Crestron responds to Control 4, Adagio at CEDIA - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 279 Old 09-09-2005, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Did anyone think they were going to sit on the sidelines as Control4 goes after their dealer base with a low end system. Nope. If this is shipping it delivers more than Control4 day one. But with the benefit of being able to add any of Crestrons higher end touchpanels etc if you choose.

Crestron Delivers Packaged Home Entertainment

Crestron Introduces Adagio Home Entertainment Solutions

Crestron launches Adagio, a new line of home entertainment solutions offering out of the box functionality without any programming or configuration required. Adagio is a true plug-and-play solution that consists of several products including whole house audio distribution, home entertainment system, digital audio server and audio room expander. Individual Adagio systems may be packaged with Crestron keypads or LCD panels for expanded control. Adagio is a simple, economical introduction to Crestron whole house automation solutions including iPod interfaces on touchpanels, infiNETâ„¢ wireless dimmers, and HVAC control. Adagio has a 2-Series engine built-in to accommodate Crestron control systems to make Adagio part of a complete integrated automation solution.

The Adagio Audio Distribution system (ADAD) distributes six stereo audio sources to six zones throughout the house, featuring 12-45W channels of audio. The six sources include four external stereo audio inputs with loop-through for expansion, and two internal sources from independent AM/FM and XM satellite radio tuners. The Adagio Audio Server (ADAS) can be added as a source, providing full control of the music library right from the front panel without any programming or configuration. Truly plug-n-play, the ADAD will immediately recognize the Crestron audio server. No programming, PCs or touchpanels are necessary for system set-up or control. All functionality is easily accessible directly from the front panel, and the intuitive LCD display makes it easy to use.

The Adagio Audio Distribution System (ADES) expands on the functionality of the ADAD. The ADES offers additional sources and control ports. The ADES features 10 looping stereo audio inputs distributed to 6 rooms. The ADES also offers 6 pre-amp outputs that can be set as variable or fixed. ADES provides expanded control capability additional IR and RS 232 ports, and adding four digital inputs to receive motion detectors and power sensors, and four relays for shades, drapes and lifts.

ADES also features three dual-tuner card slots that can be populated by a choice of three insertion cards: AM/FM + XM Satellite; AM/FM + Sirius Satellite; and Dual AM/FM Tuner.

Both the ADAD and the ADES feature 6 Cresnet ports for plug and play connectivity with Crestron's C2N 12-button keypads or the new AD-PAD LCD wall mount controller for remote control from every room. The new AD-PAD LCD wall mount controller provides 2-way communications for full-function control and real-time feedback. AD-PAD features four soft-buttons, NavWheel control, and dot-matrix display.

Crestron offers the Adagio Audio Expander (ADAE) for applications that demand more than six audio zones. Up to three audio expanders can be added to an Adagio system for a total of 24 independent zones. The ADAE also provides 10 additional loop-through stereo inputs and another 12 - 45W channels of audio.

The Adagio Audio Server (ADAS) is a plug and play source with any Adagio system via a built-in Ethernet port for immediate, full control of your music library. Crestron offers a choice of three models, each featuring additional hard drive memory: 80GB; 160GB and the largest, 250GB, provides over 1700 hours of music at 320K. The ADAS uses a dedicated audio board with professional A-to-D converters so it can handle the highest quality MP3 and even full uncompressed, lossless audio, and pumps out audiophile quality sound. Operating on an embedded XP operating system rather than on Linux, ADAS supports a much wider range of file formats including Windows Media Audio. With Crestron's exclusive e-Control®2 Web Server built-in, the customizable interface produces multiple sortable fields and cover art on a single display.

All Adagio systems are fully compatible with Crestron's award-winning Total Home Technology home automation solutions, including e-Control®2 for remote system control and monitoring from any PC or PDA. Adagio is expandable to a customized whole house automation system including Crestron's new iPod interface and infiNET wireless mesh technology.












New from Crestron, Adagioâ„¢ delivers a complete, cost-effective solution for high-performance multi-room audio distribution. Right out-of-the-box, the ADAD Audio Distribution System and ADES Entertainment System each provide sophisticated audio signal routing, processing, and amplification for up to 6 rooms, with easy expansion using the ADAE Audio Expander.

A choice of integrated AM/FM and XM Satellite Radio on the ADAD, or modular AM/FM, XM and Sirius Satellite Radio tuner cards on the ADES, let listeners in each room choose from their favorite radio stations. Plug-and-play compatibility with Crestron's ADAS Audio Server and CEN-IPOD Apple® iPod® Connect delivers easy access to an entire CD collection's worth of music.

As the centerpiece for any home audio system, the ADAS Audio Server provides an easy way to store and catalog a complete music collection, with instant access to any album or track from touchpanels, keypads and computers throughout the home.

The ADAS Audio Server is a hard disk based audio system that can store hundreds of hours of music, all with the convenience of easy browsing and instant access. Displayed on a video monitor, Web browser, or Crestron touchpanel, the friendly onscreen menu shows full album, track, and artist names as well as album cover art. The ADAS even lets you listen to your music on any computer and transfer tracks to portable devices using Windows Media® Player or Apple® iTunes®.

The ADAS lets you organize and control your music collection the way you want it. Using playlists, the ADAS can be customized to suit the individual tastes of each family member, with the ability to compile different playlists for different moods and occasions. And with up to 4 discrete stereo outputs, the ADAS can play four different tracks in four different rooms at once, all with audiophile quality.

Also available, the PowerFile R200DL lets you easily rip an entire 200 disc CD collection in a single operation. Makes loading the ADAS easy and efficient.
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post #2 of 279 Old 09-10-2005, 05:39 AM
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Pretty impressive looking . Lots of attractive keypad options and the LCD keypad looks great . They're definitely working towards the lower end of the market, but probably still cost 2-3 times the price of C4 .

What do you think QQQ ?
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post #3 of 279 Old 09-10-2005, 06:26 AM
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No programming. Auto discovery. AM/FM/XM tuner or cards that let you pick AM/FM, XM and/Serius. If you include the IPOD interface and Media server all above for $5500. Ability to wire into wired or wireless Thermostats ( yes, wireless control but you will still need to run thermostat wires ) and dimmers. Ethernet control too. Media servers come in single, dual and quad steams. Oh, but you will have to go to a Crestron dealer which will end its interest on this site. No software programming if you stay with audio only. Minimal programming if you include lighting and HVAC.

Alan
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post #4 of 279 Old 09-10-2005, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiblesolutions
Oh, but you will have to go to a Crestron dealer which will end its interest on this site. Alan
I think it's really sad that battle lines have been drawn between DIY'ers and pros on this forum .
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post #5 of 279 Old 09-10-2005, 11:01 PM
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I agree but I think it's the DIYs that need to examen this existential question. I am more than willing to help anyone solve a problem but how often must it be stated by a DIY that they resent the fact that dealers are middle men and wish it otherwise. Ironically it's not all that unusual but only here is the resentment towards dealers white hot.

I help where appropriate but I post less often then previously. Why stay and play where you are neither wanted nor respected? Only Christ had the discipline not to respond when punches were thrown.

Alan
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post #6 of 279 Old 09-11-2005, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJF
I think it's really sad that battle lines have been drawn between DIY'ers and pros on this forum .
The pro community DOES offer assistance to DIYs regularly.

There are a ton of pros here handing out tons of advice that was gained from years of blood and sweat. Pros (including Alan, QQQ, and myself) are regular contributors here as well as on the *other* DIY form geared toward remotes.

But at the end of the month we still have businesses to run and bills to pay, and many DIYs seem to have the belief that it is CRIMINAL that we make money by selling electronics and installation for more than our sheet cost...

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post #7 of 279 Old 09-11-2005, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinemascope
many DIYs seem to have the belief that it is CRIMINAL that we make money by selling electrnocs and installation for more than our sheet cost...
Interesting, but what prompted AJF's comment was the obvious chip on Alan's shoulder.

I came to this forum as a hybrid DIY/dealer customer. I will probably have a dealer do most of the work. I got labeled and attacked as a DIY'er because I questioned profit margins to find out what the norm was. Dealers took a very defensive stance, obviously feeling attacked by that.

It seems to me that the dealers are creating their own problems. If you are in the business to make money, why are you volunteering your time on a free forum and then getting bitter about it?

Either don't volunteer or don't be bitter!

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post #8 of 279 Old 09-11-2005, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiblesolutions
... Why stay and play where you are neither wanted nor respected? ...
So not true. I'm guessing that any diy'er with enough interest to haunt these boards probably wishes he had your job (myself included). I personally have tremendous respect for the "pros" and feel giddy when I actually know the answer to a question and can help someone out. If I didn't have so many years of education invested in my profession, I would love to take a swing at it. I can guarantee that the CEDIA Expo is a hell of a lot more fun than the "American Association of Physicists in Medicine Annual Meeting" :)

I'm not sure what the industry is predicting for future growth, but my feeling is that it's going to be huge. 5 years ago, you never, never, heard about home automation/distribution systems, but I can't watch the HGTV or DIY channel for an hour without seeing a touch-panel! I think the "pros" will be very busy in the years to come. When I think of how many of my friends would actually have a snowball's chance of successfully installing even a network router.... yes very busy indeed.

So, there's going to be a greatly growing number of people with the "means" but without the ability that will be the fodder for the pros. However, there is also going to be a growing number of true "techies" who will be interested in home integration. It will be up to the "pros" to figure out how they can make money on those people as well. Perhaps it will be hybrid diy/pro systems, perhaps it will be retail stores for diy equipment. Who knows.

The true hobbyist (among whom I include myself) does all of this for fun. It would likely be cheaper to just pay to install a system than to make all of the mistakes I have made and will make in the future. Nevertheless, that would be like buying a waverunner and then not being able to ride it.

Someone open a store in my town selling home automation gear and I'll make you very very rich ! :)

My 2c
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post #9 of 279 Old 09-11-2005, 04:21 AM
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Any more info or opinions on the Crestron system, or is this going to degrade into Dealer vs. DIY :) ?

I'd be particularly interested in how this compares to Control4 from an overall functionality point of view since I have minimal exposure to Crestron systems.
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post #10 of 279 Old 09-11-2005, 10:31 AM
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If you've read the press release, then you know as much about the new Adagio line as anyone else here.

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post #11 of 279 Old 09-11-2005, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AI Limited
I came to this forum as a hybrid DIY/dealer customer. I will probably have a dealer do most of the work. I got labeled and attacked as a DIY'er because I questioned profit margins to find out what the norm was. Dealers took a very defensive stance, obviously feeling attacked by that.
NO! That's a lie. Here's the thread, for those that care to read it. The response you got was from DIY'ers (such as myself) that were put off by your arrogance and rudeness, and unwillingness or inability to supply details. Also your inability to accept that a contractor might make part of his profit by marking up parts (just like auto mechanics).

When we said that a whole-house control system ("50-75 loads" is as detailed as you ever got) in new construction was not something we'd recommend as a DIY project, you got insulting.

We didn't say that it would be a rare builder (or inspector) indeed that permitted the buyer (especially an unlicensed one) to install his own electrical during construction, but if you're as smart as you claim to be, you'd have figured that out. The fact is, you are not a DIY'er, you're simply trying to leverage the suggestion that you might be to justify being pissed off at having to pay a parts markup. Don't life just suck. :rolleyes:

Well, don't take it out on the pros here who are giving you something for free. Just accept it and move along.

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post #12 of 279 Old 09-11-2005, 02:40 PM
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Adagio sounds cool...and sorry to hi-jack this thread but this needs to be said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMF
The response you got was from DIY'ers (such as myself) that were put off by your arrogance and rudeness, and unwillingness or inability to supply details.
Dude, you're the one thats arrogant and rude.

The other response was from Alan, whom I believe is a dealer. The only details I failed to provide are the ones you requested. Gee, I wonder why I didn't provide them to you?

Here's arrogant and rude for you: You obviously have a desperate need to fit in by fronting as a DIY'er then defending the pros. (Your profile says your interests are sex? How appropriately shallow of you).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMF
Also your inability to accept that a contractor might make part of his profit by marking up parts (just like auto mechanics).
You're not comprehending very well are you? It's amazing that I can even comprehend you and your sentence fragments. My inability to accept a contractor marking up parts... what? Turns you on? Makes you want to come out of the closet?

Let me spell it out for you. My question was what is the norm for this industry, not what is fair or not fair. The dealer I was speaking with was price gouging, many of the dealers here have quoted me at a much more reasonable price and therefore proven it to me, and no, I won't prove it to you just because you'll throw a tantrum if I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMF
When we said that a whole-house control system ("50-75 loads" is as detailed as you ever got) in new construction was not something we'd recommend as a DIY project, you got insulting.
We? No that was you, not "we"...and that was for lighting control, not whole-house control. I was insulted by YOUR arrogance and Alan's comment about doing things ass backwards. I never intended to do the lighting myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMF
We didn't say that it would be a rare builder (or inspector) indeed that permitted the buyer (especially an unlicensed one) to install his own electrical during construction, but if you're as smart as you claim to be, you'd have figured that out.
Here you go with this "we" again. Stop trying to bring Alan into this. You are assuming I'm unlicensed, you are assuming I am using a builder or can't pass an inspection. You are the one claiming you're so smart. You are the one that still can't even write a grammatically correct sentence. There's a difference between stating I'm smart and stating I'm qualified, but I wouldn't expect you to know the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMF
The fact is, you are not a DIY'er, you're simply trying to leverage the suggestion that you might be to justify being pissed off at having to pay a parts markup. Don't life just suck. :rolleyes:
You are assuming I am not a DIY'er. You know nothing about me. I don't need to justify being pissed off to you or anyone else for that matter, you're the one so desperately seeking the justification...and why would I be pissed off about having to pay a parts markup, especially when I'm not paying a parts markup?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMF
Well, don't take it out on the pros here who are giving you something for free. Just accept it and move along.
I'm not taking anything out on the pros here. I'll probably be giving some of my business to some of the pros here - the ones that truly have helped rather than whining about not having enough detail, or complained about the way I've gone about things.

It's the pros that are bitter about giving out advice that need to make peace with their own decisions. I'm just pointing out that they're the cause of their own problems, just like you are the cause of mine. Now go away.

AI Limited
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post #13 of 279 Old 09-11-2005, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshepherd
Any more info or opinions on the Crestron system, or is this going to degrade into Dealer vs. DIY :) ?

I'd be particularly interested in how this compares to Control4 from an overall functionality point of view since I have minimal exposure to Crestron systems.
I can give you this pro's opinion, take it with a grain of salt...

The number one difference between C4 and Crestron is that Crestron is a blue chip company in our industry with a strong legacy of leading the market by providing excellent products and excellent support.

The mention of the name Control4 may fill the masses with confidence someday... but as of now, they are still a struggling start up with supply chain and QC issues in the eyes of the pro community.

The whiz-bang nature of this or that product is essentially unimportant if the company itself is not stable.

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post #14 of 279 Old 09-11-2005, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJF
What do you think QQQ?
Very interesting. Waiting to see what the depth of its audio over IP capabilities are.

A few other comments on this thread:

1. There are a bunch of jerk dealers and DIYers on these boards and a bunch of good guy dealers and DIYers too. No need to create battle lines.

2. I'm not sure I agree with Alan on his initial point. It's the perogative of the dealer whether they provide software to the end user. In the case of Crestron it's too complicated for most (not all) end users so it's usually a moot issue. In the case of Adagio, I don't see any reason it can't be like Control4. I'm sure there will be dealers willing to provide whatever tools are necessary to the DIY Adagio client. BTW, just because there happens to be a few dealers on this board willing to sell Control4 to DIY and provide them the software (which is just fine by me) doesn't mean there aren'y even more that won't. Let's not start a myth here that Control4 dealers provide software to clients and Crestron dealers don't. It's the pergative of the dealer and besides, you'll see plenty of dealers selling both lines!
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post #15 of 279 Old 09-11-2005, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AI Limited
I got labeled and attacked as a DIY'er because I questioned profit margins to find out what the norm was. Dealers took a very defensive stance, obviously feeling attacked by that.
It is not any of your business what your dealer makes on the products he sells.

You don't know his rent, heat, lights, the cost to roll trucks everyday, payroll, benefits to his employees, the cost to carry the inventory in the back, the cost of the liability insurance to ensure that if one of his employees gets injured on your job that YOU are not liable... on and on...

We don't exactly have the secret on how to print money here... it's just another way to make a living.

Unless you are willing to consider the whole picture, don't ask about the numbers on the price sheet. If the products and services are not within your budget, or if they do not meet your expectations for the price asked of them, move on.

Quote:
Either don't volunteer or don't be bitter!
This site would have been pretty sparse without some of the pros that put a lot of this info at your fingertips.

Many of the pros have moved on, but their ideas are constantly regurgitated by the DIYs and enthusiasts that have learned from them.

Personally, I volunteer answers to help those who appreciate it, and I gt a lot of good odeas here from other pros as well as DIY/enthusiast types who are in other occupations and may have an additional perspective that can help me market my goods and services more effectively in my community.

We also have a lot of peope like Larry Fine, who offers up sage adivce on electrical issues, and dozens like him in virtually every field that throw in their .02.

Many at AVS do appreciate what we have to say, and I have many warm fuzzy thank yous in my PM inbox to that effect. THIS is the reason I contribute.

I like to think of those who attack my business model or my pricing are the same who argue with pre-teens on music sites regarding whether Britney or Jessica Simpson has the best voice...

You say don't volunteer or don't be bitter??
I say be gracious or be gone.

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post #16 of 279 Old 09-11-2005, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AI Limited
I'm not taking anything out on the pros here.
You can't even tell the truth about that! In this thread, a number of pros gave you an outstanding tutorial on the relative merits of various whole-house control systems. Yet now you choose to portray yourself as the victim of evil pros. Odd how your situation changes to fit the discussion.

As for knowing anything about you, that's your choice. We've certainly asked; there are 5-6 requests for more information in the two threads mentioned. Requests you've chosen to ignore. So don't blame people for making assumptions.

In any event, don't be surprised that people here stop taking you seriously. You've chosen not to present yourself seriously. Too bad.

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post #17 of 279 Old 09-11-2005, 06:47 PM
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Perhaps we should setup a separate thread for the DIY vs Pro debate, and then I can read threads that contain some useful information regarding Control4, Crestron, or the like without having to wade through 2 pages of us vs them....

DC
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post #18 of 279 Old 09-11-2005, 09:25 PM
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Perhaps I've missed something, but I've never portrayed myself as a "victim of evil pros". It is my business whether or not my dealer is taking advantage of me.

I have nothing against dealers, but it's apparent that some of them need to change their attitude. Say what you want about me, this is the internet and nothing any of you can say will hurt my feelings.

Be gracious or be gone? I'm very gracious of the help I've received, but don't expect me to roll over because a few of you are taking out your frustrations on me. Go kick your dog instead!

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post #19 of 279 Old 09-12-2005, 06:03 AM
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Rick, thanks for your perspective on C4 v. Crestron. There's definitely value in brand and reliability of the product.

Tom
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post #20 of 279 Old 09-12-2005, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinemascopetis
the cost of the liability insurance to ensure that if one of his employees gets injured on your job that YOU are not liable... on and on...
Actually here in NJ, the owner is the only liable party in an injury claim from an employee employed by your contractor. The employee cannot sue an employer in this state. The only way around this would be if you had the owner sign a contract that includes a properly written hold harmless agreement so that the contractors insurance company would pay for the owners legal fees to defend the lawsuit.
Just thought i would share that bit of legal advice with you.

And as far as the diy/pro debate, qqq is right, and for the most part the good guys far outnumber the bad guys,and i have recieved lots of help from the pros as well as conribute to the diy crowd. So lets end the debate and get along.

JOE
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post #21 of 279 Old 09-12-2005, 06:46 PM
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It is but a few individuals and not the many here who are rude. I meant to refer to no one individual in particular. My issues with Dave are that he felt he had the right and the knowledge to determine what the proper price and profits for his job. I spend countless hours developing and refining software. I spend even more unpaid time dealing with problems from cable and satellite companies, electronics manufacturers and my automation venders. I need to deal with arrogant decorators and Leona like clients. I also have to deal with many not so honest clients who feel because they are wealthier they can get away from paying their bills because it costs so much to sue. The fact remains that on this part of the forum that there is more resentment directed towards "pros" then on others. However none of us understands each other's business sufficiently to understand what one needs to charge to earn a sufficient net profit to exist. It hardly takes a brain surgeon to grasp the idea that small firms need to charge more than large discounters given the economic realities. But these large discounters can only sell commodities and they can sell them very well for very tight margins. Small firms have no such economic efficiencies to relay upon but they should provide significant value added in the form of test gear, know how and calibration equipment. A 50k surround system may sound very good out of the box. How much better will it sound if the room is treated, the speakers placed in the best possessions given that room's modes and if equalization is properly implemented? How much better will that equipment sound in that instance? Many pros consider it foolish for pros to participate on these sites for some of the reasons already provided. The fact is that few of you will ever be my or any other integrator's clients. Moreover, I will learn something form some of these posts or from some other pro/DIY. Antaltmike has often been very helpful to me on an other forum. Some of the networking chatter has been interesting and helpful for me.

Adagio is a very interesting product and it is perfect for those of you who went crazy for control4. It is inexpensive ( relatively ), expandable, includes am/fm and xm ( and serius on the card cage version ) as well as IPOD and cd server integration. It requires no programming knowledge and could easily be programmed by most of those participating here. For those who wish for more than an audio system they can add Crestron wired or wireless lighting and thermostats. Yet you can add any existing Crestron product to that system incuding every possible touch panel or relay box. The standard Adagio keypad is reasonably attractive and includes a LCD display. Moreover, this product is from the automation leader not a startup. I do not wish to be pejorative to C4 but it is a new company and one never knows which companies will or will not succeed. As I think C4 is destined for Walmart and Best Buy I doubt it is about to go out of business. But having dealers ( pros ) beta test your products is not quite the same as when the automation leader creates an affordable line of products.

The fact remains that you will the best products are often sold by the best dealers. They are rarely discounted for all sorts of reasons. Part of that is the return on investment that dealer has invested in becoming expert on installing that product. An other part is the fact that the best products, like Crestron, Lutron Homeworks, Krell electronics, B&W matrix or Meridian are not discounted. These are the best of the best and part of the way they prove that is to be expensive. Other, less rarified products are viewed as commodities and priced accordingly. Much of what I do seems so simple. Is it not always that way when a pro makes the difficult look simple. Cannot anyone run wire from point A to B? Cannot anyone mount a plasma bracket? Just like the rest of you, whether I invest time or money I expect a return on that investment. If I become expert or proficient at a task after some time and suffering I expect to make money for it. That includes mastering the software, the intricite of installing these systems, and the experience and knowledge to know how to trouble shoot and fix any problems.

Clearly, a product such as the Adagio will have fewer of these issues. But it has had none of the hysteria that accompanied the hype of C4. Why? I suspect because DIys hoped that C4 would be available direct to end user and Crestron will not. Any of you could install and program the Adagio. It is made by the best company in the world of automation so it will work and if it does not you will have a solid dealer base and a solid manufacturer behind it. Is it a commodity? Yes. Will it require some knowledge if something goes wrong? Of course. Which is why I would not object to purchasing it from a dealer. Why would I not want a dealer to help me if wished for thermostat or lighting integration? It will be easy but it will require software at that point. And here will spring the old resentments who resent paying the value added that purchasing from a dealer implies. But the fact is that you cannot purchase a Mercedes direct from Germany. On the other hand I don't have a monopoly on service that automobile dealers have to supplement their auto sales.

Alan
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When will the product be available? For those who attended CEDIA, could you see and touch it? Who has more details on pricing and how it compares to C4, both in equipment and estimated installation costs?
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post #23 of 279 Old 09-12-2005, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by audiblesolutions
It is but a few individuals and not the many here who are rude. I meant to refer to no one individual in particular. My issues with Dave are that he felt he had the right and the knowledge to determine what the proper price and profits for his job. I spend countless hours developing and refining software. I spend even more unpaid time dealing with problems from cable and satellite companies, electronics manufacturers and my automation venders. I need to deal with arrogant decorators and Leona like clients. I also have to deal with many not so honest clients who feel because they are wealthier they can get away from paying their bills because it costs so much to sue. The fact remains that on this part of the forum that there is more resentment directed towards "pros" then on others. However none of us understands each other's business sufficiently to understand what one needs to charge to earn a sufficient net profit to exist. It hardly takes a brain surgeon to grasp the idea that small firms need to charge more than large discounters given the economic realities. But these large discounters can only sell commodities and they can sell them very well for very tight margins. Small firms have no such economic efficiencies to relay upon but they should provide significant value added in the form of test gear, know how and calibration equipment. A 50k surround system may sound very good out of the box. How much better will it sound if the room is treated, the speakers placed in the best possessions given that room's modes and if equalization is properly implemented? How much better will that equipment sound in that instance? Many pros consider it foolish for pros to participate on these sites for some of the reasons already provided. The fact is that few of you will ever be my or any other integrator's clients. Moreover, I will learn something form some of these posts or from some other pro/DIY. Antaltmike has often been very helpful to me on an other forum. Some of the networking chatter has been interesting and helpful for me.

Adagio is a very interesting product and it is perfect for those of you who went crazy for control4. It is inexpensive ( relatively ), expandable, includes am/fm and xm ( and serius on the card cage version ) as well as IPOD and cd server integration. It requires no programming knowledge and could easily be programmed by most of those participating here. For those who wish for more than an audio system they can add Crestron wired or wireless lighting and thermostats. Yet you can add any existing Crestron product to that system incuding every possible touch panel or relay box. The standard Adagio keypad is reasonably attractive and includes a LCD display. Moreover, this product is from the automation leader not a startup. I do not wish to be pejorative to C4 but it is a new company and one never knows which companies will or will not succeed. As I think C4 is destined for Walmart and Best Buy I doubt it is about to go out of business. But having dealers ( pros ) beta test your products is not quite the same as when the automation leader creates an affordable line of products.

The fact remains that you will the best products are often sold by the best dealers. They are rarely discounted for all sorts of reasons. Part of that is the return on investment that dealer has invested in becoming expert on installing that product. An other part is the fact that the best products, like Crestron, Lutron Homeworks, Krell electronics, B&W matrix or Meridian are not discounted. These are the best of the best and part of the way they prove that is to be expensive. Other, less rarified products are viewed as commodities and priced accordingly. Much of what I do seems so simple. Is it not always that way when a pro makes the difficult look simple. Cannot anyone run wire from point A to B? Cannot anyone mount a plasma bracket? Just like the rest of you, whether I invest time or money I expect a return on that investment. If I become expert or proficient at a task after some time and suffering I expect to make money for it. That includes mastering the software, the intricite of installing these systems, and the experience and knowledge to know how to trouble shoot and fix any problems.

Clearly, a product such as the Adagio will have fewer of these issues. But it has had none of the hysteria that accompanied the hype of C4. Why? I suspect because DIys hoped that C4 would be available direct to end user and Crestron will not. Any of you could install and program the Adagio. It is made by the best company in the world of automation so it will work and if it does not you will have a solid dealer base and a solid manufacturer behind it. Is it a commodity? Yes. Will it require some knowledge if something goes wrong? Of course. Which is why I would not object to purchasing it from a dealer. Why would I not want a dealer to help me if wished for thermostat or lighting integration? It will be easy but it will require software at that point. And here will spring the old resentments who resent paying the value added that purchasing from a dealer implies. But the fact is that you cannot purchase a Mercedes direct from Germany. On the other hand I don't have a monopoly on service that automobile dealers have to supplement their auto sales.

Alan
I disagree.
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post #24 of 279 Old 09-12-2005, 09:36 PM
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I wish I knew the latin for pompous ass's windbag punctured.

" When will the product be available? For those who attended CEDIA, could you see and touch it? Who has more details on pricing and how it compares to C4, both in equipment and estimated installation costs? "

Adagio is real. Product was on display and functional. Wireless lighting was on display and functional. Wireless Thermostats were not. New TPS-4L, replacement for CT-1000 now supports graphics including png and jpeg. Release date was announced but I must apologize for having forgotten. Solid feel to the products save for the IPOD interface which used a standard Apple docking station. That will not remain as was shown at CEDIA.

Adagio basic (not the card cage see above ) w. am/fm/xm 2400
IPOD interface including docking station and 8 ft interface cable and breakout box ( balanced audio via CAT5, unbalanced audio, Ethernet, and VGA ) 800.00

CD server OEM'ed from........
single zone 2400
2 steams ?
4 steams 5500(?)

No programming necessary-- check that programmed via front panel LCD and push buttons. No computer or programming knowledge necessary. Auto discovery for IPOD and CD server.
Built in 2 series processor, Cresnet and Ethernet, IR, DI/O, relay and serial ports.

As I wrote above retail for the above 4x6 system should be about $5500, excluding speakers and speaker and KP wiring.

Did I mention that there are a ton of products very close but not ready to ship that Crestron did not show? Unlike C4 they only showed what was ready to ship. Why do I think November - January or there abouts but I am not at all certain. I was told and it is "close" but I do not recall the exact time period. Might just one of those be Zigbee touch panels? Just a thought. No inside information but there is a reason they went ( like C4 ) with Zigbee and it was not low data rate devices like lighting dimmers and thermostats.

As for installation costs. Little programming. Run wire for speakers. Setup computer network. Wire and install keypads. Cost of wire and 1 days time to run KP and speaker lines. Are we including wiring and control of displays? Additional price to wire and progam touch panels ( not the LCD keypad ). I think that Adagio will cost as much or less than C4 to install. It will, based upon those products from C4 which I have touched, have superior fit and finish and it will be expandable into any Crestron wired or wireless device. I doubt C4 yet interfaces with an IPOD ( which is not big deal but it is unfortunately popular and most entry level products are responding to that demand ). Balanced audio from the IPOD interface? Not from C4. If you signed with me today for an install in 6 months the Adagio would be in your home.

Alan
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post #25 of 279 Old 09-12-2005, 10:02 PM
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My issues with Dave are that he felt he had the right and the knowledge to determine what the proper price and profits for his job.
I don't think that's the message I was sending at all. It was more like a question... like, "what is the proper price and profits for my job?", but not in that exact language. I certainly didn't know what was normal for the industry, nor do I really care about margins as much as whether or not the bottom line was fair. Clearly in my case the dealer was charging full MSRP or more while the exact same products were available for less. I'm ok with paying full MSRP if that's the way those products are sold, but most of the time, with careful spending practices, those products can be had for less.

Every consumer has the right to determine what the proper price and profit should be in their own minds for any type of contracted work they pay for. How else would a consumer ever come to the conclusion that he is getting treated fairly? We all have preconceived notions as to what is fair and what isn't regarding pricing, regardless of the product/industry.

Would you pay $50k for a Honda Civic? If you've never purchased a car before, wouldn't you find out if $50k for a Honda Civic was a fair price before purchasing?

AI Limited
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post #26 of 279 Old 09-12-2005, 10:09 PM
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pompous ass's windbag punctured
Glutorial Pompastico Aeolosacculus Punctorium

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post #27 of 279 Old 09-12-2005, 10:37 PM
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Dave:
Had you been as reasonable and reasoned in your thread I doubt I or anyone else would have had a problem. However, the analogy is wrong. Centralite is the Honda Civic and priced accordingly. Homeworks is the Mercedes and it is priced as such. Generally, there is a difference in dealers ( read better but you could chalk that up to arrogance on my part as I sell Homeworks but not Centralite ) and the better dealers are smarter and more knowledgable and expect to charge more. I promise you that if I install your satellite it will not be for 200 dollars. Doesn't mean you need my services for a satellite installation but you might be very happy to have my expertise and knowledge when planning or programming your home's lighting system. Then again, perhaps not. Experience, talent and knowledge are bankable commodities.

That is what ought to make the Adagio so fascinating to the DIY or enthusiast on a budget. While you can still run into a system that is expensive I think this is a new price point from the automation leader. This is not C4 we are speaking of here but the leading control system company in the industry. Moreover, they have removed the programming line item. You can program this puppy yourselves and I would happily sell the system to an end user as such. This does not mean I would not sell it at MSRP even if you found it on e-bay for less. I may give information away for free here but not if we are doing business.

Dean:
I never realized that a BSCS included latin. Or did you simply write a translation program?

Alan
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post #28 of 279 Old 09-12-2005, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiblesolutions
I doubt C4 yet interfaces with an IPOD ( which is not big deal but it is unfortunately popular and most entry level products are responding to that demand ). Balanced audio from the IPOD interface? Not from C4. If you signed with me today for an install in 6 months the Adagio would be in your home.

Alan
C4 can host music from an Ipod via USB on the MC or HTC, not sure if you can do it from a speaker point though. The only issue here is you must configure your IPOD to RIP CD's in MP3 format. The nice thing about this is you can see cover art on your touch panels. Sounds like Crestron is doing basic control. I am a new to this stuff so please correct me if anything is out of wack here.

Thanks for the info everyone! I have learned so much from this forum. Keep it up end the bickering…

Sean
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post #29 of 279 Old 09-12-2005, 11:38 PM
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Actually full control, including clip art. New panels now require Ethernet as well as cresnet. The problem with Cresnet is that it's 38400 bps. That is fast enough for control signals, indirect text and analog values but hardly sufficient for graphics. That was one of the issues we faced with getting to clip art on panels that did not support video. The additional Ethernet connection solves that issue. Crestron's interface includes anything ITunes can do, including cover art. Complete bidirectional communications and a click wheel ( how successful they were here I really did not test. It did work but I cannot claim it was as successful as what you get with ITunes. ) Crestron's connection to IPOD is....... via NIC. The IPOD can be located anywhere. The CEN-IPOD is a breakout box that will send balanced audio back to the Adagio while sending info directly to the TP over the network.

Alan
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post #30 of 279 Old 09-13-2005, 09:00 AM
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What else is needed for lighting control ? And what is the MSRP of the dimmers and KPs ?
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