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post #61 of 73 Old 06-04-2006, 03:10 PM
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PremierHT,

I think IVB contributes to this forum, not detracts by pushing posters here to DIY. I just don't see it. I do think there are some DIY'ers here that are like that, but they are the minority. I understand your sensitivity to this issue, but I don't think IVB is the guy who you need to deal with.

Focus on penngray :D
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post #62 of 73 Old 06-04-2006, 03:16 PM
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Why bother to post if all you want to do is point out that your tiny url is really large?
Two LOL's and one snicker, just a tad shy of a full ROTFLMAO. I think Alan's had it, I hope he returns.
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post #63 of 73 Old 06-04-2006, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bigpapa
Metric;

You've been given good advice and and made your decision. It's not 'rocket science,' but that statement rankles the feathers of the guys who are actually trying to help you out; the guys who've had to get this stuff working at zero hour, rewriting 232 modules at 11PM at night because the job had to be done for an important meeting next day. Take our advice; after you budget how much time you think you need to get it done, add 25%, then double it. If you do get it done early, spend it hitting buttons and looking for bugs and have a few beers with your cohorts talking of starting up a CI company.

Contrary to the penngray school of instigation, there are other options outside of the ones stated and us CI's won't have our feelings hurt if you choose them. You asked for advice, we gave it, you made a choice, forum used for it's purpose. All good. Now we're interested in what you do, how it turned out, the good, the bad, the ugly. I promise not to 'told you so' if it turns out bad, and I promise to commend you if you pull it off.

We gave advice based mostly on our experiences, not on our brand loyalty or some other ego centric ignorance such as penngray would have you believe, as if he really believes some of the statements he makes. We don't think you're an idiot, quite the contrary; this is a difficult industry to deal with and Alan made the point that there's no standards. Your comment about 'rocket science' may make some CI's feel a little insulted, but I think it made you seem a little naive about our dysfunctional and eclectic industry. I think we had an impact on your decision; you're in for a ride, but you can do it. Give yourself some time and be prepared for some frustration.

It smarts a little when our advice and character are impugned by impliying that we're any one of the following; worried, greedy, arrogant, pumping artificial strengths, etc. Some know that and will give in to their sadistic impulses.

So good luck to you and tell us how things turn out, I really want to know and hope you can share your experiences with the next guy.
Well if 'CI's' are offended then they need to install thicker skin as my comments were not meant to offend, although when typed they were in defence of most 'CI's' suggesting that someone couldn't learn how or if they did it would be a cobbled together unstable solution.

I posted for advice on how to do this myself, I think I made that requirement pretty clear many times, apologies if I didn't.

I am extremely thankful for the help I received, after all, thats what this forum is supposed to be for, and I'm sorry but many threads do appear to be hijacked for peddling wares, however, it doesn't help me one bit to be pretty much labeled as inadequate and told I should just pay someone else to do it.

Oh, and no decisions have been made :)

I want to die in my sleep like grandpa... not kicking and screaming like the people in his car.
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post #64 of 73 Old 06-04-2006, 04:19 PM
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Can we go back on topic? Metric, what are you leaning towards? And is there a reason you are ruling Crestron and AMX out? I'm curious only because you have not responded to the comments that you could support those options in-house. How do you intend for users to control the system?
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post #65 of 73 Old 06-04-2006, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by QQQ
Can we go back on topic? Metric, what are you leaning towards? And is there a reason you are ruling Crestron and AMX out? I'm curious only because you have not responded to the comments that you could support those options in-house. How do you intend for users to control the system?
30 rooms. I could wait for Metric's reply, but where's the fun in that? How about some good ol' speculation...

30 projectors, at least capable of 1024x768. Input jacks on wall or under tables. 30 touchscreens or webpads, integrated with some type of controller platform, etc.

Or, we could ask what Metric is trying to do? Are these all conference rooms, classrooms, or some combo of both? What kinds of media are to be distributed in them? Are there any mics or sound reinforcement integrated in them?
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post #66 of 73 Old 06-04-2006, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bigpapa
Are these all conference rooms, classrooms, or some combo of both?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metric
It will be for board rooms yep
The original first post had more details. He needed to distribute the AV over CAT 5. That spec was apparently dictated to him. He wanted to be able to connect a device (laptop?) to the projector wirelessly. He listed just a two or three sources. Computer, SD cable box &??? nothing really out of the ordinary. He didn't mention, and I don't think anybody has asked about the sound reinforcement. Originally he was discussing Girder and Net Remote for control.

I'm not trying to talk for Metric, but If giving you some details to work with would get him some answers quicker...

Mike

An avid DIY'r and a proponent of Firewire
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post #67 of 73 Old 06-04-2006, 07:14 PM
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I read that post too but honestly it didn't tell me anywhere near enough.
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post #68 of 73 Old 06-04-2006, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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The rooms will vary, but some will be fairly small board rooms; my projector choice was limited for this reason.

The sound isn't to be anything too clever, basic stereo really.

The sources will be a cable box and video conf system.

The output doesn't have to be component but it looks like matrix switches are mostly of that ilk now... although the autopatch looks interesting, i haven't yet been able to find pricing.

The caballing will be installed with the rest of the offices cat5e.

Display devices will be a large LCD TV and a high lumen's projector.

I am looking a wijet to handle the wireless from the laptops to the projector (i don't need to present on the TV).

I want the ceiling flush electric projection screen to trigger when the projector comes on.

I want a device to be used as a remote (tablet or CE type device) and a small form factor PC handling serial commands to the devices (TV, Projector, lights, blinds etc).

Thats all I can think of right now...

I want to die in my sleep like grandpa... not kicking and screaming like the people in his car.
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post #69 of 73 Old 06-04-2006, 08:51 PM
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That's all good. I'll reply to most of your points in detail later after my yardwork and Costco run. I don't know of any wireless video that runs VGA; and I'm not familiar with Girder or Netremote.

Your talking about switching, yet I don't see a need for it with two local sources. What do you need switching for?

If it's just a boardroom or conference room that might be utilized with a conference system, then I'd seriously consider installing microphones in the larger rooms. If it's a large boardroom, then I'd consider adding a single channel mic for distribution to a conference system. You might not need this in every room, but it's nice for a few rooms where you have larger meetings. I'd design this into your package and only implement it with larger rooms.

But in the meantime, do you have any budget you're trying to work with?
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post #70 of 73 Old 06-05-2006, 01:03 AM
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The rooms will vary, but some will be fairly small board rooms; my projector choice was limited for this reason.
I'm pretty sure that you could use the same projector in all rooms. Also, you might be able to negotiate better prices if you commit to a closeout or spiff promoted projector. It will make mounting easier too since you only have one type of mounting plate and adapter to order.


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The sound isn't to be anything too clever, basic stereo really.
Do you really want to use stereo? I'm assuming you have small rooms where you might need only two speakers to larger rooms needing 4 or even 8, so you might consider 70v systems. You could find some modestly priced, and it would be easy to scale to each room. Again, using the same amp would lead to efficiency, so while it may seem to be overkill for rooms with 2 speakers, the ease of install and scaleability would more than make up for it.

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The sources will be a cable box and video conf system. The output doesn't have to be component but it looks like matrix switches are mostly of that ilk now... although the autopatch looks interesting, i haven't yet been able to find pricing.
I'm confused. This is only two sources, and the likelyhood is that you can them directly to the projector and have the projector switch the sources (audio too). Are you bringing in other sources from outside?
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Display devices will be a large LCD TV and a high lumen's projector.
What source goes to what display?

Quote:
I am looking a wijet to handle the wireless from the laptops to the projector (i don't need to present on the TV).
Show me too. I've not seen a wireless VGA or XGA transmitter. I've seen wireless component, but not HD and not that solid.

Quote:
I want the ceiling flush electric projection screen to trigger when the projector comes on.
Many modest priced projectors designed for fixed mount commercial/facility have triggers on them specifically for this. As for construction, you might want to sub out the installation of these screens as well as any modifications to TBar ceilings. Difficulty will depend on construction type, with wood being the easiest. If you have access and TBar ceilings, I'd poke your head up there and check it out.

Quote:
I want a device to be used as a remote (tablet or CE type device) and a small form factor PC handling serial commands to the devices (TV, Projector, lights, blinds etc).
Can't help you there except that you need something like a Grafik Eye (4 loads, 15 amps) plus an additional part called GRX-232 to interface with an automation system via 232. As for blinds, some just need relay control, and more advanced shade systems will have controllers with interfaces.

You probably should get an electrician to install the electrical and GrafiK Eye, or a least a decent facilities technician.

Another cool thing to do if you integrate a conference system to your projector, put a camera on the wall to the side of the screen and run the cabling to the conference system. Don't put the camera too close to the screen lest you get light blasted into it from the projector. This is really cool because people the other end will see all the attendees looking directly at them.
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post #71 of 73 Old 06-16-2006, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by audiblesolutions
Back on point. You can do this yourself. You can do this with CQC or with a product from the big boys or you can cobble together a set of equipment from diverse manufacturers such as Extron, Key Digital, Kramer, and various remotes or touch panels.

My point, perhaps not very well expressed, was that the product selection is not the whole story. Automation is a pain because no commmon standards are in use. Something as simple and inexpensive as discrete IR is often left off many device equipment. Serial protocols are often written by individuals who don't understand serial protocols. I am testing a serial protocol for a tuner that is not behaving in any way like the protocol describes and I'd bet it was written by someone with only hyper-terminal at his disposal. Cable boxes require rediculous amounts of time to integrate and once you find a soluton they change the box and you need to reinvent one. Directv has a new satellite IRD that must have the most sensitive IR receiver in history. It has resisted many attempts to capture it successfully. Last year we ran into a LG LCD ( about 47 of them ) that seemed to have a rear IR jack but it turned out to be a mislabeled TTL circuit. Codes that worked on last years model don't on this year's. Or my favorite, as it has consumed so many unpaid hours recently. Code works on a system that does not.(?) I need to send device X to analog value 2. I send that value and it tells me it has been set to 2. But no picture. I send it the value of 5 ( video on all wires ) and suddenly I have a picture. I just received 3/4 of a puch list. The logic has audio following video. In others words every route involves audio and video. But one wall plate routes video but not audio. Everything was tested but no attempt was made to force the switch at OS level or to quarry the device to see if it was indeed outputting audio.

My point was that a lot of things are easy until you run into a problem. Once I installed a phone system where all COs fuctioned fine until a conference call was made. Then lines 1 and 2 functioned fine. But 3,4,5,7,8,and 9 caused all kinds of feedback. I suspected that the problem was based on a gound loop or eddy current but I had no idea what to measure or how to solve the problem. The only thing I could prove was that it was not equipment based as the problem followed the wires not the equipment ports. Recently IT, whose department had responsibility for the project, has to provide me with external access via VPN to the LAN. The router continually rejected the password they supplied and they could not fix it. Finally he ( head of IT ) gave me his password on to the system. He would eventually get to the bottom of the problem. What of the casual individual who thinks he understands a network because he has installed lots of consumer routers? Suddenly UPN port forewarding stops working. What will he do? What if he does not know all of the possible commands you have in your bag of tricks and which are second nature? It is certainly not rocket science but you would be surprised how helpful experience can be when you have a problem. Experience and time spent fixing problems are directly related

My second point was that you had not yet investigaged the prepackaged systems form anyone else and sought to discover if they could be shoehorned into your system specification? Often development tools are not provided but many large corporate and education customer are granted access to the development tools. You might find that the solutions exist in hardware to do exactly what you want. Software tools exist that might just permit you to quickly program those systems. Then again you may reject them for any number of reasons, including inability to gain access to the development tools. But have you done all of your due dilligence before reaching your conclusion that CQC is the best tool for your job? What of Premise Systems? What of other third party solutions, such as those from Extron? How about a RF remote and a key Digital switcher?

Alan
Hi Alan,

How are things going? Good to see you over here expressing valid points.

Geoff B.
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post #72 of 73 Old 06-18-2006, 12:10 AM
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What of Premise Systems?
That decision at least has become easy now. Motorola kilt it.

Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems, Ltd

www.charmedquark.com

 

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post #73 of 73 Old 06-22-2006, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metric
The rooms will vary, but some will be fairly small board rooms; my projector choice was limited for this reason.

The sound isn't to be anything too clever, basic stereo really.

The sources will be a cable box and video conf system.

The output doesn't have to be component but it looks like matrix switches are mostly of that ilk now... although the autopatch looks interesting, i haven't yet been able to find pricing.

The caballing will be installed with the rest of the offices cat5e.

Display devices will be a large LCD TV and a high lumen's projector.

I am looking a wijet to handle the wireless from the laptops to the projector (i don't need to present on the TV).

I want the ceiling flush electric projection screen to trigger when the projector comes on.

I want a device to be used as a remote (tablet or CE type device) and a small form factor PC handling serial commands to the devices (TV, Projector, lights, blinds etc).

Thats all I can think of right now...
Are you going to show the same source on both displays or do you want the capability to show different sources on the different displays?

Matt D. Sherer CET, CTS-I,ISF-C
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