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post #181 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by BritOverseas
Whoah there tiger, no offense meant, I was merely asking.

Yes, as a whole technicians have better educations and their renumeration should be higher, and NO electricians are NOT all created equal.. There is no way I could employ an electrician that trained on LV and "home" electrical systems to do what we do. They have neither the training OR the qualifications to do large drives, power generation plants or such systems, my customers would never let me employ them, even if I wanted to.
I understand that completely. There are different rates for the different fields. Residential wiring is the lowest paid I think. Our guys are commercial/industrial and they are all journeymen. Some of these boys have worked on nuclear power plants as well as power generation plants. I think that's why they are a little left of center. ;)

I don't get into residential. Strictly an educational facility. Everything is piped. No free floating here.

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post #182 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ToddD
Yes a reset is in order.

I started out posting in this thread asking a question. WHY is it that we do this every 6 months or so. I did really want to find an answer to that question. Yesterday’s discussion I think has helped me to find that answer.
I do believe in the things that I posted about that the world has changed. I don’t think that this is a change that is coming as some of you seem to; I believe that the change is already here. But there was one flaw in my thinking. I concluded that you would look at the new world I see and would as I put it “have to change”. That’s where I was wrong. The point that I was making in describing this new world is that there is no place for what we think of as a CI today. I missed this important conclusion to that thought- WHY should any of you care about a world that has no place for you in it.
That is the key to the answer that I have been seeking. We go through this every 6 months or so because we represent 2 different ways of seeing the world. Just as a warm front and a cold front meeting leads to thunderstorms….so do these two viewpoints.

I am sure that there will be a number of what I’ll call persons of means that will continues to use the services you provide. Unlike some other posters here I’m not of the opinion that your services are inferior, or even overpriced. That’s not my issue. My issue is that they are not relevant to me and my world. I think that’s the OP’s issue as well. Something that the Op reported that his wife said struck a chord with me. She reportedly said that if they could not get up to turn off a light that something was wrong with them. That’s my view of the real world. It’s not that the CI systems and all of their attendant costs are overpriced; it’s that they are not valuable to “normal” families in the mainstream world. Yesterday we had a rather silly back and forth about security cameras. This I think highlights exactly what I am saying about value. I do not know a single family that has security cameras or even wants them. That’s the real world. There is no value there for the average person. But you don’t work for the average person. That is the disconnect.
There is a disconnect on both ends.

This is the reality of the world I deal with every day (i.e. helping people such as those mentioned in this article).
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-6...=zdfd.newsfeed

As far as your wifes comments about the lights, people made the same types of comments aboiut garage door openers when they first came out. Ditto on the remote control for the TV - after all, "how lazy can someone be that they can't get up and change the channel", right :)? I find that such comments are almost always made by someone that does not truly understand and/or has not been exposed to what they are commenting on. Have your wife be able to walk out of the house and press one button that turns ever light in the house off as she walks out and give her a bunch of similar other features and she will quickly find that something that was previously for "lazy people" is now an indispensable convienence.

Anyhow, my point is that now all of those things (garage door openers, remot controls) are mainstream. I expect a lot of what I do to become "more mainstream" (and it seems you do too), I just don't expect the high-end options to disappear or be any less relevant.
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post #183 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by BritOverseas
No, they are not, they are industry standard, look on any "job" website and you will see I am correct. We would get laughed at if we tried to charge double those rates, my original point about what I perceive as the high "cost" of installation of these systems.
I'll make sure to inform the engineers I work with that there is an industry standard for their rates and that they are all supposed to charge the same thing...and then I'll wait until they stop laughing. Sure, there are some loose industry "standards" for most industries...which also often vary by locale BTW. But there is always variance.

Do you think there is something wrong with having a wide variance of rates? Isn't that good??? Isn't that the free market at work??? Is it "bad" that a computer consultant that works out of his home and helps individuals and small business on small projects charges $75 per hour and another consultant that has managed to carve out a niche for himself or works for a big firm charges $250 per hour? Seems to me that's a great thing and the essence of the free market at work. Different people serving different markets. And if a person can't find someone that they think offers a rate they think is fair AND/OR are willing to, or have the means to pay, they can do the work themselves if they possess (or think they possess) the requisite skill.
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post #184 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by QQQ
I'll make sure to inform the engineers I work with that there is an industry standard for their rates and that they are all supposed to charge the same thing...and then I'll wait until they stop laughing. Sure, there are some loose industry "standards" for most industries...which also often vary by locale BTW. But there is always variance.

Do you think there is something wrong with having a wide variance of rates? Isn't that good??? Isn't that the free market at work??? Is it "bad" that a computer consultant that works out of his home and helps individuals and small business on small projects charges $75 per hour and another consultant that has managed to carve out a niche for himself or works for a big firm charges $250 per hour? Seems to me that's a great thing and the essence of the free market at work. Different people serving different markets.
Now you see, it is my words that are being twisted. I "said" I couldn't believe that I have to pay double what engineers in my field get paid to get a HA system installed. Nowhere did I say that they should have to "lower themselves" (God forbid!!) to be paid the same as we do. This is despite the fact that, "in my opinion" the work is less complicated and has less liability involved with it. There is a big difference between these two statements.

Maybe I should take BigPapa up on his suggestion and offer myself out at half of the rates shown here by others. Think I would get any takers or would it just be the people that are "too cheap" to get a "proper" installer in? Software is software you know, I am fluent in at least 10 different programming languages and an equal amount of graphics packages, not to mention being MCSE, MCSD and A+ certified, wouldn't take long to learn another one...

And, unless you work in my field I don't see how you can possibly comment on the pay structure. The competition to provide both systems AND manpower to commission those systems is very intense. The wages offered to nearly ALL in these fields, due to the competition are VERY similar in both structure and amount, almost a "cartel", if you please, or should I say "free market". It seems that because there is very little competition in the HA systems and installers (3 or 4 players?), they are allowed to charge whatever they please.

And you have also proved another point by your use of the word "Niche". Which, lets face it, is what we are talking about and is exactly why it is so expensive to get this work done by an installer.

"Joe Schmo", can not and will not pay those kind of rates, so it remains a niche market for the well off, until another "Henry Ford" comes along of course.

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post #185 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by BritOverseas
Now you see, it is my words that are being twisted.
It was not my intention to twist and I may have misintepreted. Can we start over? I will do my best to be cordial :).
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post #186 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 10:48 AM
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Sure, I'll wave a white flag too.

Seems to me us techie types have easily bruised egos, mine included (but don't tell anybody that, man has his rep to think about you know and apparently, mine is (a) hole).

"no, my electronics are better than yours"

"but mine are bigger"

Well maybe that one is not good. I like mine "smaller the better", my Wife thinks it is a fetish that I have, to buy ever smaller gadgets, she thinks that one day they will just cease to be.

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post #187 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 10:55 AM
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Getting back to more practical issues... how much do penis extensions actually cost?

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post #188 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean Roddey
Getting back to more practical issues... how much do penis extensions actually cost?

For the prossionally installed ones, about 100k ;) ;)

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post #189 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 10:59 AM
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I see there's still a coupla pot shots still being thrown from both sides, and QQQ is right, there is clearly a disconnect on both ends. I think the latest gem is the 3yr old kid who could give us a run for our money with two weeks training. :rolleyes: I know that wasn't directed at me. I know a lot of programmers and project managers who would fail miserably at being a technician.

The point is the this stuff costs a lot, but it somehow got to 'it costs too much,' with some value judgements and stereotypes thrown in. Then 'only rich people with penis extentions can afford it.' Whatever.

The point is it won't always cost a lot. There will still be exotic high end systems, but there will be a mass market for the lower end systems. There will be cameras in every house, that will be 'normal.' Thanks to the high end systems and penis extention crowd footing the bill to figure out how to make all the stuff work right, all you working Joe's will have a home automation system in your houses in 5 years or so. But it won't be a Microsoft PC that you purchase at Best Buy.

And in 5 years, I'll still be doing this stuff. Maybe I'll be doing C4 instead of Crestron or AMX, whatever. Maybe I'll be working in Average Joeville, whatever. The majority of people still won't be able to hook it all up and make it all work, or they could but they won't want to spend the time to do it. They'll still be hiring guys like me to make it happen. It's the same way with PC's; more and more people are able to pull it out of the box and get it working, but there's still 'computer guys' who'll do it for you, build you a PC, etc. But keep in mind that a home automation system is a little more difficult to do than getting a PC working, especially with the inconsistent CE electronic devices being sold that you have to integrate with.

There was nothing wrong with this thread, or stating that automation systems cost too much. Now we're at a point where it seems that 'our days are numbered,' and Microsoft will be the cause of our profession imploding. I totally disagree with that for reasons stated; I'll dispute and discuss all day, that's great and I'd love to talk about that in depth. But, I get the feeling that it's being propagated just to irritate us CI's, which while delivered politely, is still flaming none the less. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Comments about 3yr olds with 2 weeks training being able to do what I do... surely not directed at me, right? If so, have her wire your next 5.1 :p

Also Brit, the 'watch what you say' comment; I don't think was directed at you, but from a CI to another CI. Even if it was, I don't think your reaction to it was proportional to the intent of the statement. I think you should let that particular one go, don't let it get to you.

And if you do send your daughter to training, I might hire her as a programmer, once she's of legal working age of course.
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post #190 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean Roddey
Getting back to more practical issues... how much do penis extensions actually cost?
I wouldn't know, I've never had to use one. But if you're in need of one Dean, I try Google.
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post #191 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bigpapa
I think the latest gem is the 3yr old kid who could give us a run for our money with two weeks
I am sorry of you feel that my daughter is any threat to you, that is not what I meant. Although she does have a mean "screaming tantrum/crouching tiger" thing she uses now and then.

I was trying to point out that not everybody is computer illiterate to the brain dead level that is being implied by certain persons here (you NOT included).

I did not specifically mean SHE would be able to do your job with a couple of weeks training (I was merely trying to use her early computer use as an analogy).

What I was trying to get over was, that there are large proportion of younger people around nowadays that are HIGHLY computer literate and you could probably train a good proportion of them to do at least a portion of this work in a relevantly short period of time and that they should not be dismissed as mere "DIY'ers". Certain people however think that their whole customer base, is indeed, fairly stupid, my only point...

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post #192 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by bigpapa

Also Brit, the 'watch what you say' comment; I don't think was directed at you, but from a CI to another CI. Even if it was, I don't think your reaction to it was proportional to the intent of the statement. I think you should let that particular one go, don't let it get to you.

And if you do send your daughter to training, I might hire her as a programmer, once she's of legal working age of course.
Actually, it was directed at the OP, but that is neither here nor there.

Hell, you can have her now if you want. Long distance tantrum this morning as soon as she woke up, wanted to be a "Fairy" (she has many many dress up costumes), when Mom said no, Video Conference with blubbing Moms and Daughters ensues....

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post #193 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 11:54 AM
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....and that they should not be dismissed as mere "DIY'ers".
Hopefully you get the point that I don't dismiss DIY'ers. As a group, I'm glad they're here and find them capable. Their perspective is valued, IMO.

I agree that there's more computer literacy in the next generation, no doubt. But I'm not going to be out of a job anytime soon because of that. I'll bet I have more work over the next decade, purely because there will be an explosion of $20K home automation systems. If the wealthy quit buying $100K or $1M systems, I'll have somewhere to go get a job.

Maybe your daughter will hire me to pull all the cable for her automation jobs.

How big is a $1M penis extention?
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post #194 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bigpapa
Hopefully you get the point that I don't dismiss DIY'ers. As a group, I'm glad they're here and find them capable. Their perspective is valued, IMO.

I agree that there's more computer literacy in the next generation, no doubt.

I'll bet I have more work over the next decade, purely because there will be an explosion of $20K home automation systems.

How big is a $1M penis extention?
You seem to be more flexible and open to this theory than some of your brethren and when that happens, the least flexible ones are usually the ones to go under, look at the RIAA and their ilk, their time is numbered too.

How about we agree on this, IF you were near to me, I believe I would employ you to do my system for me (outrageous rates or no ;) ;) ), that fair enough?

Also, for those detractors out there, mine is already 20K+ for hardware, just don't see spending another 80+ on wiring and a few flat panels as "remotes", come on origami and UMPC's and let me program them myself.....

Now, IVB's set up, seems to be the right way to go for me....

And I would say for $1m, as big as you damn well like...

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post #195 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BritOverseas
I was trying to point out that not everybody is computer illiterate to the brain dead level that is being implied by certain persons here (you NOT included). .
SInce your comment is squarely aimed at me, I'll say I never said that either. I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth and making things up that I said.

Other than that, not one DIY here has commented on the points made in my original post. Yet you get a free pass to keep calling me out. Get a life.

Get a good deal on the Algorenet? Don't come crying to me when you need it fixed.
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post #196 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 03:28 PM
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I tried using Google but I can't find anything for penis reduction . ?
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post #197 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 03:33 PM
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SInce your comment is squarely aimed at me, I'll say I never said that either. I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth and making things up that I said.

Other than that, not one DIY here has commented on the points made in my original post. Yet you get a free pass to keep calling me out. Get a life.
I have a life, and in case you hadn't noticed, a "truce" had been declared from this ridiculous, prepubescent "flame war".

And as your memory from previous posts doesn't seem too great (remember, I re-posted all the things you said you "didn't say"), I believe that both AJF and Todd (both "DIY'ers" as you put it) both pulled you for your original comments, you should read what you write more often and see who posts to you....

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post #198 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by AJF
I tried using Google but I can't find anything for penis reduction . ?
Man, I looked too but I could not see the screen for my ego being in the way.

Search for "cold water" and "shrinkage"

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post #199 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 03:40 PM
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Thanks but I found it under "marriage" .
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post #200 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 03:42 PM
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That will do it too..

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post #201 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 07:40 PM
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Also, for those detractors out there, mine is already 20K+ for hardware, just don't see spending another 80+ on wiring and a few flat panels as "remotes", come on origami and UMPC's and let me program them myself.....
I'm suspect of your bid. For that kind of money, I wonder if you're getting the 15" TS's, which are notoriously overpriced.

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Now, IVB's set up, seems to be the right way to go for me....
It might be. He's the ideal DIY'er for CQC. But don't do it solely for saving a buck. Do it also for satisfaction, for the fun of it, and have a little patience. Do it to prove your CI detractors wrong.

But remember, when your out on the platform, you can't get it working if your wife calls and complains about the TV. Make sure you handle your family and keep it simple at first.
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post #202 of 206 Old 03-20-2006, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bigpapa
I wonder if you're getting the 15"...
Could we please move away from the penis talk and get back to home automation?
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post #203 of 206 Old 03-21-2006, 05:34 AM
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I'm suspect of your bid. For that kind of money, I wonder if you're getting the 15" TS's, which are notoriously overpriced.



It might be. He's the ideal DIY'er for CQC. But don't do it solely for saving a buck. Do it also for satisfaction, for the fun of it, and have a little patience. Do it to prove your CI detractors wrong.

But remember, when your out on the platform, you can't get it working if your wife calls and complains about the TV. Make sure you handle your family and keep it simple at first.
To be quite honest, I am not Ozzy Osbourne and his TC's, although they looked kind of cool, are way too big for me. If you look at my earlier posts, small is sexy as far as I am concerned when it comes to electronics. Therefore, if these UMPC's live up to anywhere near their hype, that is probably the way I will go.

And yes and no. It has a lot to do with making it "MY" system but it also has a lot to do with price. Both of my parents lived through WWII, suffered "rationing" for many years and that instilled a very acute sense of not wasting resources in them, this was passed on to me. I will not buy something "just" because it is less expensive (that is pure folly) but I will research everything and find the best value for money. Like I have tried to point out, I will not spend 10 times the money for a 10% increase in functionality "unless" in that 10% is a featurre I can not do without..

And it going wrong when I am away is no problem. I run a virtual network right now. Anywhere I am in the world with an internet connection (PITA with dial up of course but it works), I have full administrator access to all of my PC's in my house (with SSL security), my sisters PC (she is into sports and never was good with them, this way I avoid the tech support calls and just maintain the damn thing), and also my Dad's. I can connect up to 20 PC's to it so I don't think it will be a problem.

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post #204 of 206 Old 03-21-2006, 07:36 AM
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Actually, in this long thread about the high cost of Home Automation, there's been more talk about penises than Adaggio . Brit, are you aware that Crestron will soon (?) be coming out with a lower cost system called Adaggio ?
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post #205 of 206 Old 03-21-2006, 08:10 AM
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It has a lot to do with making it "MY" system but it also has a lot to do with price. Both of my parents lived through WWII, suffered "rationing" for many years and that instilled a very acute sense of not wasting resources in them, this was passed on to me.
I can understand and respect that. To contrast, my feeling is that time is money. That's not a cliche. My fiance, who grew up in a frugal environment, will spend a lot time to save a little $$. It's a constant clash that we've had to deal with.

To me, time is more valuable than money. You can make more and more money, but it's hard to get more time. To each their own. It's helpful, but it's hard to TS a system if it's not a software issue. Not trying to detract, but it's a possibility.

I know you can come in remotely and make changes to a system, that's a process I do all the time with remote code writers. That'll work most of the time.

I'm just trying to make the point so you make an informed decision. Really, capabilities aren't the issue. It's the process and your patience that is. You should probably talk to IVB and Dean directly if you want to move to CQC.

BTW, I'm dying to see what kind of GUI an industrial controls engineer/programmer would create.
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post #206 of 206 Old 03-21-2006, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ
Could we please move away from the penis talk and get back to home automation?
My GF said "Give me 10" and make it hurt BigPapa!"

So I nailed her twice and slapped her in the mouth.
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