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post #1 of 29 Old 05-17-2014, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I have come to the crossroads for my new home construction and my A/V sub has given me little help. Living in Idaho with few choices of A/V support has made this segment of a new build a pain-in-the-XXX. The sub does very good work, but his communication skills lack guidance. I am not a tech and I need some advice on the audio side before wiring starts, that's in three weeks. Everything home runs to the basement A/V room; HT, video (DirecTV Genie), internet, phone and audio. Electrical conduit 2" straight 12' run from A/V room to attic (future only use).

9.2 HT in the basement is completed except the choosing of a projector and screen. 3-12/2 to all front speakers (floor), 2-14/2 to rear (wall). RG6 to subs (floor). All exciting equipment. HDMI and CAT6 to projector with smurf tubing for the future. Future design to build stage with all

Video will be controlled with DirecTV genie (6 HDTV to include the HT) all RG6 and a CAT6 line (future). Simple, but the CAT6 allows future change if desired.

Internet and phone (who uses the phone these days) are CAT6.

Audio has 16/4 with 16/2 crossover for 6 zones (3 main and 3 basement). CAT6 from each speaker set home run to the A/V cabinet. Now the snag, how to control the system?? Only two person use of the system, both do not want high end cost or programming. It’s background music; wife likes HDTV video music and I like stored CD’s from the PS3. She would use an idock to play her stored music. We both agree that wall controls would work better for us than ipads and iphones. This way the volume control and select of music media is fast than finding the phones and working through the apps! I know it’s not forward thing, but at 65 it’s where we’re at.

The sub has recommended NUVO, but that’s iphone control through WiFi. Internet sinks in our area, we’re still rowing the boat! He recommended Sonos, isn’t this also WiFi??

So can I get some recommendation on my audio choices, its wiring and does my other A/V set look good moving forward?? This forum has taken me for not knowing how to spell A/V, to where I am today, not my sub!!

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post #2 of 29 Old 05-17-2014, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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If the sub is terminated for wiring, where would you recommend buying wire (Monoprice)?
Speaker wire is HT is no problem-12/2 L/C/R, 14/2 rear, audio 16/2 or 16/4, all < 100' runs.
There are different types of bulk CAT6; UTP Stranded, STP and Plenum solid?
HDMI for HT <50'; straight HDMI or with Ethernet and audio return?
RG6 (18awg) quad shield, both video and subs?

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post #3 of 29 Old 05-17-2014, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

The sub has recommended NUVO, but that’s iphone control through WiFi. Internet sinks in our area, we’re still rowing the boat! He recommended Sonos, isn’t this also WiFi??

WiFi is part of your home network - its performance has nothing to do with your Internet connection speed. You could be completely disconnected from the Internet and the system would still work 100%. In your previous threads folks mentioned that if your Internet service is poor, you might not be able to enjoy the Internet-based music service (Pandora, Internet Radio, etc.). But that has nothing to do with your music library stored somewhere on your own network. You can use that without any connection to the outside world...

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post #4 of 29 Old 05-17-2014, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

If the sub is terminated for wiring, where would you recommend buying wire (Monoprice)?
Speaker wire is HT is no problem-12/2 L/C/R, 14/2 rear, audio 16/2 or 16/4, all < 100' runs.
There are different types of bulk CAT6; UTP Stranded, STP and Plenum solid?
HDMI for HT <50'; straight HDMI or with Ethernet and audio return?
RG6 (18awg) quad shield, both video and subs?

Solid cat6 - do not use stranded, and you don't need shielded or plenum-rated.

Any HDMI runs over 20-25' should have cat6 runs in parallel in case the HDMI solution becomes problematic. The Redmere (Monoprice) active cables are a good choice for longer runs (20-50'), but they won't have the Ethernet or ARC functionality. For a projector setup you won't need ARC, and Ethernet is easily accomplished with the cat6 cable instead.

Quad Shield RG6 is overkill, any RG6 is fine (solid copper better than copper-clad, but even that probably not a big deal). For subwoofer runs RG59 is actually better, but again, probably not enough to worry about.

Jeff

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post #5 of 29 Old 05-17-2014, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Jautor, thank you for the feedback. It's looking more and more that I'm going to wire myself.
CAT6 UTP Solid cable.
HDMI is run with a CAT6 for backup. Should I run another CAT6 for internet to the projector?
RG6 solid copper or RG59 better.

I understand the WiFi communication between units. I meant it to say my internet connect is poor, thus any streaming is out of the question for now.

I read your feedback on a NUVO system, good system but no wall controls at this time. The sub recommended 2-NVP3100, 1-main (3 rooms zones) and 1-basement (3-room zones). MY issue it's all controlled by you phone or pad. You then need to walk around with a phone or pad??

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post #6 of 29 Old 05-17-2014, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

HDMI is run with a CAT6 for backup. Should I run another CAT6 for internet to the projector?

I would run 2 or 3 cat6 to the projector location. Dirt cheap to do now. And a flex conduit to truly get future-proofed...
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RG6 solid copper or RG59 better.

Solid copper RG6 for everything. If you want to make an exception for the subwoofer runs, use RG59 there - ONLY.
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I read your feedback on a NUVO system, good system but no wall controls at this time. The sub recommended 2-NVP3100, 1-main (3 rooms zones) and 1-basement (3-room zones). MY issue it's all controlled by you phone or pad. You then need to walk around with a phone or pad??

If you buy some super-cheap Android tablets (nothing special needed for the control app) with either a wall-mount or a charging dock for each room, you can gain the in-room control support without having to carry your actual phone around...

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post #7 of 29 Old 05-17-2014, 11:41 PM
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You do realize that when they suggest 'solid copper' RG6 they mean the center conductor only? Copper braid doesn't provide enough shielding for most RF applications. Personally I'd use copper clad steel for RF, just like every cable system on earth does...
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post #8 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
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If you buy some super-cheap Android tablets (nothing special needed for the control app) with either a wall-mount or a charging dock for each room, you can gain the in-room control support without having to carry your actual phone around...

Based on my needs you like the NUVO audio distribution system, it just doesn't have wall controls for added flexibility?

What is the difference when they say wireless and wired? I understand wireless means no hard wires from the P3100, but wired means CAT6 from Essentia to where? Does both systems require CAT6 from each speaker pair (zone) back to base unit?

Does Essentia unit or P3100 allow independent zone control of input like the Concerto unit?

The sub said that Sonos does not allow independent zone control (different sources different rooms), but NUVO does?

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post #9 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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You'll need an analog audio line from wherever the TV (or, more likely, your set-top box) is to the WHA unit. A cat5e wire with a MuxLab audio balun can help with that. If you're centralizing or distributing video, this is simple. In my setup, the analog audio from each of my DirecTV receivers is also connected to the WHA system...

Jautor, read this on another thread about NUVO that you answered. If I'm using DirecTV Genie with mini's, how would this work with NUVO P3100 or Essentia/Concerto to play through ceiling speakers?

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post #10 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

You do realize that when they suggest 'solid copper' RG6 they mean the center conductor only? Copper braid doesn't provide enough shielding for most RF applications. Personally I'd use copper clad steel for RF, just like every cable system on earth does...

Yeah, I should have been more specific... I didn't mention CCS just to avoid introducing yet another thing...

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post #11 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

Based on my needs you like the NUVO audio distribution system, it just doesn't have wall controls for added flexibility?

Correct.
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What is the difference when they say wireless and wired? I understand wireless means no hard wires from the P3100, but wired means CAT6 from Essentia to where?

The "wireless" systems use networking to join the zones together - there's no requirement to home run everything to one central point - which is required for the centralized, traditional "wired" systems (Essentia, etc.). This is a distinction that is important for retrofits - for new construction pre-wiring, it's not important as you can use either type of system. You'd simply pile up enough of the "wireless" zone players at the same centralized location you would place one of the wired systems.
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Does both systems require CAT6 from each speaker pair (zone) back to base unit?

The wired systems use that link for keypad support. Most of the "wireless" (zone player) systems do not offer that support - yet. I would absolutely run those wires regardless.
Quote:
Does Essentia unit or P3100 allow independent zone control of input like the Concerto unit?

The sub said that Sonos does not allow independent zone control (different sources different rooms), but NUVO does?

All of these systems provide independent zone control. For the wireless systems (Sonos Connect:Amp or NuVo Player / P3100) - you just buy one player for each zone. Your installer might have assumed you were talking about using a Sonos un-powered unit (Connect) as a source - not a system...
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Jautor, read this on another thread about NUVO that you answered. If I'm using DirecTV Genie with mini's, how would this work with NUVO P3100 or Essentia/Concerto to play through ceiling speakers?

To play TV audio throughout the house you just need to connect the analog audio output from the DirecTV receiver to the system - as a source.

Note that this is NOT a good solution for using speakers with the TV in the same room - the audio and video will not be in sync. But it works great for "broadcasting" TV audio to other rooms. I use this for listening to the news during the morning routine...

Jeff

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post #12 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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If you choose the p3100, what other NUVO equipment is needed?

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post #13 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Regardless of the choice, your recommendation is to wire.
1. cat6 from each speaker set home run
2. cat6 from speaker set to wall pad/control
3. cat6 from wall pad/control home run
Is this correct? Regardless of p3100 or essentia? Allows future anything?

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post #14 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

Regardless of the choice, your recommendation is to wire.
1. cat6 from each speaker set home run
2. cat6 from speaker set to wall pad/control
3. cat6 from wall pad/control home run
Is this correct? Regardless of p3100 or essentia? Allows future anything?

No - you need speaker wire to the speakers - not cat6.

16/2 speaker wire from Speakers to keypad
16/4 speaker wire from keypad to home run
cat6 from keypad to home run

And yes, that wiring will allow you to use any of the systems on the market.

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post #15 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Mess that up, I'll try again!
16/4 from speaker home run with 12/2 crossover?
16/2 from each speaker to key pad or just the 16/4?
16/4 from keypad home run?
Is that correct?
Why 16/4 from pad?

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post #16 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

Mess that up, I'll try again!
16/4 from speaker home run with 12/2 crossover?

Crossover? confused.gif
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16/2 from each speaker to key pad or just the 16/4?
16/4 from keypad home run?
Is that correct?
Why 16/4 from pad?

Each speaker needs two conductors. So you need a two-conductor wire from the volume control / keypad location to each speaker.

From the volume control / keypad location back to the central closet (home run) - you can either continue those two, 2-conductor cables, or splice them both to a single, 4-conductor cables.

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post #17 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Today is not my day, typo 12/2. I see you do not like a crossover on the speaker, got it. Try this again, maybe I'll get it right!
16/2 from keypad to each speaker.
16/4 or 2-16/2 home run.

1. There is no cat6 anywhere? Or cat6 from keypad home run?
2. I thought you had to run speaker wire from the speaker to home run and the keypad. So the audio signal runs though the keypad first, then to the speakers?

Thank you for taking the time to slowly try to clear the fog away, I know it must be frustrating.

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post #18 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 07:36 PM
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Today is not my day, typo 12/2. I see you do not like a crossover on the speaker, got it.

More like - I don't know what you mean by "crossover" at the keypad location...
Quote:
1. There is no cat6 anywhere? Or cat6 from keypad home run?

YES - 3rd time's the charm... Cat6 from each keypad location to home run.
Quote:
2. I thought you had to run speaker wire from the speaker to home run and the keypad. So the audio signal runs though the keypad first, then to the speakers?

If you use a centralized amplifier, you simply splice those wires together in the keypad box. Systems with digital in-wall amplifiers, or simple volume controls would one or both of those wires...

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post #19 of 29 Old 05-19-2014, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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More like - I don't know what you mean by "crossover" at the keypad location...

I was referring to the crossover at the speaker location. Running "1" 16/4 wire to one speaker from the A/V cab and then running "1" 16/2 to the other speaker (crossover). I did not know that you run speaker wire to the keypad/control from the a/v cab and then to the speaker. I thought it was only cat6 to the keypad from a/v cab and then to one speaker, not both speaker wire and cat6. The typo was 16/2 vice 12/2. Again, thank you for assisting with my education. And yes, I wish I could get the same feedback from my a/v sub.

So, either the p3100 or essential for future thinking: wired or wireless
16/4 from a/v cab to keypad/control, 16/2 to each speaker.
Cat6 from a/v cab to keypad/control, cat6 to each speaker.
Is that correct and that is what's required for each of the 6 zones?

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post #20 of 29 Old 05-19-2014, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

So, either the p3100 or essential for future thinking: wired or wireless
16/4 from a/v cab to keypad/control, 16/2 to each speaker.
Cat6 from a/v cab to keypad/control, cat6 to each speaker.
Is that correct and that is what's required for each of the 6 zones?

Yes, except you don't need cat6 to each speaker (see above)...
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I was referring to the crossover at the speaker location. Running "1" 16/4 wire to one speaker from the A/V cab and then running "1" 16/2 to the other speaker (crossover).

Ah - the correct term for that is "splice". Crossover has other meanings in audio and speaker terminology.

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post #21 of 29 Old 05-19-2014, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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So, I final got it almost correct. Thank you for leading me through the fog. Also the term splice.

If two sets of speakers (Rec room & Gym) are used in one zone, how are they wired?
16/4 & cat6 to keypad from a/v cab, 16/2 to each speaker?? Did I do it correctly? What needs to be done for impedance or what ever the issue is?

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post #22 of 29 Old 05-19-2014, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

If two sets of speakers (Rec room & Gym) are used in one zone, how are they wired?

I would home run both pairs (loop both through the volume control location) and deal with any impedance-matching, if needed, back at the system location.
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16/4 & cat6 to keypad from a/v cab, 16/2 to each speaker?? Did I do it correctly? What needs to be done for impedance or what ever the issue is?

That's correct. Impedance matching will come into play if you attach more than one speaker to an amplifier channel directly - without going through a speaker selector. When multiple speaker are connected in parallel, the electrical resistance (impedance) is lowered and must be "matched" to the range allowed by the amplifier's design. Operating the amp outside of its rated range can damage it and will cause issues regardless.

Sonos Connect:Amp units are "4-ohm stable", which means two 8-ohm speakers can safely be connected in parallel. That is not the case with many other designs, which is where the speaker selectors come into play. Note that "multi-channel" amps or WHA systems contain multiple amp channels - so you're only usually connecting one speaker to each...

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post #23 of 29 Old 05-19-2014, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I read a question you answered about the same and you recommended a impedance control unit from Monoprice.

So with the p3100 or essential is there a problem? I have 2, 2-set speaker zones,

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post #24 of 29 Old 05-19-2014, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Since I'm using DirecTV Genie and it's mini's, what do you know about the wireless mini's with the Video Bridge? Only need an HDMI cable to TV and power.

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post #25 of 29 Old 05-19-2014, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

I read a question you answered about the same and you recommended a impedance control unit from Monoprice.

So with the p3100 or essential is there a problem? I have 2, 2-set speaker zones,

If you want to attach MORE than one pair of speakers to any single zone on the NuVo units (P3100 or Essentia - any of them), you will need an impedance-matching speaker selector, as those units are NOT 4-ohm stable.

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post #26 of 29 Old 05-19-2014, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

Since I'm using DirecTV Genie and it's mini's, what do you know about the wireless mini's with the Video Bridge? Only need an HDMI cable to TV and power.

Since you're pre-wiring - get everything wired correctly. You don't want to deal with wireless solutions if you can at all avoid it.

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post #27 of 29 Old 05-20-2014, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the feedback on both question. As to the impedance-matching speaker selector, I'm just verifying the need for the unit with my system. I've learned from the speaker wire question-answer to verify what I think you said! The DirecTV Genie-Mini question had nothing to do with not wiring as I intend to do. It was a question based on WiFi technology and the future of wireless everything, this is an example of moving forward. I was asking your opinion/knowledge of DirecTV's technology in their mini.

Running the RG6 for video, why is the cat6 run with it? Is it alternative control if DirecTV system is not used and another choice of video distribution is used ?

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post #28 of 29 Old 05-20-2014, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

The DirecTV Genie-Mini question had nothing to do with not wiring as I intend to do. It was a question based on WiFi technology and the future of wireless everything, this is an example of moving forward. I was asking your opinion/knowledge of DirecTV's technology in their mini.

Haven't played with it but my answer is the same for all the wireless products - wired versions will always be easier to set up and more reliable. So if you have the choice, run the wires.
Quote:
Running the RG6 for video, why is the cat6 run with it? Is it alternative control if DirecTV system is not used and another choice of video distribution is used ?

Yes, and also for all the other potential uses and networked devices that need that connection - Smart TV and game consoles being the most likely devices...

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post #29 of 29 Old 05-20-2014, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Projected Wiring Format
All wiring home run to mechanical room with a/v cabinet
9.2 HT: 12/2 (3) L/C/R plus future 11.2 (2), RG59 subs (2), 14/2 side/rea speakers (6), HDMI (1) & Cat6 (1-backup, 1-internet), smurf tubing
Video DirecTV Genie & Mini’s: RG6 & cat6
Audio NUVO: 16/4 & cat6 to keypad, 16/2 to speakers
Internet/phone: cat6

How does this look??

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