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post #1 of 16 Old 09-05-2017, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Just Add Power Install

Hello everyone. I frequented these boards about 11 years ago when putting in my first system and the time has come to make a change.

We originally went with a Crestron system as it was the most 'bullet proof' at the time. HDMI wasn't standardized enough so we went with a component video matrix to distribute video throughout the house.

11 years later, we're starting to have issues with units in the rack failing (we already lost a power supply, amp and tuner). I'm concerned that we're on borrowed time with this system and am thinking this might be a good time to step up to 4K finally.

Basics of our system: 6-7 sources (3 DTV boxes, Atv, Roku, HDDVD player and maybe one or two other items including the possibility of adding a QNAP drive for movie storage). We have 7 TVs and 10 audio zones.

I'm looking to move into Control4 as the cost is much lower - especially the programming - and having used our current system for 10+ years, we know what we want and how we use the system and C4 looks to be a great option since we have done no customization in all the years we've been using Crestron. As time goes on, we'll look at adding different controls and systems (security and cameras) into the C4 environment but mostly looking at the distributed A/V at this point.

One of the products that has intrigued me most is the Just Add Power (J+P) video distribution system. I understand we'll need a robust network installed at the same time and I know the cost is likely to be a bit higher than a traditional video matrix but I like a few things about J+P based on our usage of our system now and based on my research:
1. We can mix 4k and 1080/720 TVs while watching the same source simultaneously. I have some small TVs in bathrooms and the kitchen that aren't made with 4k capability (unless stepping wayyyyy up in price and we don't need 4k in those areas anyway).
2. It's modular so as we add sources and TVs in new zones (finish our basement, patio setup, guest rooms, etc) we won't need to upgrade to a new, expensive matrix.
3. J+P seems to perform firmware upgrades to support their product so while the system won't be able to do the latest and greatest forever, it seems like some of the upcoming standards might be covered better with J+P vs. a fixed matrix system.
4. J+P allows downscaling on the video and the audio. So if I'm watching a 4k movie in the family room with an AVR and HDDVD, I can watch the same movie,at the same time, in another room with only stereo speakers and either 4k or 1080/720 resolution.

If anyone has any thoughts on the above I'd love to hear them.

So I'm pretty sold on these features of J+P. I had a few questions for the gurus on this board and was hoping to get some feedback to either validate this decision, make me feel better or change my mind.

1. I am a bit concerned about the proprietary compression that J+P uses. They are taking a lot of data and compressing it pretty heavily to get it to fit through CAT5e/CAT6. Would anyone be able to comment on the quality of the video for things like HDR and 4k?
2. Also concerned about the scaling for 720p/1080i/P to 4k. I saw a nice TV that I was very interested in but the picture for DirecTV sports was very bad and I couldn't adjust my way out of it. Some of the other, much cheaper, TVs did look better but was just wondering if the J+P system would help or potentially hurt this upscaling.
3. Cost - I 'think' that the J+P will end up being just a few thousand dollars more than an 8x8 matrix for my setup but I also need to put a transmitter and receiver in to take A/V from a family room HDDVD to the central rack system so we can share that source. Do I have to worry about audio syncing with this process? I'm also considering putting an HDDVD in the master bedroom as another source so now I'm looking at 2 additional sets of transmitters and receivers and they don't come cheap
4. My other thought was just to stick with 1080 around the house and do a much cheaper matrix for now. Set up the main TV with 4k and a direct connection to the HDDVD player and AVR and not share that source with the rest of the house. If I did this, it would start the C4 conversion process at a much less expensive starting price and then we could look at modular additions of J+P at a later date.
5. I don't know what I don't know right now. My installer has experience with J+P and fairly large commercial and residential installs but when I asked some specific questions about mixing and matching the 4k and 1080 TVs he wasn't sure since all of the systems they have installed were on 4k for all TVs. This wasn't the programmer though. It looks like this is a heavily advertised benefit of the J+P system but I'm not sure what other questions to ask or things to look for.

Thank you in advance for any thoughts or ideas you may want to share - they are much appreciated!! I see lots of smart and experienced folks on the board and I'm hoping to learn from you!
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post #2 of 16 Old 09-05-2017, 07:03 AM
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I don't know about J+P, but my cheap monoprice hdbt matrix switch has configurable EDID. This means that the matrix is responsible for telling the end device what the source is playing... not the source itself. With this setup, you can configure the EDID on the output to your lower resolution TVs to limit to 1080p, and set your 4K TV to output full 4K. I recently had to mess around with EDID on my switch to get the setup I wanted so I know this works.

As for HDR, only the most expensive matrix switches support that, and they will utilize compression. In my opinion, unless you have a lot of money to burn, i'd wait for the technology to mature before going with something that advanced. You'd end up spending a lot of money and still be required to compromise on a compressed/lossy version of HDR.

Regular 4K, on the other-hand, will be fine. Any decent 4K matrix switch can pump out 4K60Hz @ 8-bit 4:2:0 without any compression. Good for any non-HDR video signal.

So that's my non-professional 2 cents. HDR over HDBT is still an expensive novelty. But even affordable hdbt matrix switches like the blackbird 4x4 support full 4K with configurable EDID. I personally know nothing about hd over IP, but seems to be pretty comparable to HDBT in terms of feature-set
edit: did a bit of research on J+P and it looks like it has built-in scalers that auto downscale the video to 1080p as needed. Personally though, don't see any reason to use hd over IP vs HDBT, unless all of your equipment is not centralized.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaykAVS View Post
Hello everyone. I frequented these boards about 11 years ago when putting in my first system and the time has come to make a change.

We originally went with a Crestron system as it was the most 'bullet proof' at the time. HDMI wasn't standardized enough so we went with a component video matrix to distribute video throughout the house.

11 years later, we're starting to have issues with units in the rack failing (we already lost a power supply, amp and tuner). I'm concerned that we're on borrowed time with this system and am thinking this might be a good time to step up to 4K finally.

Basics of our system: 6-7 sources (3 DTV boxes, Atv, Roku, HDDVD player and maybe one or two other items including the possibility of adding a QNAP drive for movie storage). We have 7 TVs and 10 audio zones.

I'm looking to move into Control4 as the cost is much lower - especially the programming - and having used our current system for 10+ years, we know what we want and how we use the system and C4 looks to be a great option since we have done no customization in all the years we've been using Crestron. As time goes on, we'll look at adding different controls and systems (security and cameras) into the C4 environment but mostly looking at the distributed A/V at this point.

One of the products that has intrigued me most is the Just Add Power (J+P) video distribution system. I understand we'll need a robust network installed at the same time and I know the cost is likely to be a bit higher than a traditional video matrix but I like a few things about J+P based on our usage of our system now and based on my research:
1. We can mix 4k and 1080/720 TVs while watching the same source simultaneously. I have some small TVs in bathrooms and the kitchen that aren't made with 4k capability (unless stepping wayyyyy up in price and we don't need 4k in those areas anyway).
2. It's modular so as we add sources and TVs in new zones (finish our basement, patio setup, guest rooms, etc) we won't need to upgrade to a new, expensive matrix.
3. J+P seems to perform firmware upgrades to support their product so while the system won't be able to do the latest and greatest forever, it seems like some of the upcoming standards might be covered better with J+P vs. a fixed matrix system.
4. J+P allows downscaling on the video and the audio. So if I'm watching a 4k movie in the family room with an AVR and HDDVD, I can watch the same movie,at the same time, in another room with only stereo speakers and either 4k or 1080/720 resolution.

If anyone has any thoughts on the above I'd love to hear them.

So I'm pretty sold on these features of J+P. I had a few questions for the gurus on this board and was hoping to get some feedback to either validate this decision, make me feel better or change my mind.

1. I am a bit concerned about the proprietary compression that J+P uses. They are taking a lot of data and compressing it pretty heavily to get it to fit through CAT5e/CAT6. Would anyone be able to comment on the quality of the video for things like HDR and 4k?
2. Also concerned about the scaling for 720p/1080i/P to 4k. I saw a nice TV that I was very interested in but the picture for DirecTV sports was very bad and I couldn't adjust my way out of it. Some of the other, much cheaper, TVs did look better but was just wondering if the J+P system would help or potentially hurt this upscaling.
3. Cost - I 'think' that the J+P will end up being just a few thousand dollars more than an 8x8 matrix for my setup but I also need to put a transmitter and receiver in to take A/V from a family room HDDVD to the central rack system so we can share that source. Do I have to worry about audio syncing with this process? I'm also considering putting an HDDVD in the master bedroom as another source so now I'm looking at 2 additional sets of transmitters and receivers and they don't come cheap
4. My other thought was just to stick with 1080 around the house and do a much cheaper matrix for now. Set up the main TV with 4k and a direct connection to the HDDVD player and AVR and not share that source with the rest of the house. If I did this, it would start the C4 conversion process at a much less expensive starting price and then we could look at modular additions of J+P at a later date.
5. I don't know what I don't know right now. My installer has experience with J+P and fairly large commercial and residential installs but when I asked some specific questions about mixing and matching the 4k and 1080 TVs he wasn't sure since all of the systems they have installed were on 4k for all TVs. This wasn't the programmer though. It looks like this is a heavily advertised benefit of the J+P system but I'm not sure what other questions to ask or things to look for.

Thank you in advance for any thoughts or ideas you may want to share - they are much appreciated!! I see lots of smart and experienced folks on the board and I'm hoping to learn from you!
I can share some of my $.02 as an end user using a different IP System. I picked Video Storm's Netplay over JAP. Nothing wrong with JAP in fact everyone raves about it. I picked VS because it was a bit newer on the block, a few bux cheaper and also offered a few features not offered on JAP. Some of those features were the ease to add IP Cameras into your matrix without any additional hardware. I have Control4 too so I can go Watch > Driveway Camera and my driveway camera will appear on my TV. I think you can do that with JAP via an NVR or some other hardware, but not direct. VS also offers a PiP features so when my doorbell rings the TV gets a small PiP in the corner with a video feed from my door station so I can see who is at the front door. Alarm goes off after 10pm at night, my bedroom TV will turn on and all cameras will be pulled up in a 3x2 grid so I can see all of my cameras.

Another nice feature was you get a Kodi instance at each TV via Kodi being built into their VRX devices which are what you use at each TV location.

They are releasing a 4k "pro" compliant offering soon but they also have Video Storm DIY products where you bring your own hardware and you can get 4k hardware (they have a recommended list) and you can do 4k distribution too.

I am not speaking ill about JAP since I know they are the leader in the field and they are rock solid. I just know with C4 that Video Storm works very well, and I believe Zektor and 1-2 others have come out with IP systems as well.

The benefits to IP are like you mentioned - to me the biggest one is modular growth. add a Tv or add a source and if you are above 4x4 you do not need to buy a full 8x8 switch, etc.

If you are replacing a lot of gear and are going the Video Storm route, also get their fantastic CMX 16x16 audio matrix switch so everything is in proper sync.

My main tv is a Panny VT plasma. People still give me compliments and they have no idea the signal is coming from a Cat6 cable. If you want to pixel peep and whatever scientifically maybe there is a difference but on my 58'' VT Plasma I don't see any differences viewing from ~7-8' away.
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post #4 of 16 Old 09-05-2017, 01:49 PM
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What are your audio zones? Do you use an AVR at any of those zones, or is it all analog output to a Crestron audio matrix? Once you switch over to Control 4, are there plans to incorporate AVRs or use their audio matrix only?

JAP requires specific switches to function, and seeing as it's a Control 4 dealer you're working with I'm guessing they quoted you a Luxul switch which will work fine for JAP. As far as rest of network, they probably quoted you a bevy of Luxul or Pakedge "stuff," which is overpriced for what it is. But your dealer needs to eat, and if they're on the hook for supporting it then that's what you're stuck with.

As far as questions on JAP stuff, I've done a lot of installs using it. 99% large commercial projects where EDID issues aren't as prevalent. I'll still try to answer some of your questions.

1 - Make sure it's 3G product and not the 2G/3G as those are limited to 1080p HDMI 1.4. 2G/3G is cheaper and looks better on the invoice but might not be what you need....
3 - The 2G product alone has had a LOT of firmware updates to add functionality.
4 - 3G has a scaler again so you can scale to different output resolutions (2G did not fwiw.) Might want to check with your dealer on the audio part. As far as audio, you're still limited to HDMI limit of single audio stream. So if you want lossless ATMOS playing in one room, all your other devices better support it. The AVP JAP has DD processor and can send both stereo and DD (actually PLII.) so you can do multichannel and stereo combination. But for lossless you're SOL. Recommendation is to keep that lossless source only for that room and not tie into matrix.

As far as cost, your numbers are slightly off when adding in other sources. When adding in a source (say a bedroom blu-ray) you only need an additional transmitter. You don't need a pair per source.

If you only have 7 displays, you buy 7 receivers and that's it. Any sources are added with transmitters. There are reasons you would use more receivers than displays, but adding a source isn't one of them.

I would advise you go to JAP website and pull their planning guide PDF and read up about what you can and can't do.
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post #5 of 16 Old 09-06-2017, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Hisma View Post
I don't know about J+P, but my cheap monoprice hdbt matrix switch has configurable EDID. This means that the matrix is responsible for telling the end device what the source is playing... not the source itself. With this setup, you can configure the EDID on the output to your lower resolution TVs to limit to 1080p, and set your 4K TV to output full 4K. I recently had to mess around with EDID on my switch to get the setup I wanted so I know this works.

As for HDR, only the most expensive matrix switches support that, and they will utilize compression. In my opinion, unless you have a lot of money to burn, i'd wait for the technology to mature before going with something that advanced. You'd end up spending a lot of money and still be required to compromise on a compressed/lossy version of HDR.

Regular 4K, on the other-hand, will be fine. Any decent 4K matrix switch can pump out 4K60Hz @ 8-bit 4:2:0 without any compression. Good for any non-HDR video signal.

So that's my non-professional 2 cents. HDR over HDBT is still an expensive novelty. But even affordable hdbt matrix switches like the blackbird 4x4 support full 4K with configurable EDID. I personally know nothing about hd over IP, but seems to be pretty comparable to HDBT in terms of feature-set
edit: did a bit of research on J+P and it looks like it has built-in scalers that auto downscale the video to 1080p as needed. Personally though, don't see any reason to use hd over IP vs HDBT, unless all of your equipment is not centralized.
Thanks for your input - much appreciated! At this point, we are looking to distribute everything from a central rack and want the system to work the way it does now, just with the addition of 4k on a few of the TVs. I'm looking at changing to a new matrix type setup anyway so I'm thinking I may as well do most everything now since the cost savings won't be much by going a less expensive direction. Plus, it looks like J+P does do upgrades to their products for a while so I'm thinking we'll potentially be future proof for at least a few years. I'm no video/audiophile so, while I enjoy the best and want the absolute highest level of everything, I've been using component video on 1080 for 10 years and have survived. Just trying to be realistic )

I see some mention of handshake and other issues with a lot of the HDBT products and the feedback on J+P has been very positive so that's why I'm leaning in that direction.
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What are your audio zones? Do you use an AVR at any of those zones, or is it all analog output to a Crestron audio matrix? Once you switch over to Control 4, are there plans to incorporate AVRs or use their audio matrix only?

JAP requires specific switches to function, and seeing as it's a Control 4 dealer you're working with I'm guessing they quoted you a Luxul switch which will work fine for JAP. As far as rest of network, they probably quoted you a bevy of Luxul or Pakedge "stuff," which is overpriced for what it is. But your dealer needs to eat, and if they're on the hook for supporting it then that's what you're stuck with.

As far as questions on JAP stuff, I've done a lot of installs using it. 99% large commercial projects where EDID issues aren't as prevalent. I'll still try to answer some of your questions.

1 - Make sure it's 3G product and not the 2G/3G as those are limited to 1080p HDMI 1.4. 2G/3G is cheaper and looks better on the invoice but might not be what you need....
3 - The 2G product alone has had a LOT of firmware updates to add functionality.
4 - 3G has a scaler again so you can scale to different output resolutions (2G did not fwiw.) Might want to check with your dealer on the audio part. As far as audio, you're still limited to HDMI limit of single audio stream. So if you want lossless ATMOS playing in one room, all your other devices better support it. The AVP JAP has DD processor and can send both stereo and DD (actually PLII.) so you can do multichannel and stereo combination. But for lossless you're SOL. Recommendation is to keep that lossless source only for that room and not tie into matrix.

As far as cost, your numbers are slightly off when adding in other sources. When adding in a source (say a bedroom blu-ray) you only need an additional transmitter. You don't need a pair per source.

If you only have 7 displays, you buy 7 receivers and that's it. Any sources are added with transmitters. There are reasons you would use more receivers than displays, but adding a source isn't one of them.

I would advise you go to JAP website and pull their planning guide PDF and read up about what you can and can't do.
Thanks so much for that information - super helpful!! I was confused about the 2G vs. 3G and 3G/2G boxes so thank you for clarifying that. I will make sure my installer is aware as well.

Great point about only needing the transmitter for the sources in other rooms. I was thinking I would need a receiver at the rack but forgot the TX would just connect to the switch and the existing receivers would already be in place. Thanks for that info!

Have you noticed any issues with picture quality or anything else related to the compression used by J+P?

I have been through the J+P planning guide on their website but some of these minute details get lost and I wasn't able to figure them all out so thanks again for helping to clarify.

One thing I didn't understand about your post was the breakout of the audio from the HDDVD source outside of the rack. I would like to be able to keep 5.1 surround (room cannot accomodate Atmos due to super high ceiling and not wanting floor speakers) and I'm fine with that. Are you saying we can't put a transmitter on the player and split the audio out to the matrix for stereo and HDMI for the AVR in the rack and keep the 5.1 in the main room? Hmmm, that wouldn't be ideal.

For the switch, I haven't gotten a true quote yet, just some round figures. I believe the goal is to use a J+P approved switch (which I definitely want to minimize potential issues) and then Araknis for the remainder of the network - it's cheaper and the installer has had great results. I like that mix of putting the money in the most important areas but keeping budget in mind.

We will be using some form of audio matrix and amps - either C4, Audio Control, Zektor or some combination of one matrix manufacturer and the amps from someone else. We will likely only have an out of rack source with the HDDVD in one room and the slight possibility I may add one to another room but since the J+P transmitter that would break out the audio (AVP I belive) and the fact that we will probably never use that other unit, I'm thinking I will skip it for now and maybe add down the line.

Thanks again - great info!!

Last edited by JaykAVS; 09-06-2017 at 06:17 AM.
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post #7 of 16 Old 09-06-2017, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JaykAVS View Post
Thanks so much for that information - super helpful!! I was confused about the 2G vs. 3G and 3G/2G boxes so thank you for clarifying that. I will make sure my installer is aware as well.

Great point about only needing the transmitter for the sources in other rooms. I was thinking I would need a receiver at the rack but forgot the TX would just connect to the switch and the existing receivers would already be in place. Thanks for that info!

Have you noticed any issues with picture quality or anything else related to the compression used by J+P?

I have been through the J+P planning guide on their website but some of these minute details get lost and I wasn't able to figure them all out so thanks again for helping to clarify.

One thing I didn't understand about your post was the breakout of the audio from the HDDVD source outside of the rack. I would like to be able to keep 5.1 surround (room cannot accomodate Atmos due to super high ceiling and not wanting floor speakers) and I'm fine with that. Are you saying we can't put a transmitter on the player and split the audio out to the matrix for stereo and HDMI for the AVR in the rack and keep the 5.1 in the main room? Hmmm, that wouldn't be ideal.

For the switch, I haven't gotten a true quote yet, just some round figures. I believe the goal is to use a J+P approved switch (which I definitely want to minimize potential issues) and then Araknis for the remainder of the network - it's cheaper and the installer has had great results. I like that mix of putting the money in the most important areas but keeping budget in mind.

We will be using some form of audio matrix and amps - either C4, Audio Control, Zektor or some combination of one matrix manufacturer and the amps from someone else. We will likely only have an out of rack source with the HDDVD in one room and the slight possibility I may add one to another room but since the J+P transmitter that would break out the audio (AVP I belive) and the fact that we will probably never use that other unit, I'm thinking I will skip it for now and maybe add down the line.

Thanks again - great info!!
I think JAP says they are "visually lossless"? Meaning you would be hard pressed to tell the difference without testing equipment. I would believe it, but I've never really done a side by side with test patterns etc. I have seen side by side demos before with video content and didn't really notice a difference. Their 4K is limited to 4:2:0 w/HDR. They do use a pretty high bit-rate with their codec though. You can choke a 1gb link between stacked switches with a number of 720p sources.

As far as audio, are you planning to pull the analog audio from the unit itself or pulling it from the JAP transmitter that does audio extraction? The AVP will do dolby 5.1 and stereo on same HDMI. If you're pulling it directly from the source analog it will depend what that source does with the analog outputs. If you're using a mix of of AVRs and audio matrix (and no TV speakers, depending on your TV model of course) you might not need to use the more expensive AVP JAP.

One of the great things about JAP is being able to add a transmitter anywhere for a source. Especially for disks, because if the player is in the basement nobody will ever use it. That adds another issue though, getting that audio to the rack if you need to distribute it to an analog matrix. For remote sources, you can either use a balun, 22/2 cable, etc and pull audio from the source and run it to the rack, or use another JAP receiver in the rack that does audio duty only (this is how I do it sometimes.) Just something to be aware of if you plan to locate transmitters outside of rack, but still need analog audio from that source.

You can technically make JAP work with a vast number of switches, but configuration would be a pita. Their config tool auto configs for Cisco SG series and a number of Luxul, so those are the easy choice
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post #8 of 16 Old 09-06-2017, 04:09 PM
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Hello JaykAVS

I can't comment on the JAP kit but can suggest you look at our Octava HD over LAN kit as an alternative to JAP.

Whichever HD over LAN solution you go with I would suggest if you have a high quality Display/Projector in your Primary Zone then you factor in one or two 'primary' 4K UHD Sources which are 'stand alone' and connected directly to your Primary AVR/Display as all of the HD over LAN systems have to apply some form of image processing, which is never truly 'visually lossless' if you do a side by side comparison on a large Display or Projector.

HD over LAN - does the processing at the Receiver (RX) which means you can easily mix UHD, Full HD and HD Ready Displays in a system which has HD and UHD Sources, you set each RX to match the connected Sink (Display) device.

We tend to spec the CISCO SG300 GigaBit Switch for most residential instals - the MP version where we are using a lot of the ports as most of our HD over LAN systems are PoC, if you go with an alternative Switch you have to factor in how well everyone can 'support' any oddities you come across once the system is installed.

Where your 'secondary' Zones do not support DD/DTS or the HD Audio variants you can 'insert' 2-Ch audio at the Transmitter (TX) if your Source is set to Output UHD/HD + surround sound.

Control wise our system offers Routed IR (which works for lots of folk) or can be integrated with all manor of IP control systems - have you considered a more granular system using an App such as iRule plus Global Cache hardware.

Remote Sources are a great option with HD over LAN - we have a lot of customers with Karaoke systems in a family or kids zone who want to share that Source to other Zones for parties.

Joe

Octava Inc. Multi-cast HD over LAN solutions.

Ruipro UK and EU Sales and Support

The Media Factory. Residential and Commercial system Design, Consultancy, Installation, Supply and Integration.

Last edited by Joe Fernand; 09-06-2017 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Got the wrong Opp :)
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post #9 of 16 Old 09-07-2017, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I think JAP says they are "visually lossless"? Meaning you would be hard pressed to tell the difference without testing equipment. I would believe it, but I've never really done a side by side with test patterns etc. I have seen side by side demos before with video content and didn't really notice a difference. Their 4K is limited to 4:2:0 w/HDR. They do use a pretty high bit-rate with their codec though. You can choke a 1gb link between stacked switches with a number of 720p sources.

As far as audio, are you planning to pull the analog audio from the unit itself or pulling it from the JAP transmitter that does audio extraction? The AVP will do dolby 5.1 and stereo on same HDMI. If you're pulling it directly from the source analog it will depend what that source does with the analog outputs. If you're using a mix of of AVRs and audio matrix (and no TV speakers, depending on your TV model of course) you might not need to use the more expensive AVP JAP.

One of the great things about JAP is being able to add a transmitter anywhere for a source. Especially for disks, because if the player is in the basement nobody will ever use it. That adds another issue though, getting that audio to the rack if you need to distribute it to an analog matrix. For remote sources, you can either use a balun, 22/2 cable, etc and pull audio from the source and run it to the rack, or use another JAP receiver in the rack that does audio duty only (this is how I do it sometimes.) Just something to be aware of if you plan to locate transmitters outside of rack, but still need analog audio from that source.

You can technically make JAP work with a vast number of switches, but configuration would be a pita. Their config tool auto configs for Cisco SG series and a number of Luxul, so those are the easy choice
This is great info as well. Appreciate you taking the time!

So I'm starting to think that the best setup might be the HDDVD player direct HDMI to my main TV which is the main concern about good 4k display - the other TVs won't matter as much so I'm less concerned about the absolute best on them (bedroom and office).

I do need to think about the audio though. I believe I will be looking at the Sony 1000 player and that has 2 HDMI outputs. So I believe I could connect directly to the TV for the best, uncompressed video and run a J+P transmitter from the player to the rack to share the source (or a coax/optical audio out? If I don't need to share the source) to the AVR for the surround and then the AVR to the audio matrix? Or just split the 2nd HDMI out for audio? My main concern with any of these audio connections would be syncing. Right now I have 1080p blu ray set up this way with an optical out for audio to the AVR and have no syncing issues but not sure if the J+P would cause any problems.

I'm even wondering if I need to go the J+P route for the extra money if I'm less concerned with resolution everywhere else. Just connect the main TV with direct HDMI and go with a less expensive option everywhere else. Decisions, decisions . . .

Thanks again for your help!!
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post #10 of 16 Old 09-07-2017, 05:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello JaykAVS

I can't comment on the JAP kit but can suggest you look at our Octava HD over LAN kit as an alternative to JAP.

Whichever HD over LAN solution you go with I would suggest if you have a high quality Display/Projector in your Primary Zone then you factor in one or two 'primary' 4K UHD Sources which are 'stand alone' and connected directly to your Primary AVR/Display as all of the HD over LAN systems have to apply some form of image processing, which is never truly 'visually lossless' if you do a side by side comparison on a large Display or Projector.

HD over LAN - does the processing at the Receiver (RX) which means you can easily mix UHD, Full HD and HD Ready Displays in a system which has HD and UHD Sources, you set each RX to match the connected Sink (Display) device.

We tend to spec the CISCO SG300 GigaBit Switch for most residential instals - the MP version where we are using a lot of the ports as most of our HD over LAN systems are PoC, if you go with an alternative Switch you have to factor in how well everyone can 'support' any oddities you come across once the system is installed.

Where your 'secondary' Zones do not support DD/DTS or the HD Audio variants you can 'insert' 2-Ch audio at the Transmitter (TX) if your Source is set to Output UHD/HD + surround sound.

Control wise our system offers Routed IR (which works for lots of folk) or can be integrated with all manor of IP control systems - have you considered a more granular system using an App such as iRule plus Global Cache hardware.

Remote Sources are a great option with HD over LAN - we have a lot of customers with Karaoke systems in a family or kids zone who want to share that Source to other Zones for parties.

Joe
Thanks for the info! I am rethinking things a bit on the J+P side but my main concern is the implementation by the installer. I don't want to be a guinea pig again - my Crestron installer was great but I think they were cutting their teeth with my system and I don't want to be a training ground for someone learning J+P this time around.

I will take a look at your other suggestions.

Regarding the networking, I agree about the mixing and matching and would be skeptical if the installer didn't have experience with this setup so I feel more comfortable. He could easily just recommend all Luxor or Cisco networking equipment and make more money so I have confidence in the setup he is recommending.

Thanks again!
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post #11 of 16 Old 09-07-2017, 08:05 AM
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This is great info as well. Appreciate you taking the time!

So I'm starting to think that the best setup might be the HDDVD player direct HDMI to my main TV which is the main concern about good 4k display - the other TVs won't matter as much so I'm less concerned about the absolute best on them (bedroom and office).

I do need to think about the audio though. I believe I will be looking at the Sony 1000 player and that has 2 HDMI outputs. So I believe I could connect directly to the TV for the best, uncompressed video and run a J+P transmitter from the player to the rack to share the source (or a coax/optical audio out? If I don't need to share the source) to the AVR for the surround and then the AVR to the audio matrix? Or just split the 2nd HDMI out for audio? My main concern with any of these audio connections would be syncing. Right now I have 1080p blu ray set up this way with an optical out for audio to the AVR and have no syncing issues but not sure if the J+P would cause any problems.

I'm even wondering if I need to go the J+P route for the extra money if I'm less concerned with resolution everywhere else. Just connect the main TV with direct HDMI and go with a less expensive option everywhere else. Decisions, decisions . . .

Thanks again for your help!!
I'm not familiar with that player. Why not just send it directly to AVR? Does your AVR not support 4k? Without knowing how audio works in all of your zones, equipment used, or your expectations it's hard to give accurate answer about what you should do...

IMO, you should ask your dealer to loan you a JAP transmitter and receiver. You can connect these point to point and hook it up to your TV and see if you notice a difference going direct from the player vs going through the JAP system.
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I'm not familiar with that player. Why not just send it directly to AVR? Does your AVR not support 4k? Without knowing how audio works in all of your zones, equipment used, or your expectations it's hard to give accurate answer about what you should do...

IMO, you should ask your dealer to loan you a JAP transmitter and receiver. You can connect these point to point and hook it up to your TV and see if you notice a difference going direct from the player vs going through the JAP system.
Good suggestion on the test boxes!

The player I was referring to is the sony UBPx1000 model. A few extras for pro a/v setups.
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post #13 of 16 Old 09-07-2017, 03:16 PM
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'He could easily just recommend all Luxor or Cisco networking equipment and make more money' - I've yet to figure out how to make money 'selling' CISCO gear, it pretty much goes Out at its purchase price

On the Control side we work with C4 Dealers and have a lot of In-house experience with Crestron/AMX and also know iRule/On-Controls pretty well - your preferred Control solution/cost all comes down to how all encompassing you need/want the Control layer to be.

Crestron always has folk thinking $$$$ - for relatively simple Video Distribution systems you can often do enough with the more cost effective solutions such as the RMC3, https://www.crestron.com/products/model/RMC3

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So I'm pretty sold on these features of J+P. I had a few questions for the gurus on this board and was hoping to get some feedback to either validate this decision, make me feel better or change my mind.

1. I am a bit concerned about the proprietary compression that J+P uses. They are taking a lot of data and compressing it pretty heavily to get it to fit through CAT5e/CAT6. Would anyone be able to comment on the quality of the video for things like HDR and 4k?
2. Also concerned about the scaling for 720p/1080i/P to 4k. I saw a nice TV that I was very interested in but the picture for DirecTV sports was very bad and I couldn't adjust my way out of it. Some of the other, much cheaper, TVs did look better but was just wondering if the J+P system would help or potentially hurt this upscaling.
3. Cost - I 'think' that the J+P will end up being just a few thousand dollars more than an 8x8 matrix for my setup but I also need to put a transmitter and receiver in to take A/V from a family room HDDVD to the central rack system so we can share that source. Do I have to worry about audio syncing with this process? I'm also considering putting an HDDVD in the master bedroom as another source so now I'm looking at 2 additional sets of transmitters and receivers and they don't come cheap
4. My other thought was just to stick with 1080 around the house and do a much cheaper matrix for now. Set up the main TV with 4k and a direct connection to the HDDVD player and AVR and not share that source with the rest of the house. If I did this, it would start the C4 conversion process at a much less expensive starting price and then we could look at modular additions of J+P at a later date.
5. I don't know what I don't know right now. My installer has experience with J+P and fairly large commercial and residential installs but when I asked some specific questions about mixing and matching the 4k and 1080 TVs he wasn't sure since all of the systems they have installed were on 4k for all TVs. This wasn't the programmer though. It looks like this is a heavily advertised benefit of the J+P system but I'm not sure what other questions to ask or things to look for.

Thank you in advance for any thoughts or ideas you may want to share - they are much appreciated!! I see lots of smart and experienced folks on the board and I'm hoping to learn from you!
We use a ton of JAP product (thousands of end points a years) in commercial applications. Our typical installs are in the 15-20 inputs x 55-75 outputs. In these situations HDoverIP is the only cost effective options as a traditional chassis based matrix gets expensive in that type of I/O counts.

1) The 3G products are significantly better than the 2G products when it comes to compression, but it requires significantly more bandwidth (more expensive switches). The original 2G stuff used JPEG2000 compression, I cannot remember off the top of my head what the 3G stuff is using. The 3G stuff is usable in a house, but I wouldn't be using it in a theater or for any critical viewing.

2) Interlaced sources such as DirecTV has always been the biggest issue for most of the HDoverIP solutions that we have tested. They are getting better, but coming from an uncompressed RGB format you will notice a quality decrease. As far as the 4k scaling from lower quality sources, I haven't noticed any issues with it. It is equivalent to what the TV would be doing upscaling the same lower resolution source.

3) COST- This is going to be the biggest issue. You are adding a lot of complexity to the system by going with HDoverIP, with not much added benefit. Our break even for clients is 16x16 systems, if you are under 16x16 I would never spec out HDoverIP unless there was a very specific feature set I needed (Video Wall processing as an example) that I could not do with a standard matrix. To give you an idea I put a Crestron DM-MD16x16 matrix in my house to allow for any future expansion I might need, but I know I will never go over the 16x16 count in this house. If you want to get out of the crestorn eco system, Wyrestorm and a couple others have great 4K HDBaseT options. I went with crestron because of the control system integration and the amount of I/O flexibility with it.
You don't need additional transmitters and receivers for the HDDVD players, you one need transmitters. Transmitter would go in the room locally with the device than patch into the switch in the av closet via Cat 6 Cable.

4) This is how I typically build systems if budget is an issue. Theater and media rooms with 4K content get a local AVR with local 4k sources AND a 1080P receiver fed from the video matrix. You can watch any of your local sources in native 4K with no compression, but you can also access any of the global video sources in the matrix system. I am working on putting a built thread together for my current house system that will go into more detail about this, but it will take some time to get everything together. At the end of the day if you are putting a control system on top of it it will handle all of this to make it work seamlessly.

IMO you are adding a lot of extra complexity by going with JAP or any other HDoverIP solution for such a small system. Make sure the network is setup properly and you are using quality equipment, we use Cisco SG500 and SG500X switches, Mikrotik Routers, and Ruckus APs (Ubiquiti for budget projects that don't headily rely on wifi). They will probably sell you Luxul stuff as part of the package, but I have had issues with it in the past and will not spec or use it on any of my install, but I know other dealers that have had decent luck with it.

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post #15 of 16 Old 09-13-2017, 03:43 PM
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My system is j+p 3g it consist of 5 sources and 6 tv. Since install 2 years ago it has been rock solid. Heos for whole house audio integrated with J+P. And rti for control.

J+P updates their firmware regularly and they keep adding features like plug and play etc.

I like the system very much.
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post #16 of 16 Old 09-16-2017, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow - lots more to sogest here. Thank you for taking the time to post. I will no of a few questions ask let this sink in.

My main goal with going J+P was to be able to have the mixed TVs - some 4k and some std hi def - on the same system and to be blue to share a few of the 4k sources throughout the house - Apple TV, JD blu ray, etc. We have all in. Wiling speakers and I still want the audio coming out of those as we've gotten used to that. Except in the family Room where we have an AVR in the rack in the basement.

I only see matrix switches with the ability to lock a resolution but not downscale for the STD Hd sets like bathroom, kitchen, etc.

Thanks again!
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