speak about your setup and all. So that my thread dont get lost in other people questions and setup question they may have for them.

tx

Understood.

If you want to be future proof, I think your speaker placementand number is adequate for casual music. I would not use in ceiling speakers for locations where you are going to be primarily stationary and want to enjoy a more immersive experience. I would use in wall speakers for those and set them up with spacing as you would for any critical listening position.

If you ever think you will listen to music or watch tv in bed, wall speakers for front, in ceiling for rear and you can set up surround system in those rooms. Make sure you run plenty of cat5 or cat 6 to any monitor location and run 2 RGQS as well.

I think you want to run cat 5e or cat6 to any potential keypad locations and should home run all of your speaker cable to the central location where you will set up all of your hardware.

Good luck.
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post #8 of 22 Old 04-14-2013, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnnymenudo View Post

Can you give me an example of WHA control keypads?

HTD, NuVo, Russound, Aton all have cat5-based keypads that are not in-line volume controls nor Digi5 / A-bus style in-wall amps...
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So are you saying that you would run a 14/4 to the keypad location and then splice in to the two 14/2 for the speakers and mark it so you could always ad volume later, or would you run 2 14/2 but have them cross a common point where you could splice in a keypad later?

CEA standard has the speaker wire looped through the keypad location. That is still good advice and the most flexible, but it is a pre-wire standard, where one doesn't know what the final equipment might be. As the "higher end" systems all use central amps (not the in-wall amps that require access to the speaker wires), if you skip the speaker wire loops, I wouldn't call you bad names... biggrin.gif

If you do want to be totally flexible, but don't want to leave a blank plate / box at the "future keypad location", then you should run 14/2 x2 all the way. Running the 14/4 to the keypad requires a splice - which you shouldn't do if the wire won't be accessible (buried behind the drywall).

Jeff

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post #9 of 22 Old 04-14-2013, 09:05 PM
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That's a lot of zones! biggrin.gif
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Originally Posted by stephrich1 View Post


As Johnny suggested, I would move the bedroom speakers such that they're over the headboard area (assuming the room dictates one layout that places the bed in the right place). And for the same reasons - it's where your ears will be, and if you place a TV on the opposite wall (which may not work in some of those rooms because of the closets), they can act as surround channels if you do the wiring for that... For the non-master bedrooms, I wouldn't lay out the room as shown, because the beds face the closet doors - I'd rotate 90 degrees so that you can face the blank wall, allowing for a TV placement. But that has to mesh well with other requirements/needs, like a desk for homework! (priorities, priorities)
Quote:
][/URL]

I'm not a fan of the "opposite corner" placement (I know Crutchfield shows this in all their stuff, I don't know where they got that, either).

Garage I would place both in the 2nd car bay, rotated 90 degrees, as that is obviously where the workshop would be, but it can work well either way.

Family room anything there should be tied into the primary system, either sharing the surround channels (local source interrupt), or just connected to the main AVR.


Jeff

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post #10 of 22 Old 04-15-2013, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Johnnymenudo View Post

Understood.


If you ever think you will listen to music or watch tv in bed, wall speakers for front, in ceiling for rear and you can set up surround system in those rooms. Make sure you run plenty of cat5 or cat 6 to any monitor location and run 2 RGQS as well.



Good luck.

Tx for the input, what is RGQS cable?
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post #11 of 22 Old 04-15-2013, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stephrich1 View Post

HI,



Here is what I would like to have/accomplish:

2. Having a system that will include these functionality : intercom, door bell, phone.
3. Wall plate and Ipad control capabilities

I need your help to figure out:

2. Looking at Nuvo and HTD system, which one will offer all I wanted and would be best for my situation.And what would I need to cover every room in the house?
2a. Any other system for this? I don't see a lot of comments on Nexus system?

3. I am kind of confuse about how many zone vs room I can have on a sytem?


5. 1 Cat wire from all wall plates in the home to the centralize location?

6. Looking at the Nuvo concerto system, I see that in the back of the component there are 6 zones where you can connect speaker wires directly, the other 2 zones I don't understand, can you help me clarify?

7. I will use a NAS for my music, how will I connect it to the system for it to recognize that all my music is there?


Any comments or suggestions on these points?

Again, thanks for your help
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post #12 of 22 Old 04-15-2013, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by stephrich1 View Post

Tx for the input, what is RGQS cable?

RG6 "coax". QS = quad shield, which is commonly used but overkill for most of us. Regular RG6 is also fine for most folks, QS is just more expensive and harder to work with, but does provide better shielding from interference (if you're close to transmission towers, etc.).

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post #13 of 22 Old 04-15-2013, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by stephrich1 View Post

1.Does my speaker placement make sense and if there is enough of them. ( for outside on the plan there is some for the patio,but I will also like to add a couple in the pool area as well.?

Sorry, missed those Qs... Run conduit to the back yard exterior wall so you can add more stuff later. If you know you'll want more speakers eventually, run those lines, too. Generally, if you THINK you have a future use for any low-volt wire, run it during construction as it's so much easier/cheaper.
Quote:
2. Looking at Nuvo and HTD system, which one will offer all I wanted and would be best for my situation.And what would I need to cover every room in the house?
2a. Any other system for this? I don't see a lot of comments on Nexus system?

HTD is a great "value". NuVo / Russound provide systems with considerably more functionality (in terms of integration and keypad features) at a higher cost.
Quote:
3. I am kind of confuse about how many zone vs room I can have on a sytem?

A Zone is a controllable element. Volume, source selection is "per zone". You can combine multiple rooms into a single zone in a couple of ways (but always home run the wires so they can be separate zones in the future), and there are times this makes sense. It can be used to squeeze into a smaller system than the number of rooms would dictate.
Quote:
4. Speaker wires, should they be run to the wall plate or to the centralize system in the basement?

For WHA they need to be home run. You can loop them through a wall plate if you want to share them with an AVR (see local source interrupt threads) or may want to use them solely for surround channels (added flexibility).
Quote:
5. 1 Cat wire from all wall plates in the home to the centralize location?

Yes, control wire (cat5e) goes to the same equipment stack as the speakers. WHA systems are typically an integrated controller/amp unit.
Quote:
6. Looking at the Nuvo concerto system, I see that in the back of the component there are 6 zones where you can connect speaker wires directly, the other 2 zones I don't understand, can you help me clarify?

The GC has 8 zones, with amps on-board to power the first 6. Six zones appears to be the sweet spot for WHA systems - adding more amps increases the cost of the system - a waste if you don't need it. So NuVo added two more "unpowered" zones (7&8), which you can enable with an external 'zone amp'. But the controls are all included in the system for all eight zones. Just no power for the last two...
Quote:
7. I will use a NAS for my music, how will I connect it to the system for it to recognize that all my music is there?

Depends on the system. NuVo GC coupled with the MPS4E (Elite model only, the base MPS4 won't read from a NAS) will do this. For the higher-end Russound or NuVo systems, the "matching" streaming/server unit should be considered a mandatory purchase for this reason...


Jeff

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post #14 of 22 Old 04-15-2013, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Great info Jeff. Thank you
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post #15 of 22 Old 04-15-2013, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jautor View Post


A Zone is a controllable element. Volume, source selection is "per zone". You can combine multiple rooms into a single zone in a couple of ways (but always home run the wires so they can be separate zones in the future), and there are times this makes sense.


Jeff

Just for clarification, let's say the 2nd floor is 1 zone, that would mean every room in that zone would listen to the same thing at the same volume? If so, I do not want that.

I want every room seperate, looking at my plan I'm counting 8 zones :

2nd floor: Master bdr&bathroom; 1bdr; 1bdr, Office(where is the laundry room on the plan) = 4 zones
1st floor : Living room&dining room& washroom, Kitchen, garage and patio(pool area) = 4 zones

Now looking at that, I will need the 7&8 zone in a system. so If I understand correctly, I could plug in my avr into one of the 7 or 8 zones and run the speaker wires from let's assume it will be the garage and outdoor to it and that would work? Meaning I would be able to listen to any input from everywhere separately? Not sure I get that part....

Another question that I have is: can a zone like living room&dining&washroom have each their own wall plate for controle like the volume or mute?
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post #16 of 22 Old 04-15-2013, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by stephrich1 View Post

Just for clarification, let's say the 2nd floor is 1 zone, that would mean every room in that zone would listen to the same thing at the same volume? If so, I do not want that.

Correct. A zone is what comes out of the amp - all speakers in the zone get the same thing, at the same volume. You *can* add a 2nd-level volume control to make a "sub-zone", but that's icky.
Quote:
I want every room seperate, looking at my plan I'm counting 8 zones :

2nd floor: Master bdr&bathroom; 1bdr; 1bdr, Office(where is the laundry room on the plan) = 4 zones
1st floor : Living room&dining room& washroom, Kitchen, garage and patio(pool area) = 4 zones

I also count 8, but would keep the master bed and bath separate. Someone in the bathroom while the other is (still) sleeping...
To keep to eight, I'd combine the living room and dining since they're open to each other anyway (plus the washroom, if you really want that).

(scratch that, you've got 9 zones as it stands. And you certainly don't want to combine the garage/patio, as you'll accidentally play stuff outside when you don't want to... )
Quote:
Now looking at that, I will need the 7&8 zone in a system. so If I understand correctly, I could plug in my avr into one of the 7 or 8 zones and run the speaker wires from let's assume it will be the garage and outdoor to it and that would work? Meaning I would be able to listen to any input from everywhere separately? Not sure I get that part....

AVR as a "zone amp" can work, but if it's remote from the zone, it'll have to be dedicated to the WHA source(s), otherwise you'd have the second volume control problem again. For the living room, for example, an AVR can be a fine choice, as you run the zone 7 fixed line output to any open source input on the AVR, and switch to it whenever you want to hear "the house music".

For locations like the patio or garage, where the equipment won't be "nearby", a cheap zone amp with auto-on/off sensing like the AudioSource AMP-100 at <$100 is a better choice.
Quote:
Another question that I have is: can a zone like living room&dining&washroom have each their own wall plate for controle like the volume or mute?

Depends on the system, but NuVo gear allows for multiple keypads assigned to one zone, as well as a single keypad to control multiple zones.

Jeff

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post #17 of 22 Old 04-15-2013, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by stephrich1 View Post

Just for clarification, let's say the 2nd floor is 1 zone, that would mean every room in that zone would listen to the same thing at the same volume? If so, I do not want that.

I want every room seperate, looking at my plan I'm counting 8 zones :

2nd floor: Master bdr&bathroom; 1bdr; 1bdr, Office(where is the laundry room on the plan) = 4 zones
1st floor : Living room&dining room& washroom, Kitchen, garage and patio(pool area) = 4 zones

Now looking at that, I will need the 7&8 zone in a system. so If I understand correctly, I could plug in my avr into one of the 7 or 8 zones and run the speaker wires from let's assume it will be the garage and outdoor to it and that would work? Meaning I would be able to listen to any input from everywhere separately? Not sure I get that part....

Another question that I have is: can a zone like living room&dining&washroom have each their own wall plate for controle like the volume or mute?

Well, what do you want separate - volume control only, or source as well? If you need separate sources, then yes each room would have to be its own zone. If just volume, then that can be easily implemented. I had similar needs, and the way I have it is that I have a volume control and a selector switch in each room. The selector switch can be used to select from the whole-house audio being streamed from the central location, or from a local input I have in the room (so it may be used as surround speakers or other local source in future). This works as a pseudo on-off switch too - if I set the switch to 'local' and I don't currently have local audio, whole-house is off.

I am also using same setup as above for master bedroom and bathroom. I just switch on the one I am using and the other off. As I would never listen to different sources in the bedroom vs bathroom, having them both part of one zone works fine for me.

Assuming all zones are run to a central location as well, the above setup provides all the flexibility - use each room as a separate zone / combine multiple rooms into one zone using impedance matching speaker selector switches / use speakers for local audio.
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post #18 of 22 Old 04-15-2013, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jautor View Post

Correct. A zone is what comes out of the amp - all speakers in the zone get the same thing, at the same volume. You *can* add a 2nd-level volume control to make a "sub-zone", but that's icky.
I also count 8, but would keep the master bed and bath separate. Someone in the bathroom while the other is (still) sleeping...
To keep to eight, I'd combine the living room and dining since they're open to each other anyway (plus the washroom, if you really want that).

(scratch that, you've got 9 zones as it stands. And you certainly don't want to combine the garage/patio, as you'll accidentally play stuff outside when you don't want to... )
AVR as a "zone amp" can work, but if it's remote from the zone, it'll have to be dedicated to the WHA source(s), otherwise you'd have the second volume control problem again. For the living room, for example, an AVR can be a fine choice, as you run the zone 7 fixed line output to any open source input on the AVR, and switch to it whenever you want to hear "the house music".

For locations like the patio or garage, where the equipment won't be "nearby", a cheap zone amp with auto-on/off sensing like the AudioSource AMP-100 at <$100 is a better choice.
Depends on the system, but NuVo gear allows for multiple keypads assigned to one zone, as well as a single keypad to control multiple zones.

Jeff

OK. I know I don't want any component in any room so I guess the only choice I have is to go with the HTD Lync 12 to cover every room independently

Jeff, have you heard anything about Nexus wha system?
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post #19 of 22 Old 04-15-2013, 06:17 PM
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OK. I know I don't want any component in any room so I guess the only choice I have is to go with the HTD Lync 12 to cover every room independently

Jeff, have you heard anything about Nexus wha system?

The Nexus has the advantage for retrofit in that it utilizes the speaker wire for the control signals and DC power for the keypads. I don't know what the pricing looks like in comparison, but functionality is similar to HTD. EDIT: Looking closer it appears some/all of the Nexus audio products can support metadata on the keypads, apparently from an iPod dock and an "Internet radio" module. No information on the latter, so not clear if it's a "product" yet... And the phantom control function is model-specific, I assume the non-phantom version is cheaper and/or more featured on the keypads.

For new construction where a cat5e wire can be easily added for the keypad (and should, so that you're not limited to one brand / technology anyway), unless their pricing is better than HTD, I don't see any distinct advantage for your situation...

Jeff

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I've sold and installed several Nexus Audio Systems and they work very well and are very reliable.
Very easy to program and use.

They are great to work with and and I have nothing but good things to say about them, which is hard to say about most AV manufacturers.

They make a phantom control system as well as a regular cat5e based control system as well. There is little difference in price between the two.
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I've sold and installed several Nexus Audio Systems and they work very well and are very reliable.

Any info on the "Internet Radio" module? Is it available?

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It's not on my price sheet.
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