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post #1 of 49 Old 09-01-2014, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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HDMI over Ethernet and POE with same cable

Hi,
I am working on a project and was hoping for some input. I will have a pc NVR in the basement of a home. I want to display the video feed of the cameras full time on 3 small displays throught the house. I have ruled out tablets, wireless etc...I dont want any interaction with the displays, i just want a reliable solid system.
I was thinking id use a few of these 10.1 in displays, http://www.adafruit.com/products/1287 and run HDMI over Ethernet to them. My question is can I run hdmi over ethernet and POE over the same cat6 cable? What pairs are used for hdmi over ethernet?
Second as far as powering the screen, the specs say anything from 5v through 12v...does it matter which I use? I was planing on using one of these kits from http://wifiqos.com/ in the section title USB, 5 volt and 12 volt Splitters, but not sure if i should use 5v or 12v?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
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post #2 of 49 Old 09-01-2014, 09:09 AM
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Is your cable already run. Why not run one CAT5 for Poe and one CAT6 for HDMIbaseT?
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post #3 of 49 Old 09-01-2014, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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It is not run yet...that is what i will do...was just curious if it can be done on a single cable...
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post #4 of 49 Old 09-01-2014, 01:53 PM
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Even if it has and there is one mfr then you have a single point of failure.
Run a couple of cable they are cheap.
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post #5 of 49 Old 09-01-2014, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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ok, what about for power, should i use 5v or 12v if the spec allows for anything in between? does it matter?
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post #6 of 49 Old 09-01-2014, 05:37 PM
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Higher voltage means lower current so less heat in the wire.

At 24v 1a is 24w of power.
At 12v 24w is 2a.
Higher low voltage is better.
It's the reason home power in the rest of the world is 240v. The 15-20a circuit here is a 32a breaker.
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post #7 of 49 Old 09-02-2014, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post
Higher voltage means lower current so less heat in the wire.

Higher low voltage is better.

The 15-20a circuit here is a 32a breaker.
Heat is caused by power being dissipated in the wire. More power, more heat. Current is only one part of the power equation.

"Higher low voltage is better" - OK what does that mean???

"The 15-20a circuit here is a 32a breaker" - what???

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #8 of 49 Old 09-02-2014, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post
Heat is caused by power being dissipated in the wire. More power, more heat. Current is only one part of the power equation.

"Higher low voltage is better" - OK what does that mean???

"The 15-20a circuit here is a 32a breaker" - what???
You have a 10w led. Fed at 5v, 12v or 24v. What is the current pulled at each voltage.

Lower voltage higher current.

Higher current. Higher heat.

're the 240/110. In the same 2.5mm/12AWG cable you can load 32A in 240v world and 20A in110v world.
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post #9 of 49 Old 09-02-2014, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post
You have a 10w led. Fed at 5v, 12v or 24v. What is the current pulled at each voltage.

Lower voltage higher current

Higher current. Higher heat

're the 240/110. In the same 2.5mm/12AWG cable you can load 32A in 240v world and 20A in110v world.
For a given load, lower voltage results in lower current.

Higher current does not necessary result in higher heat - as I said it is power being dissipated that causes the heat.

If it is true that a 12AWG cable in 240v countries allows for a 32A breaker it has nothing to do with the voltage - it has to do with local electrical codes.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #10 of 49 Old 09-02-2014, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post
For a given load, lower voltage results in lower current.

Higher current does not necessary result in higher heat - as I said it is power being dissipated that causes the heat.

If it is true that a 12AWG cable in 240v countries allows for a 32A breaker it has nothing to do with the voltage - it has to do with local electrical codes.
This is a rewrite of Ohms law I missed?

http://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/Ohms-Law/

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post #11 of 49 Old 09-02-2014, 07:56 PM
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No it is not a rewrite.

1. A "10W" LED is not going to consume 10W of power regardless of the voltage applied.

Any LED is going to have a specified forward voltage drop and a suggested operating current (or range of current). So you pick a current you want it to operate at and compute the value of resistor required for a given power supply voltage to obtain the desired current.

Let's make up some numbers. Forward Voltage Drop = 2V. Recommended Current = 100ma.

Required resistor for 24V supply = 220 ohms.

Drop the voltage to 12V and the current will drop to appx 45ma.

Drop the voltage to 5V and the current will drop to appx 13ma.

So, no, lower voltage does not result in higher current.


2. It is just is an over simplification to say that "more current causes more heat". To say it again, the heat produced is proportional to the power dissipated.

So if you double the current but double the cross section of the wire (assuming the same material, etc) the heat produced will not change because the power dissipated has not changed.

An extreme case applies to superconductors which have no resistance and thus dissipate no power - therefore no heat.


3. To allow a circuit to operate with a 32A breaker instead of a 20A breaker requires you to allow the wire (of the same gauge, material, etc) to dissipate more power and thus generate more heat. This is true for a 120V, 240V or a 440V circuit. Thus it must be a difference in the local electrical code that allows the 32A breaker.


The "advantage" of higher voltage is that you can obtain more power with the same current OR you can obtain the same power with less current.

And you can also be electrocuted more easily.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #12 of 49 Old 09-02-2014, 08:32 PM
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So getting back to the OP. That is 12v not 5v then?
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post #13 of 49 Old 09-02-2014, 08:43 PM
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I would suggest the 12V option.

You see from the panel specs that with a 5V supply the panel is going to draw appx 980ma.

With a 12V supply the panel is going to draw appx 380ma.

So for a given gauge of wire and a given length you will experience less voltage drop, over the length of the cable, with the 12V panel.

Or for a given gauge of wire and a given voltage drop you can use a longer length of cable.


The comment about the "advantage" of higher voltage comes into play here - the same power with less current.
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Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #14 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 04:05 AM
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What I said in post 6
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post #15 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post
What I said in post 6
Well, sorta.

The real concern in a case like this is not heat but voltage loss over the cable run.

I don't see any detailed specs on that display unit other then the current draw at 12V.

Of course any device is going to have a nominal working voltage but it is also going to tolerate a certain variance in that voltage.

So let's say this unit is 12V +/- 1V (just to use simple numbers).

If your power supply puts out exactly 12V you need to insure that the voltage loss over the cable run is less than 1V.

The 12V option for the display uses the least current and thus you will have the least voltage loss over a given run of cable, thus making it easier to insure adequate voltage at the display.


But I still don't understand your remark in Post #2 "Higher low voltage is better".

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #16 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post
But I still don't understand your remark in Post #2 "Higher low voltage is better".
If you are looking at running a class 2 - low voltage load. Then running it at a higher voltage lower current is better than a lower voltage higher current specification. Eg. The same device with a 6-48v input would present.
48v 0.25a
24v 0.5a
12v 1a
6v 2a

My LED Tape is 24v for this reason.
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post #17 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post
If you are looking at running a class 2 - low voltage load. Then running it at a higher voltage lower current is better than a lower voltage higher current specification. Eg. The same device with a 6-48v input would present.
48v 0.25a
24v 0.5a
12v 1a
6v 2a

My LED Tape is 24v for this reason.
I don't disagree that higher has advantages but in this case how are you defining "better"?

You do know that your 24V LED tape will draw less current if you ran it on 6V - right?

Your "chart" above does depict four different combinations of V and I that yield the same P - but you do know that you cannot simply pick the supply voltage of choice - right? That applying 48V to a 6V LED tape is not going to yield lower current but a burnt out piece of tape - right?

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #18 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 07:39 AM
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You do know that your 24V LED tape will draw less current if you ran it on 6V - right?
It probably won't even light up at 6V. A white LED strip rated 24V most likely has 6 LEDs in series for a total Vf of 21.6V. It won't light up at 6 or even 12V.

You do realise that these days most devices use switched mode power supplies, so input voltage, within a range, is mostly irrelevant.
the higher the voltage, the lower the current, as stated.
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post #19 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post
It probably won't even light up at 6V. A white LED strip rated 24V most likely has 6 LEDs in series for a total Vf of 21.6V. It won't light up at 6 or even 12V.
Like I said it will draw less current - none.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post
You do realise that these days most devices use switched mode power supplies, so input voltage, within a range, is mostly irrelevant.
the higher the voltage, the lower the current, as stated.
Certainly many devices do have such power supplies and they do accept a wide range of input voltages.

And, of course, lots of "devices", like LED strips, have a limited range of acceptable input voltages.

I just don't want folks to get the idea that you can just blindly use a higher voltage power source to achieve lower current.

I would like them to understand the whole picture.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #20 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Like I said it will draw less current - none.
You said less, not none...you're thinking it's a linear device.

Quote:
Certainly many devices do have such power supplies and they do accept a wide range of input voltages.
Yes, I mentioned that.

Quote:
And, of course, lots of "devices", like LED strips, have a limited range of acceptable input voltages.
Not generally, LED strips typically operate with 20mA forward current, resulting in a fixed supply voltage, not a range. These are not linear device as you're implying.

Quote:
I would like them to understand the whole picture.
...then don't make misleading statements like the following:

Quote:
For a given load, lower voltage results in lower current.
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post #21 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post
I don't disagree that higher has advantages but in this case how are you defining "better"?

You do know that your 24V LED tape will draw less current if you ran it on 6V - right?

Your "chart" above does depict four different combinations of V and I that yield the same P - but you do know that you cannot simply pick the supply voltage of choice - right? That applying 48V to a 6V LED tape is not going to yield lower current but a burnt out piece of tape - right?
Yes I do know that. I quoted 48v as it is PoE standard.

My DMX drivers and ARTnet module all accept a range of 9 to 24 in. The DMX drivers are limited to 1A per channel. I can light more LED at 24V than 12V.

The ARTnet driver takes 1A at 9V. At 24V the same device is pulling less current.

What's your point. You need to read and match input and output voltages. We'll duh.
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post #22 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post
You said less, not none
I consider none less then some - dont' you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post
Not generally, LED strips typically operate with 20mA forward current, resulting in a fixed supply voltage, not a range.
Yes I know that but they will operate over a range - consider...

https://www.superbrightleds.com/more...-nfls-x3/1465/

...notice the specified operating voltage range - 9V to 14.8V.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post
...then don't make misleading statements like the following:
How is that misleading?

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt

Last edited by fcwilt; 09-03-2014 at 09:27 AM.
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post #23 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 09:25 AM
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How is that misleading?
It's only true if the given load is a resistor, but the subject is a device with a switched mode power supply, so your statement is actually wrong.
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post #24 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post
It's only true if the given load is a resistor, but the subject is a device with a switched mode power supply, so your statement is actually wrong.
Yes I suppose you could interpret "given load" to include variable loads.

Perhaps I should have said fixed load or simply resistive load but the statement is true for many non-linear loads as well.

And we were discussing an LED load at the time.

I will endeavor to be more precise in the future and take into account all possibilities other then just the ones being discussed.

Thanks for the clarification.


Now about those LED strips and their power requirements...

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #25 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks...It got a bit heated there but bottom like is that i should use 12v. Im going to use a "WS-POE-12v-Kits kits for up to 12 cameras" from here http://wifiqos.com/
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post #26 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by fenderman2 View Post
Thanks...It got a bit heated there but bottom like is that i should use 12v. Im going to use a "WS-POE-12v-Kits kits for up to 12 cameras" from here http://wifiqos.com/
Weren't you wanting to use some form of HDMI over Ethernet?

If I'm reading it correctly those POE devices you referenced are assuming that there are 2 free pairs in the Ethernet cable.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #27 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post
Weren't you wanting to use some form of HDMI over Ethernet?

If I'm reading it correctly those POE devices you referenced are assuming that there are 2 free pairs in the Ethernet cable.
Which is why the OP understands he or she needs to run two cables one for power and data the other for video.
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post #28 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post
Which is why the OP understands he or she needs to run two cables one for power and data the other for video.
What data?

The only thing I see him mention is video from the cameras.

If he doesn't need Ethernet and he is prepared to run a separate cable for power why go the POE route? No point spending money on injectors/extractors if no Ethernet requirement.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #29 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 03:09 PM
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The HDMI data.
Yes. No point PoEing if the device is not set up by default to take PoE.
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post #30 of 49 Old 09-03-2014, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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There will be one cable for the hdmi over ethernet. Then another to get 12 volts to the unit for power. If i have to run cable there power i may as well run Ethernet for possible future application. It is much easier to just run two ethernet cables at the same time. I prefer using this passive poe with adapters instead of splicing wires and making sure there is enough power after a long cable run. It is easier and cleaner for me.
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