Some Cable/Wire running advice please. - AVS Forum
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Home A/V Distribution > Some Cable/Wire running advice please.
mijotter's Avatar mijotter 02:29 AM 06-02-2013
Greetings, I'm at the electric/cable/wire stage and Just want to go over what all I'm going to need run here.

Will be having a 7.1 surround through a Onkyo 809 receiver to a Panny projector and Bluray player. From my limited understanding I will need an HDMI cable from the bluray to the receiver, and then an HDMI from the receiver to the projector is this correct and all I will need?

I opted not to put any of the speakers in the wall for soundproof reasons, it is my understanding that the speaker wire gets run through the walls/ceiling to where the speakers will be then they come through the drywall and in to the speaker from the receiver. Am I missing anything, do face plates need to be wherever the wire comes through the wall/ceiling?

Also I will be having a DVD/VCR combo as well. What cable(s) will need to be run from/to that and to where?

Thank you.

jautor's Avatar jautor 10:29 AM 06-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Greetings, I'm at the electric/cable/wire stage and Just want to go over what all I'm going to need run here.

Will be having a 7.1 surround through a Onkyo 809 receiver to a Panny projector and Bluray player. From my limited understanding I will need an HDMI cable from the bluray to the receiver, and then an HDMI from the receiver to the projector is this correct and all I will need?

I assume you're doing a single room theater, not a whole house project?

If the HDMI cable is more than 20', you'll want to get a good one (Redmere is a good option here). You should run at least two cat6/cat5e cables from your A/V stack to the projector as well, for potential future needs (IR repeating, Ethernet, HDMI-over-cat5, etc.). A flex conduit between the stack and the PJ would be the most prudent futureproofing...
Quote:
I opted not to put any of the speakers in the wall for soundproof reasons, it is my understanding that the speaker wire gets run through the walls/ceiling to where the speakers will be then they come through the drywall and in to the speaker from the receiver. Am I missing anything, do face plates need to be wherever the wire comes through the wall/ceiling?

No faceplates needed, and for wall-mounted speakers, the plates just become something else to try to hide. Arlington Industries has a nice set of plastic grommets that you can use to make a "clean" hole for the wires.
Quote:
Also I will be having a DVD/VCR combo as well. What cable(s) will need to be run from/to that and to where?

Hopefully your AVR has analog/SD upconversion to HDMI? Since you've got a BD player, the DVD player is really not needed, which then begs the question - when was the last time you put in a VHS tape? Unless you have unconverted home movies, you're really not going to want to project a VHS-quality image onto a big screen.

Jeff
mijotter's Avatar mijotter 12:10 AM 06-03-2013
Thanks for the reply Jeff.

You mentioned running 2 cat5e cables to the projector. The Panny ae8000 does not have ethernet inputs. It does however have 3 HMDI's.

So I will need 2 HDMI cables then correct? One to from the Bluray to the AVR and one from the AVR to the Projector.
ifor's Avatar ifor 01:08 AM 06-03-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Thanks for the reply Jeff.

You mentioned running 2 cat5e cables to the projector. The Panny ae8000 does not have ethernet inputs. It does however have 3 HMDI's.

So I will need 2 HDMI cables then correct? One to from the Bluray to the AVR and one from the AVR to the Projector.

Yes, you will need at least 2 hdmi cables from receiver to the projector and from any other sources. (ie. blu-ray, cablebox, sat receiver, apple tv, etc.)
Run at least 2 cat5e cables for control and/or using a hdmi balun if the length of the hdmi is not capable of what the system needs.

I also +1 what Jeff comments about the vcr.
Ask yourself when was the last time you used it. If the answer is longer than 2 months, then ditch it as the picture looks more horrible the bigger the screen gets.

The receiver is the connection center for all your equipment. Think of it as the hub. The only output will be to the speakers and the projector.
I wouldn't have worried about the sound leak issue when running wiring in the walls. It makes everything look much better than running them on the outside of the wall.
mijotter's Avatar mijotter 09:56 AM 06-03-2013
Now i'm really confused sorry. I was going to get this HDMI cable to run from the AVR to the Projector: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10255&cs_id=1025506&p_id=9430&seq=1&format=2

I'm still not understanding how or why I would need two cat5e cables. There are no inputs for cat5e on the projector itself so I would need some kind of adapter correct? And what exactly is the purpose of these cat5e cables if I have the nice HDMI cable running to it? Don't I just connect everything to the AVR and that One HDMI cable from the AVR to the Projector handles it all?

Also I have a lot of VCR's and enjoy them for the gritty original look and feel so I can still see myself watching them here and there so what would I need cable wise for that work?


I also will be controlling everything(hopefully) over iRule if that matters here.
AV_Integrated's Avatar AV_Integrated 10:14 AM 06-03-2013
The cat-6 cables, which you can buy pre-terminated from Monoprice, are to save you from cussing up a storm in 5 years.

About 10 years ago HDMI didn't exist, now it does... If you didn't run HDMI 10 years ago (because it didn't exist) then you would cut open your walls today to run a new HDMI cable.

So, what you want to think about is not what you simply need 'right now', but what you want to put into the wall, since it is incredibly easy to do right now, that will give you the best long term solution and cause you the fewest headaches in the future.

That's what the Cat-6 cable is for. There are dozens of uses for that cable, but one of the biggest is that should your HDMI cable fail or break, you can get conversion boxes to carry HDMI signal over the cat-6 cable without any problem. Moving forward, it is likely that we will see new formats that replace HDMI or enhance upon it further which makes the HDMI cable you install today obsolete in 3-7 years. Considering this, do you want to put something in place today which protects you for the future?

If the answer is no, then just run the one HDMI cable and pray. smile.gif

More likely the answer is yes, and the minimum cabling recommended to do this is that HDMI cable you are already running along with 2 pieces of cat-6 cabling.

If you really want to protect yourself, then run 1" flex-conduit as well, or even instead of, the cat-6 cables. That way, in 10 years if you need to get a new cable to the projector, you could just run it through an existing pathway.

But, whatever you do, you want to ensure that you are protected moving forward, and HDMI does not provide that protection, the cat-6 cables do.

Depending on the speakers you are using, you may choose to use wall plates or not - it is up to you. Wall-mounted speakers generally are wired directly into the speaker wire and that passes through the wall to the receiver. Floor standing speakers often use wallplates with 5-way binding posts on them to make that connection to the receiver. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to do this, but you want the wire run where you need the speakers, and you want plenty of slack on the cables at the receiver, OR you want to put a 7.1 set of connections on the wall at the receiver.

Oh, and if you insist upon the VCR and your receiver is the TX-NR809 then you just need to use composite (yellow) video and analog (red/white) audio RCA cables from the VCR to the receiver.
mijotter's Avatar mijotter 10:37 AM 06-03-2013
Wow Thanks to all of you guys I'm not in over my head haha. The 1" flex conduit sounds like a good idea for me right now. How easy would it be to run a thin flexible cable through it? The Cat cables probably pretty easy as they're more firm. Do I just cap the conduit on either end when it comes through the wall?
mijotter's Avatar mijotter 12:35 AM 06-04-2013
ifor's Avatar ifor 01:29 AM 06-04-2013
mijotter's Avatar mijotter 01:46 AM 06-04-2013
Was hoping to find something at my local store to pick up tomorrow rather than purchasing online...

Is this comparable: http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/rough-electrical/conduit/1-blue-ent-100-coil/p-1517769-c-6423.htm
ifor's Avatar ifor 02:24 AM 06-04-2013
Try Graybar.
Neurorad's Avatar Neurorad 04:49 AM 06-04-2013
Consider 1.5" conduit for future HDMI pulls. Use what you can find, don't sweat it.

Install current cables outside of the conduit, leave it empty; for future pulls.

The conduit ends above the ceiling, within easy reach of the PJ's cable wall plate (which will likely cover a single gang low voltage backless box).

See how others do their plates at PJs.

I don't know what your rack/closet looks like, to make suggestions about the conduit termination, but the conduit is often completely hidden behind drywall.
AV_Integrated's Avatar AV_Integrated 09:30 AM 06-04-2013

It is exactly what you need. Blue or orange flexible conduit with a minimum inner diameter of 1" is what you want. I would go to 1.25" or 1.5" if you can get it locally. But, that blue conduit, often referred to as 'Smurf tube', is made by Carlon in an orange color as well which is what I typically use. The difference between the two colors, as far as I know is just the color.

At the wall, I typically put in a single gang or double gang wall plate and tie off the conduit behind the wall instead of having it penetrate the wall. If you have a space where it can penetrate the wall and not look bad, then bring it into the room to a convenient point. That could be several feet or just a few inches depending on your setup, and it truly is up to you. Just remember that it is easy to cut of length, but tough to put it back on.
jautor's Avatar jautor 09:57 AM 06-04-2013
Carlon has single/double-gang LV brackets with attachment points for the flex conduit. I used them on my theater project and they make it very clean. My builder / LV contractor for the house just zip tied the ends to the LV bracket or left them hanging, which also works...

Jeff
mijotter's Avatar mijotter 03:44 PM 06-04-2013
Awesome guys thank you so much. Been looking around my area and cannot find anything over 1" of the smurf conduit. Or anything less than 100' of the 1" which is way more than I need. Was wondering, can I get a few 10' sections of it and use couplers to attach them? Or could I use PVC conduit as I could get up to 2" diameter of that stuff.

Also is this what I need for the wall plate the conduit would attach to? http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10425&cs_id=1042509&p_id=3997&seq=1&format=1#largeimage

I also wonder how this plate would do as far as soundproofing goes...Does anyone any tips for saving this flanking path from sound?
jautor's Avatar jautor 04:46 PM 06-04-2013
This is what I meant:



http://www-public.tnb.com/ps/fulltilt/index.cgi?part=SC100A

You use a screw coupler and a nut to secure the end of the conduit behind the wall. The wallplate is whatever you want - the scoop you linked to, or a keystone plate, or whatever... You can see these in action in my post here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1385501/jautors-rock-creek-theater-a-post-build-retrospective/30#post_21493676

Jeff
mijotter's Avatar mijotter 04:56 PM 06-04-2013
Oh ok thankfully my local menards carries all of this stuff. Getting a grocery list going now. Can that bracket be adjusted or placed in a double drywall...wall? Also, wonder if they make a "Y" coupler So I could run my other cat5e that will be coming from the left wall side through this one wall plate.
mijotter's Avatar mijotter 08:17 AM 06-05-2013
Alright So Menards had the 1" Smurf tube at 10' sections so I just got 3 of them and 2 couplers which seem to work real nice and make a snug fitting. However I ran in to a snag last night:

I'm soundclipping and doing furring channel for the ceiling which provides roughly 1 1/8" space between the drywall and the bottom of the ceiling joists. BUT I have 2 return air plenums running perpendicular to the ceiling joists from right to left for the room upstairs that I installed duct board in which is an 1" thick. So, those 2 ceiling joists are completely covered and also only allow an 1/8" between the drywall and duct board now. Which is no problem until trying to figure out where to run the 1" conduit.

I could run the conduit through the wall but there is a door on both walls. Wondering if I could run the conduit through the wall then up and around the doorway on the other side of the theater room then back back in the theater room and down to where I want it. What do you guys think. Not sure if having too many bends in this stuff will wreak havok when trying to pull cable through. Nevermind the old conduit in these pics as they are older and no longer there.



mijotter's Avatar mijotter 03:15 PM 06-05-2013
Any thoughts and advice anyone?
AV_Integrated's Avatar AV_Integrated 03:39 PM 06-05-2013
Generally you want the straightest run possible without any sharp bends in the conduit. I generally view ceiling joists as the thing to run stuff through - up the wall and across to the projector location. If you need to go outside the room, there is no problem with that, but be aware of the bend radius of whatever you end up doing so that the cable pull will be as smooth as possible. I would definitely go ahead and run some cat-6 cabling right now if you can just to have it in place. It costs very little and is easy enough to add while the walls are open.
mijotter's Avatar mijotter 05:23 PM 06-05-2013
Thanks AV. Yeah that's the only option I see is going outside the room and coming back in. I can make it so the turn radius is not too extreme though so that's a plus. Should I leave the conduit empty and run my cat6 and HDMI without a conduit back to the PJ?
jautor's Avatar jautor 06:31 PM 06-05-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Should I leave the conduit empty and run my cat6 and HDMI without a conduit back to the PJ?

Yes. The conduit is for the future...
ifor's Avatar ifor 07:46 PM 06-05-2013
Try Graybar, not Maynards.
mijotter's Avatar mijotter 03:48 PM 06-08-2013
Ok I had to drop the IB-1 clips 3/4" to get the furring channel under the duct board. I could run the 1" conduit under the duct board on top the drywall in the ceiling but it would be pressing against the duct board in some small areas pretty snug. Just wondering if 3/4" conduit could be used to avoid this. I think I would still be able to get HDMI and cat6 cables through the 3/4" What do you guys think?
AV_Integrated's Avatar AV_Integrated 09:47 PM 06-08-2013
The HDMI specification calls for a head on HDMI cables which are 7/8" thick, so by specification, they will not fit through a 3/4" conduit which is specifically why I recommend 1" conduit as the minimum.

Realistically, you never know what you really may end up running through the conduit, or how much of it, so you could go smaller if you would like to, but there is always some risk of not having enough room.
mijotter's Avatar mijotter 10:47 PM 06-08-2013
That's exactly what I needed to know thank you.
Neurorad's Avatar Neurorad 07:23 AM 06-09-2013
We don't know the size of future HDMI connectors. As jautor said, it's for future cables. Install it empty, run current cables outside of conduit.
ifor's Avatar ifor 03:08 PM 06-10-2013
Install 2 of those Monoprice Redmere hdmi cables while you're at it. They are cheap enough and the extra one is great to have just in case.
Also keep in mind that they are directional hdmi cables.

So...run 2 hdmi cables, 2 cat5e cables and a conduit to the projector location. Make sure you plane for romex or an outlet there as well.
mijotter's Avatar mijotter 03:35 PM 06-10-2013
Should all those cables go in a wall plate? I actually would rather do 1 hdmi and 1 cat6 so the hole can be minimal and caulk the hole and place a rubber housing over it to "cover" it a little.
mijotter's Avatar mijotter 09:22 PM 06-10-2013
Do they make something to make an this ENT outlet box http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/rough-electrical/junction-boxes/ent/ent-box-single-gang-1-2/p-1420180-c-6428.htm extend flush with 2 layers of drywall 1/14"?
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