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post #91 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by siegeld
Alan,

I really don't understand your agruments against turning over the code, I'm sorry. Could you please summarize? Is the issue primarily that you are afraid the code would be used in other people's systems?
1. Copywrites are involved with respect to some graphics and modules

2. On commercial jobs there is a specific line item for programming. On residiential jobs that line item would almost ensure that you would not get the job. On commercial jobs, there is an expectation that the code will be supplied and that it should be paid for.

3. More than simple code is involved. Providing a working system may have little to do with the code or it may have everything to do with the code. But in residential, the price is for a working system. I gave many examples of what, as a residential contractor clients demand and we run into. If your TV does not display a good picture from cable but does from every other source might the problem be the cable company's equipment and system? If it is and I must be involved am I permitted to bill for that time? What has this to do with software? If you are paying a flat fee for installation, including programming, that fee represents whatever it takes to make the system work. It does not reflect the price of software development.

4. Working code in residential often reflects many more hours of development then is reflected in the price the client pays.

5. We automation often deal with problems for which we have little or no control. We cannot tell the cable company to alter the firmware in their boxes. We cannot tell the electronics manufacturers to change thier firmware. We cannot ensure that any of the above will not change what they are doing or their protocol at any moment and force us, on the fly to deal with having to fix our code to suit these changed conditions. Lutron changes its serial protocol but never bothers to notify anyone. Working modules need to be reworked.

6. Keeping my work mine, unless I choose to release it as shareware. My position is that I have intellectual property issues, copywrite issues and price issues. If you state up front that you want the code and are willing to pay for it then you will get the code. In most commecial jobs graphics are pedestrian and code nothing special simply becuase the software will be released to the public ( which is how I would define providing it to an end user. )

7. Even stock code may require me to spend hours or tens of hours dealing with particular site conditions to make the system work or work the way you want it to work. That effort ought to remain propritary unless you are willing to pay the programmer for that development time. My experience is that on commerical projects that is expected and done. On residiential it is not.

AI Limited has written that he is willing to pay for development time a programmer puts into his system ( in theroy, at least and I shall take his word. ). But many of his posts above lead me to suspect that he, like many dealers, expects something for which he does not want to pay. If he does indeed pay a line item for the code then he or any other client ought to get it. But simply by contracting for an installed system you would not be entitled to the source code because as AV Integrated wrote, " The graphics, macros, etc. are often written in house and take dozens or hundreds of hours to custom program and design. These costs are not passed onto a single client, and as such, are not the property of that end user."

Residential jobs are not specified by consultants and are not paid for with other people's money. They include a programming line item that is often substanial. Often more than the installation line item. Residiential jobs are paid for by your money and few would sign a contract with a company if they had to pay for the programming development costs. Hence the costs of program and GUI devlelopment are amortized over many jobs and what is provided is a working system. In essence the software development is subsidized by the equipment and installation costs. Often we will not be paid until all problems are resolved and those problems may have nothing to do with code but with equipment or systems with which we have not control. If the cable signal your cable company provides is low and your picture bad I may have to spend hours and hours fixing or attempting to fix what is not my responsibility. If once cable boxes had switched outlets but that feature is removed by the cable company I now need to come up with some other way to sync the boxes power status. That takes engineering time that I may not have expected and for which I did not bill and fow which I shall need to modify my code. In commerical this is not the case. I can try to ask for more money from the residential customer but few will pay for it assuming that they have a contract for a working system in their flat rate. Even if the problem is beyond my control it is assumed that is what the client is purchasing. That idea has an other side. That software is not part of the contract.

8. Commerical software development is a very large number where the developer's time is compensated so turning over the software is no issue--in many cases. I know of some accounting or business software packages where what is provided, however, is a program support and training. The source code remains with the developer. This seems more unusual but what is typical is that these software programs cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions.

Pay for the code if you want it. Otherwise, pay for it to be placed in escrow. Or accept that you have paid for a working system, not software to make that system work.

Dave, you've written many times that you have no issue with providing your code to clients. Consequently, I've asked for all of your modules. Yet I've yet to receive any of them. If you see your work as shareware why not publish all of your code and make it available to everyone, even contractors who are not your competitors? Unless someone is unclear about my position this is my final contribution to this thread. I cannot see as I can add to anything I have said.

Alan
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post #92 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 01:46 PM
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I've sent you if memory serves some Escient modules last year. That could have been Harvey but I remember it being you. Now Do I say come to me and I hand everything out freely. No. Have I posted modules and IR drivers made by me and the company I work for on the Yahoo group. Yes, many times.

Do I send modules back and fourth between other programmers. Yes Do I allocate time to answer every question on the Yahoo site. No. I just spent 3 hours with 8 other people going over 'stocks' and 'stock options' after watching 1 1/2 baseball games which started at 8am. Did I mention that we had ball practice Thurs, game on Friday, double today, game this Tues and Thurs. Time is valuable!

There are other things in life besides programming and watching my back, like going forward.

As you can see by the number of posts I have that I contribute without asking for anything in return. I picked up on person off of AVS that wanted a Xantech IR system he didn't want to wait for the shipping time from and online vender. That cost us money as we are not set up for a $125 sale. Don't even have price tages in our showroom nor a cash register.


Edited for just about every grammer error in the book
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post #93 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 02:30 PM
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IT SHOULD BE NOTED:

The client is not necessarily ENTITLED to the final raw programming code. This is entirely up to every single company that is dealt with. In the 3 different companies I have worked with, not one has had a defacto standard by which they hand over code.

But, some do, and when clients have done things like... move, we have sometimes given them the code and if the graphics were new, we might strip them away, or not. But, we would give them the panels so they could be able to take their work elsewhere.

It is NOT their entitlement though. Software in control systems IS licensed. You don't have to pay for software for that to be the case.

The issue seems to be that someone feels entitled to code, and the fact is that NOBODY is entitled to code. In both commercial jobs and residential jobs I have had to tell clients that they could not get the programming code for modification. I will HAPPILY provide fully compiled programming code that they can load, or have someone else load, so if there is a system failure, they can reload it (like Windows Operating Systems). But, the raw code?

This falls under very similar terms as a photographer who traditionally does NOT give a client the negatives from their wedding. Some do, most do not, many more have a 3 or 5 year waiting period, then may freely, or for a charge, give the couple their wedding negatives. This is beyond the comprehension of some people and some people just don't LIKE it. But, that doesn't make it wrong, or even an uncommon practice.

Dave - glad you are part of a firm that gives code away.

Would you feel the exact same way if you knew the modules you just wrote, and had never seen before were being taken by your client and were going directly to the competition? I know that would bug me a least a little bit. On the other hand, 90% of the touchpanels I have seen from other companies have been slightly LESS than generic. All Crestron modules and no creativity. Very sad.

FYI: I have some files up on the Yahoo groups as well. I freely ask, and when I have a decent macro that is asked for from a non-competitor, I am happy to provide it.

What would help cut down on this? If Crestron would get off their butts and write some more competitent macros that actually pertained to current product and needs.

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post #94 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 02:51 PM
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I'm sorry but since I'm a tech guy the 'give away' code does not apply in my view.

I'll share. Before we acquired the other Crestron dealer a few weeks ago the lead programmer and I would talk for hours every month or so. Sending each other 'stuff.'.

Each had something to bring to the table. Helped both of us.

Trust is a HUGE factor. The person handing us a check is trusting us. 99% of our clients trust us to take care of issues.

If a high customer % does not trust you then you have more issues than just 'giving away code'.
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post #95 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Richardson
I'm sorry but since I'm a tech guy the 'give away' code does not apply in my view.

I'll share. Before we acquired the other Crestron dealer a few weeks ago the lead programmer and I would talk for hours every month or so. Sending each other 'stuff.'.

Each had something to bring to the table. Helped both of us.

Trust is a HUGE factor. The person handing us a check is trusting us. 99% of our clients trust us to take care of issues.
"I'll share." This is my point in a nutshell. You made the decision. You were not compelled to share but decided to share. Does not everyone who participates regularly on some board? I also have published modules. I have written modules for manufacturers for free and granted them the right to post them on their web sites. I have emailed many modules to third parties although I prefer to provide code to pros or DIYs who participate on some board I participate. However, I've also chosen not to provide modules to certain individuals, often for reasons I could not delineate. However, the choice to share or not is still a choice. You and the other programmer choose to share code because it provided some mutual benefit. The infamous Kangis and I often share code and ideas. When you are a lone coder the opportunity to bounce ideas off of others has all sorts of benefits, including breaking habits of thought. I have had many kind folks provide help with modules I was writing or even provide me with code for some problem. Providing help is a choice each of us, pro or DIY, makes for different reasons.

AI Limited posted something I wrote from RC where I admitted to sharing code. If you volunteer your free time to a charity is that the same as being compelled to provide community service? No one is preventing you from sharing code with an other programmer or with a client. The issue is about the value of the code and about choice. Something that is free has no value. Something that has value has a price attached to it. The profit may not be pecuniary but some benefit will be accrued. I enjoy my participation on these boards. The banter, the exchange of ideas and information, and yes, the opportunity to learn. So there is a benefit I get from participating on a DIY board or some other than may have little or nothing to do with money. Unlike one individual who expects to gain business from his participation on this site ( though he claims it's just 5% of his gross ) I, and I think you, do not. I was grateful for the modules you provided. But they were also privately exchanged. My point is not that you are a hypocrite. To the contrary. But if your point is that your code has no real value post it all on the Yahoo site. Grant everyone access to it not just those with whom you choose to share it. Once the code leaves your hands and is in the possession of a client you loose the ability to control to whom it is given.

My clients choose me not the equipment I sell nor the salesmen who sold them. Providing my code to others will in all probability have no effect on my bottom line. Still I wish to keep control of that choice. And I do not wish to make my competitors lives easier unless they provide something in return. Should they provide it, and it need not be money, per se, I may very well provide it. The issue is choice, or control as well as the value of that code. Commercial jobs pay for the code which affirmatively acknowledges the value of the programmer in the job. Residential jobs do not. Residential jobs subsidize the true costs of the programming while in commercial they are paid for directly. If possessing the code has value to the end user he should pay for it. The fact is that most every client could afford it but like, anyone else, would prefer not to have to pay for it. Unlike commercial jobs it is his money that is paying for the job. Since it's my code I want to make the choice. I merely took your argument to its logical extreme. Would you post every .umc file in your user database for any anonymous user to have?

Alan
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post #96 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by audiblesolutions
...this is my final contribution to this thread.
Were you smiling when you wrote that? Cause I was smiling when I read it (i.e. I had a feeling you'd be back) :D.
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post #97 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 05:11 PM
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Alan

I'll post in a few days after thinking about this some more. Have other things to work on!
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post #98 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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As I have said before, licensing the code to a client for their own use on the single system that it was deployed on is not the same as making the code property of the client. I agree that the code should cost far more if it becomes the client's property and if the client can do whatever they want with it. If a client with such a restricted code license were to make the code shareware, etc - that would be a violation of the contract that you made with them, and you could seek damages.
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post #99 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by audiblesolutions
AI Limited posted something I wrote from RC where I admitted to sharing code. If you volunteer your free time to a charity is that the same as being compelled to provide community service? No one is preventing you from sharing code with an other programmer or with a client. The issue is about the value of the code and about choice. Something that is free has no value. Something that has value has a price attached to it. The profit may not be pecuniary but some benefit will be accrued. I enjoy my participation on these boards. The banter, the exchange of ideas and information, and yes, the opportunity to learn. So there is a benefit I get from participating on a DIY board or some other than may have little or nothing to do with money. Unlike one individual who expects to gain business from his participation on this site ( though he claims it's just 5% of his gross ) I, and I think you, do not. I was grateful for the modules you provided. But they were also privately exchanged. My point is not that you are a hypocrite. To the contrary. But if your point is that your code has no real value post it all on the Yahoo site. Grant everyone access to it not just those with whom you choose to share it. Once the code leaves your hands and is in the possession of a client you loose the ability to control to whom it is given.
Alan
I'll just remind you that what I said was not meant as a personal attack.

Certainly every quote I've received or asked about had a "programming" line item. If there were no line item, I'd be concerned that the dealer was intending on not providing the code and/or programming tools. This is entirely their right, but it's also my right to choose a dealer that will share these things.

IMHO, no dealer is obligated to sell/share the code with the end user, but as Mr. Dave R. so elequently pointed out, "Why not?". It doesn't appear to be hurting his business.

As a programmer, I kind of expect to see that line item, and as an Engineer, I kind of expect to see a design fee. I do however plan on negotiating out the design fee as I have taken the time to educate myself on the product to the point that I can design it myself.

This is just one end user's point of view. Take this info with a grain of salt or use it to your advantage the next time you're in front of a client trying to sell that $100k system.

Edit - How about those underlines?!?

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post #100 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 07:14 PM
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So is Crestron hostile to DIYers?

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post #101 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by AI Limited
As a programmer, I kind of expect to see that line item, and as an Engineer, I kind of expect to see a design fee. I do however plan on negotiating out the design fee as I have taken the time to educate myself on the product to the point that I can design it myself.
How do you intend to carry out that design and how do you intend to eliminate engineering? Do you intend to create engineering drawings for the system and submit them to people for proposal?
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post #102 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by audiblesolutions
"I'll share." This is my point in a nutshell. You made the decision. You were not compelled to share but decided to share. Does not everyone who participates regularly on some board? I also have published modules. I have written modules for manufacturers for free and granted them the right to post them on their web sites. I have emailed many modules to third parties although I prefer to provide code to pros or DIYs who participate on some board I participate. However, I've also chosen not to provide modules to certain individuals, often for reasons I could not delineate. However, the choice to share or not is still a choice. You and the other programmer choose to share code because it provided some mutual benefit. The infamous Kangis and I often share code and ideas. When you are a lone coder the opportunity to bounce ideas off of others has all sorts of benefits, including breaking habits of thought. I have had many kind folks provide help with modules I was writing or even provide me with code for some problem. Providing help is a choice each of us, pro or DIY, makes for different reasons.

AI Limited posted something I wrote from RC where I admitted to sharing code. If you volunteer your free time to a charity is that the same as being compelled to provide community service? No one is preventing you from sharing code with an other programmer or with a client. The issue is about the value of the code and about choice. Something that is free has no value. Something that has value has a price attached to it. The profit may not be pecuniary but some benefit will be accrued. I enjoy my participation on these boards. The banter, the exchange of ideas and information, and yes, the opportunity to learn. So there is a benefit I get from participating on a DIY board or some other than may have little or nothing to do with money. Unlike one individual who expects to gain business from his participation on this site ( though he claims it's just 5% of his gross ) I, and I think you, do not. I was grateful for the modules you provided. But they were also privately exchanged. My point is not that you are a hypocrite. To the contrary. But if your point is that your code has no real value post it all on the Yahoo site. Grant everyone access to it not just those with whom you choose to share it. Once the code leaves your hands and is in the possession of a client you loose the ability to control to whom it is given.

My clients choose me not the equipment I sell nor the salesmen who sold them. Providing my code to others will in all probability have no effect on my bottom line. Still I wish to keep control of that choice. And I do not wish to make my competitors lives easier unless they provide something in return. Should they provide it, and it need not be money, per se, I may very well provide it. The issue is choice, or control as well as the value of that code. Commercial jobs pay for the code which affirmatively acknowledges the value of the programmer in the job. Residential jobs do not. Residential jobs subsidize the true costs of the programming while in commercial they are paid for directly. If possessing the code has value to the end user he should pay for it. The fact is that most every client could afford it but like, anyone else, would prefer not to have to pay for it. Unlike commercial jobs it is his money that is paying for the job. Since it's my code I want to make the choice. I merely took your argument to its logical extreme. Would you post every .umc file in your user database for any anonymous user to have?

Alan
It's not always about money. Sometimes we just have to deal with the devil to get what we would like. ;) Oh, and then there's the pride thing.

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PS I do like the code in escrow thing

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post #103 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 09:55 PM
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I dunno if the systems you guys use allow for it, but the way it works in the software world is, for the truly general stuff, that you developed and own, you deliver it in binary form with black box documentation on how to use it. You deliver the stuff that was commissioned, i.e. done for the specific job, in source code form.

That way, you can make use of the nice reusable stuff you've developed, and they can continue to make use of it since it's documented, but cannot see the source code. That doesn't necesarily make it unstealable by a competitor, but it's a lot less useful to them if they have to just use it as is, and it also makes it easy to prove they are using your stuff since they can't take the source, do a big search and replace to rename everything slightly, swizzle it a bit, and rebuild it to hide the fact. So you could have an easier time in court if it came to it.

I guess, according to what kind of code it is, if the customer has a big enough wad, you'll give them the code to get the business. But but if the accumulated code is your product or a major part of your proprietary advantage, no amount of bucks would make it worth the risk of letting it out in the open.

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post #104 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Dean Roddey
I dunno if the systems you guys use allow for it, but the way it works in the software world is, for the truly general stuff, that you developed and own, you deliver it in binary form with black box documentation on how to use it. You deliver the stuff that was commissioned, i.e. done for the specific job, in source code form.

That way, you can make use of the nice reusable stuff you've developed, and they can continue to make use of it since it's documented, but cannot see the source code. That doesn't necesarily make it unstealable by a competitor, but it's a lot less useful to them if they have to just use it as is, and it also makes it easy to prove they are using your stuff since they can't take the source, do a big search and replace to rename everything slightly, swizzle it a bit, and rebuild it to hide the fact. So you could have an easier time in court if it came to it.

I guess, according to what kind of code it is, if the customer has a big enough wad, you'll give them the code to get the business. But but if the accumulated code is your product or a major part of your proprietary advantage, no amount of bucks would make it worth the risk of letting it out in the open.
Dean, unfortunately that is not possible. If it WERE - I would be much more open to the idea of giving every client their program files right away.

Graphics that I put into a touchpanel would be embedded in the panel. They could be used elsewhere in that panel, but could NOT be exported or manipulated or really edited at all.

Program modules that I have written are locked into that client's program and can't be removed or installed into another program at all. But, can be used/copied within the same program if wanted.

Yes, that would protect the client entirely and give companies some assurance that their very expensive proprietary code was protected from unfair use, while giving client's the peace of mind to know they will always have the code when they need it.

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post #105 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by AI Limited
So is Crestron hostile to DIYers?
I would say yes. But, I would say that many companies are no better.
If you are a Crestron consumer who has a working system and a real hardware issue, then they may help you, but more often than not, they expect calls from dealers, not DIYers.

I've never been on the DIY side with Crestron.

BUT: The Yahoo forums are excellent and there are good tutorials and information out there for those who actually give a damn about learning it themselves. Software is easy enough to come by - just ask someone who deals Crestron you'll probably get it.

So, while you may not get much support directly from Crestron on dealing with Crestron. You can get lots of help elsewhere. Ever try calling Microsoft when you have a Windows issue? ;)

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post #106 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 10:37 PM
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How do you intend to carry out that design and how do you intend to eliminate engineering? Do you intend to create engineering drawings for the system and submit them to people for proposal?
I suppose that is one way. I don't have the Crestron design tools, but I'm pretty sure I could use Visio to get the point across... or Autodesk Building Systems (I'm on 2004)...


...or I could just find a dealer willing to sell me the equipment, do my own pre-wire (including conduit), and hire a CAIP...

...or I could just find a dealer that doesn't charge for their design, many don't...

There are lot's of ways...

Keep in mind, while I'm all in favor of purchasing Crestron through a legitimate channel, I'm a "piecemeal" guy... not the guy who will throw $100k at a solution all at once but a guy that will spend $10k at a time, sometimes exceeding the $100k, to get what I want... that's why I'm looking at Adagio. I can grow. Get the basic dist. audio in first, add a CP2 or better later...you get the idea.

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post #107 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 10:48 PM
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Well, if you're just telling someone what you want, then you certainly don't need anyone to engineer anything for you and I wouldn't have asked the question. I was responding to this statement which seemed to suggest a different scenario, otherwise I'm not sure why you'd expect to see a design fee and then negotiate it out.
Quote:
...as an Engineer, I kind of expect to see a design fee. I do however plan on negotiating out the design fee as I have taken the time to educate myself on the product to the point that I can design it myself.
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post #108 of 115 Old 04-29-2006, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by QQQ
Well, if you're just telling someone what you want, then you certainly don't need anyone to engineer anything for you and I wouldn't have asked the question. I was responding to this statement which seemed to suggest a different scenario, otherwise I'm not sure why you'd expect to see a design fee and then negotiate it out.
Well, I have a pretty strong understanding of what I'm looking for, but I've still come across Dealers that always charge a design fee regardless of what I know (some make it refundable at the end of the project).

So in summary, I don't necessarily "expect" it (maybe that was a poor choice of words) but if I were in the dealers shoes I'd certainly try to negotiate it in, so I kind of expect them to try.

AI Limited
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post #109 of 115 Old 04-30-2006, 06:05 AM
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We go by a simple philosophy - "If we cant make the customer happy then we don’t deserve to keep them".
Making customers happy is providing a good product and the product that we all sell is TIME$ - not Source Code. The customer is always the one to loose when a Crestron Developer withholds code. Why? Because the odds are very strong that the A/V Integrator (or freelance developer) will go out of business - look at the stats: A/V Integrators have an extremely high failure rate (No guys we are not Microsoft so we cant use that argument for protected source code).
We meet customers every day that don’t have the source code for their system and it's always an unhappy conversation - most don’t know to ask for it and some of our fellow coders forget to offer it.
"If you can’t keep your customer happy then you don’t deserve to keep them!".

Charge for your Code Time and Design Time and leave the source in the mailbox when your done.
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post #110 of 115 Old 04-30-2006, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVWorkz
We go by a simple philosophy - "If we cant make the customer happy then we don’t deserve to keep them".
Making customers happy is providing a good product and the product that we all sell is TIME$ - not Source Code. The customer is always the one to loose when a Crestron Developer withholds code. Why? Because the odds are very strong that the A/V Integrator (or freelance developer) will go out of business - look at the stats: A/V Integrators have an extremely high failure rate (No guys we are not Microsoft so we cant use that argument for protected source code).
We meet customers every day that don’t have the source code for their system and it's always an unhappy conversation - most don’t know to ask for it and some of our fellow coders forget to offer it.
"If you can’t keep your customer happy then you don’t deserve to keep them!".

Charge for your Code Time and Design Time and leave the source in the mailbox when your done.
Oh, lookie lookie a new forum member. welcome to the forum and thank you for your participation in this controversial subject. It's always nice to hear a fresh opinion.

Chip

Current owner of the last/best AmPro on the planet. The mighty 4600HD, and it's still running...better than Barco's, especially southern ones.
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post #111 of 115 Old 04-30-2006, 11:45 AM
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Now Chip go easy on him!

Are you trying to say we are an old broken record? :D
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post #112 of 115 Old 04-30-2006, 05:07 PM
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I have been a independent software developer for 15 years now. Billed per hour for most project over the years. In my space (application software) all jobs are custom and I don't sell a package (side note, I should have created one because there has been a great interest over the years but I would hate to sell it and I like billing per hour instead :D).

If the job is "custom" meaning you write it from scratch there is no reason the code is not the ownership of the user. The user should actually make sure they do own it because it is customized and if Im not involved in the future changes would be impossible for them.

If the job is simply installing "shrink rapped" packages then the code is not the ownership of the user because generally its an off the shelf package that any "industry developer" can modify or add to.

BOTH though have copywrite protection so I don't know why some on here post about not given the customer their custom code , like I said I'm in the business space and not a consumer space. Do people actually believe their "custom" home automation code is so good that someone else in that space would "rip" it off? Like a home owner even considers that or cares to get into the same space.

Business/consumers should and own the rights to their "Custom" solution because it is their ideas usually and we as developers are just executing the idea. That is the whole idea of a custom job in my space.

Another point, If you are labeling your work as "custom" but truely just taking the same code from client to client then you are ripping off the clients by making them believe it is custom. No one would do that though would they ;)

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post #113 of 115 Old 04-30-2006, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Richardson
Now Chip go easy on him!

Are you trying to say we are an old broken record? :D
Heck no. I want to make him feel comfortable here and come back to post on a regular basis.

Broken record, BROKEN RECORD. What's a record Oh you mean a-b repeat :p
My twelve year old has never seen vinal. My wife chucked my collection a long time ago. Boy was I pissed.

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post #114 of 115 Old 04-30-2006, 05:51 PM
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Hey Dave, something just clicked. Birmingham AL, Crestron, two integrators, one buyout. Hmm. Was the other programmer you 'shared' info with Brian? I (and others in this thread) know him from a different, registered, CI only forum. You should check it out. PM for more info.

As for the topic - each person needs to come to their own judgement. Remember that you cant go to a ferrari dealer and buy a chassis and motor and a crate of parts to build your own 430.

Get a good deal on the Algorenet? Don't come crying to me when you need it fixed.
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post #115 of 115 Old 04-30-2006, 05:58 PM
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