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post #151 of 170 Old 10-01-2004, 06:49 PM
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Sorry for coming on somewhat strong...didn't mean to...

I am a strong believer in the standard product cycle...innovate...build a product...get it to the masses, and the product life cycle investment growth will lend itself to continuous improvement of that technology and furtherance of the same technology to more of the masses...artifically restricting that product thru a limited distribution and/or installation will strangle and restrite the growth of that product and technology...seems to me that all of the discussion on this thread kinda backs up this point, HA has been out for many years....who has in the common masses?

Show it the common person thru a broad based consumer point of sale system (aka home depot), give them alternatives and flexibility (design help for the DIY all the way to full custom install), and I bet you see a tremendous growth in HA...people have technology shoved down there throats every day...mostly is is used as a way for their employers to get more for less beat out of their people....gee how about people finally using technology to make their own lives simpler and better without paying an arm and a leg....imho only of course.

Vix
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post #152 of 170 Old 10-01-2004, 06:58 PM
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Maybe I missed something here...I assumed from the original message that this was NOT going to be sold to John Q public, installers only need apply....so, here is the bottom line...will I be able to buy Control4 thru a standard retail or dealer outlet (even if a speciality outlet), or will I have to sweet talk, cajole it out of some high price custom installer like I would with Crestrom or AMX now?

thanks
tv

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post #153 of 170 Old 10-01-2004, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg C
What you are forgetting is what this will cost Control 4 to have tech support for the DYI. It is much easier to provide tech support for custom install dealers who have had training on the system, and may need some assistance once in a moon, compared to the support required to walk thru an installation to a DYI type.
That's what they used to say about computers, software, telephones, plumbing supplies, electrical supplies, kitchen cabinets, wall stone, etc, etc.

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post #154 of 170 Old 10-01-2004, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by trdr_vix
...so, here is the bottom line...will I be able to buy Control4 thru a standard retail or dealer outlet (even if a speciality outlet), or will I have to sweet talk, cajole it out of some high price custom installer like I would with Crestrom or AMX now?
You are creating a distinction that does not exist. Products like Crestron and AMX are typically sold through higher end retail outfits that do custom installation as well as "pure" custom installation outfits for obvious reasons - it's an expensive high-end product. Control4 will be sold through a similar distribution system of higher end retailers and custom installers except it will obviously be a lower priced product and therefore you might see dealers that are in demographic locations that cannot support Crestron or AMX, or focus more on mid-level markets selling the Control product.
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post #155 of 170 Old 10-01-2004, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg C
What you are forgetting is what this will cost Control 4 to have tech support for the DYI. It is much easier to provide tech support for custom install dealers who have had training on the system, and may need some assistance once in a moon, compared to the support required to walk thru an installation to a DYI type.
Most people I know will use the net for support. Google and friends is a wonderful tool, as are yahoo groups, forums such as AVS, etc. Most will *not* call tech support -- we have become too disillusioned with its generally poor quality (yes, exceptions do exist).

The flip side is, Lutron is selling RadioRA to DIYers, and they have an *extremely* competent 24 hour tech support line. From what I hear, RadioRA is flying off shelves like hotcakes. (I was about to go RA route, but want to wait and see what develops with Control4.)

BTW -- to Control4's point, I can see how they would want to carefully rollout their initial release. The first 6 months or so is when their reputation will be established, good or bad. Having 'trained dealers' be majority installers during that time period does make some sense to me.

Afterwards, I do hope to see C4 *out there*, available to anyone with knowhow to use it. And of course installers could/should be there who want a turnkey system, or to bail out DIYers. :)

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post #156 of 170 Old 10-01-2004, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by trdr_vix
Maybe I missed something here...I assumed from the original message that this was NOT going to be sold to John Q public, installers only need apply....so, here is the bottom line...will I be able to buy Control4 thru a standard retail or dealer outlet (even if a speciality outlet), or will I have to sweet talk, cajole it out of some high price custom installer like I would with Crestrom or AMX now?

thanks
tv
You'll just need to have a good dealer that will work with you. Most would think that a Lutron Homeworks system is a very tightly distributed product only available via a turnkey dealer, but I've sold this system to many DIY'ers over the years and have many great success stories. I end up having to provide support for that customer when issues pop up, but that usually isn't a big deal. Is this my business focus?, no. But, it does help my totals and a sale is a sale no matter what. I'm sure that once Control4 has a product shipment and the gear proves worthy of all this hype, I'll help out many DIY'ers with their C4 projects. I know that I won't be the only one working with DIY'er on occasion.

Brent Huskins
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post #157 of 170 Old 10-01-2004, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by trdr_vix
I am a strong believer in the standard product cycle...innovate...build a product...get it to the masses, and the product life cycle investment growth will lend itself to continuous improvement of that technology and furtherance of the same technology to more of the masses...artifically restricting that product thru a limited distribution and/or installation will strangle and restrite the growth of that product and technology...seems to me that all of the discussion on this thread kinda backs up this point, HA has been out for many years....who has in the common masses?
Ah how I love those who praise the free market but hate it when it doesn't work to their advantage. Let me re-word your post for you with what you really meant to say with the modification in color:
Quote:

I am a strong believer in the standard product cycle...innovate...build a product...get it to the masses, and the product life cycle investment growth will lend itself to continuous improvement of that technology and furtherance of the same technology to more of the masses...but I hate it when I want something and can't have it. Then I call it artifically restricting that product thru a limited distribution.
It is the beautiful free market at work, the ever present balance between supply and demand. As soon as demand has increased sufficiently the HA market will experience exactly the cycle you describe. In the mean time, there is NO "artifical restricting" going on here. Companies are free to market their products in the way that they believe will obtain them the most business. The public is free to purchase their products or not. If one company is wrong in the way they choose to market a product another company can come in and market their product differently. And in fact that is what constantly occurs in markets ALL the time. Many companies even choose complete different distribution methods for different product lines. Lutron chooses to market their dimmers through Home Depot. If you want to purchase their HomeWorks system you are going to buy it through a different channel. Why? Because they feel they obtain the most sales that way - and they are almost certainly right. But the day that they think they can sell a billion dollars worth of HomeWorks systems through Home Depot they will do it in a heartbeat. Are you naive enough to think that Control4 wouldn't go the Home Depot route in a second if they thought that's the way they would sell more product? Do you honestly think they want to limit their distribution to custom installers? They choose the path that will result in the most sales, pure and simple.

The fact that a manufacturer has the common sense not to market a high-end control system line through Home Depot and commit business suicide does not mean they are "artifically restricting" anything just because that's they way you'd like to purchase it.

As I've pointed out a hundred times, why I have I never seen guys like you ONCE, even ONCE rant about the fact that you can't buy Dell at Best Buy or about how they are "artifically restricting" sales by only selling direct. Certainly they are restricting the distribution model, aren't they? The answer of course is that you don't complain about it because you like it and think the Dell model of wide distribution it benefits you. But it's certainly every bit as controlled or restricted as any manufacturer that sells to hundreds of privately owned businesses could ever be.

But the free market isn't about benefiting you, it's about allowing the market to operate in a free manner. Which means we may not always get to like the way we have to buy things. I'd like to be able to buy Armani suits at Walmart and not at one of their "artifically restricted" hoiti toiti sellers. But if I could but it at Walmart than it wouldn't really be an Armani, would it?

The most hilarious thing is that for every misguided guy here that loves to rant about this type of thing you've got a bunch of equally misguided installers that love to rant (just visit the custom installer forum at Remote Central and see the arguing there) about how horrible it is because the market is growing and distributiuon/competition is expanding - oh woe is me. These guys are EXACTLY the same as you even though your goals are completely different - they only like it when the free market benfits them. So if a manufacturer sells to Best Buy and requires $10,000 minimum orders, they complain about how horrible that is. And BTW, the very type of thing you want IS happening slowly and surely and will continue to happen. And when the free market is ready, you'll find your HA products at Home Depot or Best Buy. Then you'll get to hear all us custom installers moaning and groaning because we don't like that distribution model because it doesn't benefit us.
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post #158 of 170 Old 10-01-2004, 09:47 PM
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Wow,

I'm not sure where to begin.

First, most integrators started out as DIY guys.

That said TV, consumers have a difficult time installing home networks, TIVO's and the like.

We have made it easier for CEDIA type installers to do more jobs in the time they have.

You clearly aren't a typical consumer and you should find a certified dealer to work with and share ideas. This would be the best way to get a system installed in your home.

Great point Greg. It's the basic stuff that causes the biggest problems like wire run length, termination and a well dressed cabinet.

TV- You will be able to buy the products at a certified Control4 dealer. I'm sure you could work out a dealer to install it yourself.

We would be happy to help you find a certified dealer.

Please contact me at jgist@control4.com

Chat soon

Jim
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post #159 of 170 Old 10-01-2004, 09:47 PM
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Wow,

I'm not sure where to begin.

First, most integrators started out as DIY guys.

That said TV, consumers have a difficult time installing home networks, TIVO's and the like.

We have made it easier for CEDIA type installers to do more jobs in the time they have.

You clearly aren't a typical consumer and you should find a certified dealer to work with and share ideas. This would be the best way to get a system installed in your home.

Great point Greg. It's the basic stuff that causes the biggest problems like wire run length, termination and a well dressed cabinet.

TV- You will be able to buy the products at a certified Control4 dealer. I'm sure you could work out a dealer to install it yourself.

We would be happy to help you find a certified dealer.

Please contact me at jgist@control4.com

Chat soon

Jim
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post #160 of 170 Old 10-02-2004, 12:12 PM
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I should drink less coffee...now I got two threads made at me
:(

Thanks for the thoughts...I don't see the comparison with Dell since they sell and have sold to John Q public since day one...I know because my brother is a system architecht and bought one of the first ones many years ago and talked to Michael himself when he couldn't get ahold of a technician when he had a problem installing an ESDI drive in the machine...but let me ask some (rhetorcial) questions here regarding offering a lower price solution only thru custom installers...as an installer you make money basically on material markup plus labor (building in labor and material overhead costs of course), right?. You may also sell other services? Do you intend on marking up this lower price solution more to match the higher price HA solutions and make more material margin? Are you going to go out and be able to sell more of the lower price solution systems because of the lower price and spread your labor overhead accordingly? Will you have to hire more installers if you get this greater volume, and the associated higher employee overhead costs? Were you looking to reduce installer hours for each system and resultant less billable hours for each job? Were you looking for a lower price solution and associated margin on the equipment side? Is there a sales/marketing campaign attached to this innovative and simpler approach for greater market penetration?

Just trying to see what this easier, lower cost solution is all about, if it's not about getting it out to more John Q masses, what is the differentiation if it does not open up greater market penetration thru a complimentary sales/marketing program. since it is not going to be able to be directly seen on the price/demand curve due to the closed sales channel.

BTW regarding your comment on "I hate it when I want something and can't have it" I am the one with the money...I thought that's what a business wants...my money? Is there some satisfaction that someone gets in depriving me of a product? Seems like that kind of business is the one that commits business suicide. I also thought the whole idea of control4 was not "high end" it was a lower end product, much easier to install, with full capability as the high end system...why is home Depot business suicide? Seems to work well for the other x0,000 or so suppliers that sell thru them.

I am not trying to be difficult, just understand a very good reason why this system (after a good shakeout period as was mentioned earlier) cannot be offered thru a more generalized distribution, marketing and sales program.

tv

Vix
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post #161 of 170 Old 10-02-2004, 03:09 PM
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TV,

Don't worry about it.

This is a fun industry and like you we all have caught the automation bug!

Jim
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post #162 of 170 Old 10-02-2004, 04:10 PM
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trdr_vix,

I thought you presented some very valid views with your original post even though it undoubtedly made just about every custom installer who read it bristle at your view of the future. It was only a few of your comments mixed in that managed to irritate me, hence the somewhat strident tone of my first post.
Quote:
Originally posted by trdr_vix
I don't see the comparison with Dell since they sell and have sold to John Q public since day one.
My point was simply that companies always impose restrictions on how they sell their products with one goal in mind – optimizing their profits. Dell is every bit as restrictive about how their product can be sold as Control4 will be, just in a different way. The only real difference is that the demand for PC’s is huge, whereas the demand for HA is still relatively small. It is misleading to say “Dell has sold their product to John Q Public since day oneâ€, because it suggests that Control4 is not selling their product to John Q Public. They are also selling their products to John Q Public through dealers, just like HP, IBM etc.

Before you say that the demand for PC’s is huge because distribution is wide and prices are low, yes they are. But before a product reaches that point it must usually first go through a product cycle of the type you described. First the product will be priced higher to pay for production costs and R&D. Then, IF demand is strong and IF manufacturing efficiencies are in place to allow prices to drop and IF there are a sufficient number of competitors (sometimes it only takes ONE) manufacturing prices will start to drop and distribution will increase.

This happened with plasma televisions. First they were marketed very heavily through custom installers because they were the only ones that were selling them when they were 25K. Prices continued to drop, consumer awareness of the technology continued to rise along with demand, and surprise of surprises you now find plasma TV’s in Best Buy, Circuit City, Sears etc. This cycle is as inevitable as the sun coming up in the morning and going down in the evening.

However, that cycle does not always happen within 5 years and will only happen in the case of HA when certain factors have been sufficient met – such as consumer demand, manufacturing efficiencies, ease of installation etc.
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Do you intend on marking up this lower price solution more to match the higher price HA solutions and make more material margin?
I suspect your question is somewhat of a test, if not I think it reflects a lack of awareness of the amount of competition that already exists within the custom installation market. No, I don’t think anyone will be charging more margin to match the higher priced solutions. If only such a world existed we custom installers would be laughing to the bank. Pricing will be much lower based on the lower cost of the product.
Quote:
Are you going to go out and be able to sell more of the lower price solution systems because of the lower price and spread your labor overhead accordingly? Will you have to hire more installers if you get this greater volume, and the associated higher employee overhead costs? Were you looking to reduce installer hours for each system and resultant less billable hours for each job? Were you looking for a lower price solution…

Just trying to see what this easier, lower cost solution is all about, if it's not about getting it out to more John Q masses, what is the differentiation if it does not open up greater market penetration thru a complimentary sales/marketing program.
Yes, I think the things you describe are what everyone hopes for. Custom installers would like to have a product that allows for lower material costs as well as installation/ programming costs. The problem until now is that such a product has not existed. Hopefully Control4 is one of the first steps on the way to that vision.
Quote:
BTW regarding your comment on "I hate it when I want something and can't have it" I am the one with the money...I thought that's what a business wants...my money? Is there some satisfaction that someone gets in depriving me of a product? Seems like that kind of business is the one that commits business suicide.
What I meant by that statement is that people frequently talk out of both sides of their mouth. They praise the free market when it gives them what they want ($500 PC’s) but claim that companies are imposing “artificial restrictions†on products when it doesn’t give them what they want. Those “artificial restrictions†as you call them are not artificial, they are based on supply and demand.

This relates back to my fist statements in this post. Using PC’s as an example, they were first sold primarily through “boutique†type independent stores. Nothing “artificial†about it. Those initial independents played a vital part in the development of the PC market. Now that cycle is repeating itself in the HA market. As pricing, demand etc. adjusted the product achieve wider and wider distribution.
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I also thought the whole idea of control4 was not "high end" it was a lower end product, much easier to install, with full capability as the high end system...why is home Depot business suicide?
Because of how the market works. See below.
Quote:
Seems to work well for the other x0,000 or so suppliers that sell thru them.
Flawed logic. It also doesn’t work well for x0,000 or so suppliers who don’t sell their product though Home Depot. The statement above is probably the most flawed in your post, insofar as it represents a common and incorrect assumption which is that “it worked for product A so it will work for product Bâ€. Or to put it another way, that the HA market is the same as the PC market or the lumber market etc. Each of those markets is distinctly different, which is why for example the cost for HA equipment is still much more expensive than the cost for PC equipment.

But to answer your question it would be suicide because:

1. Products like this are still at the absolute highest rung of electronics for the home because:
A. Pricing is still high. It is a breakthrough compared to what currently exists but it is still high. That limits demand.
B. There are very few people that understand how to install and configure them. This product would be so far beyond the scope of your average Home Depot salesperson it’s not even funny.
C. They MUST work with the existing sales channel if they want to sell the product. But the existing sales channel would laugh their ass off and not touch the product if it was in Home Depot stores. And Home Depot stores couldn’t sell it. So that’s why it would be suicide. That’s all opinion of course but I think it’s sound and anyone that has a clue about how this market works will confirm it for you. Believe me when I tell you this has already been tried before (and will keep being tried until someone gets it right). A few years back AMX decided they were going to market a lower priced turnkey system through cable companies and telcos. The project failed MISERABLY.

Having said all that I think your vision is what will happen in some form at some point in the future and is spot on.
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post #163 of 170 Old 10-02-2004, 06:05 PM
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QQQ...I am not going to disagree with any of your post..however, I think we have a different basic assumption.....my entire posting stream was based on an assumption that John Q cannot buy the equipmenrt at all (put aside personnal networking and contacts thru places like this board)....he/she MUST buy the equipment as installed...your entire post seems to infer that the equipment is readily available, thru speciality and stereo dealers...is that true? I would have no problem with that...Putting aside the generous help I have been offered here to obtain HA equipment, will I be able to walk into a dealer (like tweeters) as a John Q and buy Control4? If so...then I acquiece my entire posting stream....and your basis is correct, it will only be a matter of time before the right kind of HA solution shows up also in Home Depot (BTW I used Home Depot in a figurative sense, I hope that is understood).

thanks everyone for the comments and the help on other threads...

Vix
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post #164 of 170 Old 10-02-2004, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
I think we have a different basic assumption.....my entire posting stream was based on an assumption that John Q cannot buy the equipment at all...
Yes, I think we are working from different assumptions. I don't think it's going to be especially hard for a DIY to find a dealer willing to sell them the product "over the counter" so to speak. Nor for that matter has that ever been very hard with Crestron or AMX. There will certainly still be custom installers and dealers that aren't interested in selling it over the counter, some of whom aren't interested in selling ANY products over the counter, even a pair of speakers. And I don't see anything wrong with that - many of them are not retail establishments and have no desire to be.
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post #165 of 170 Old 10-12-2004, 08:48 PM
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In an earlier post it was mentioned that the Control4 system would work with other media servers. How about digital audio servers like Squeezebox (www.slimdevices.com)? I'd jump at the chance to use the Control4 LCD (if it can provide source feedback) or any of the touchscreens!

Both systems are ethernet based & with a strong developer community for Squeezebox it should be easy to integrate.
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post #166 of 170 Old 10-13-2004, 05:53 PM
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Our products with work with any IR or serial device.

If we don't have th eplug and play drivers you can creat generic drivers.

Jim
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post #167 of 170 Old 10-13-2004, 09:06 PM
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...now I'm getting excited...

with the wireless lcd keypad - what are it's limitations as far as information it can or can't receive & display?
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post #168 of 170 Old 10-14-2004, 06:55 AM
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Hi,

We have two types of keypads.

LCD Grayscale

Full GRaphic/Color mini touch

Both can control all aspects of the home and display lists of infomation but the mini touch will also allow you to display jacket art for the media as well as other high res graphic icons.

Jim
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post #169 of 170 Old 10-15-2004, 11:36 AM
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Another question regarding the keypads (both LCD grey & color touch)...

Is there a visual cue on the keypad &/or touchscreen to notify the user that a certain source is in use?
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post #170 of 170 Old 11-29-2004, 03:12 PM
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If interested, I wrote up what I saw in the Control4 boot at EHX.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...postid=4728826

Max
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