Future proof distribution planning - Page 3 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 89 Old 12-09-2007, 02:02 PM
Member
 
donmei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
While I dont think you can ever truly futureproof your house, this is what I've done. As a background, I am in the middle of a major renovation and all the walls are open.

My guiding philosophy is that wire is cheap, drill bits are cheap, and my time is "free".

With that said, I purchased 4 - 1000 ft boxes of cat5e, 1 box of cat6 and 3 boxes of RG6. Every room got 1 pull of this mass of wires into the place where a tv may or may not someday reside. The bulk of these cables will niver get terminated, but they are there if I need them. I also did several double cat 5e drops behind beds for nightstand phones. I did hdmi to the master bedroom. (I should have done it to the other bedrooms.

I also pulled a cat5e to wherever I will have my audio room controler (2 gang box). When pulling speaker wire, I went from the basement where my equipment will be THROUGH the controler box and then to the speakers. That way, I can work with an ip based system with the amp in the box, or a traditional russound type system with the amp in the basement.

In all, I'm not really sure how I want to power do things. Traditional, ip based, etc. But I've pulled so much freaking wire in my house that I know I'm ok.

one note is that most of my angst around wiring centers around the second floor of my home. 1st floor drops can be accomplished simply after the fact by dropping down from the wall into the unfinished basement. Thats not to say that I'm not wiring the first floor, just that I'm not worrying so much about it. The only wiring I've really made sure I've gotten right on the 1st floor is speaker wire, since this will be difficult to pull after the fact.

Don
donmei is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 89 Old 12-09-2007, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
kjgarrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Northwest Wisconsin
Posts: 2,243
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by donmei View Post

While I dont think you can ever truly futureproof your house, this is what I've done. As a background, I am in the middle of a major renovation and all the walls are open.

My guiding philosophy is that wire is cheap, drill bits are cheap, and my time is "free".

With that said, I purchased 4 - 1000 ft boxes of cat5e, 1 box of cat6 and 3 boxes of RG6. Every room got 1 pull of this mass of wires into the place where a tv may or may not someday reside. The bulk of these cables will niver get terminated, but they are there if I need them. I also did several double cat 5e drops behind beds for nightstand phones. I did hdmi to the master bedroom. (I should have done it to the other bedrooms.

I also pulled a cat5e to wherever I will have my audio room controler (2 gang box). When pulling speaker wire, I went from the basement where my equipment will be THROUGH the controler box and then to the speakers. That way, I can work with an ip based system with the amp in the box, or a traditional russound type system with the amp in the basement.

In all, I'm not really sure how I want to power do things. Traditional, ip based, etc. But I've pulled so much freaking wire in my house that I know I'm ok.

one note is that most of my angst around wiring centers around the second floor of my home. 1st floor drops can be accomplished simply after the fact by dropping down from the wall into the unfinished basement. Thats not to say that I'm not wiring the first floor, just that I'm not worrying so much about it. The only wiring I've really made sure I've gotten right on the 1st floor is speaker wire, since this will be difficult to pull after the fact.

Don

Honestly, this post just makes me want to go and build a house! It really does.
kjgarrison is offline  
post #63 of 89 Old 12-10-2007, 10:30 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:


Honestly, this post just makes me want to go and build a house! It really does.

Yes, I loved building my house last year. It is just 1000% easier.

I want to build every 5 years because if I can get cost + 10% everytime I only need 3 more builds!!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #64 of 89 Old 12-10-2007, 10:31 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:


one note is that most of my angst around wiring centers around the second floor of my home. 1st floor drops can be accomplished simply after the fact by dropping down from the wall into the unfinished basement. Thats not to say that I'm not wiring the first floor, just that I'm not worrying so much about it. The only wiring I've really made sure I've gotten right on the 1st floor is speaker wire, since this will be difficult to pull after the fact

PVC conduit in walls is VERY, VERY IMPORTANT. Its so easy to run future wire from floor to floor if this exists.

If I was to buy a pre-built house I would rip drywall out in every room and run all this stuff before I moved in, it would be messy but I would rather do it once then to do it bits and pieces later on.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #65 of 89 Old 12-10-2007, 12:09 PM
Newbie
 
jr43822's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Penngray, I would love to hear more detail about your setup with only the flatscreens in the rooms.

I will be in the market for buying a house in about 7-8 months and what I would love to have is a centralized server where all my DVD's have been placed (Video_TS) folders, along with all my pictures, music files (mp3, wma, etc.). What I would love to be able to do is to watch those DVD's from any PC or TV/Projector in the entire house and to be able for every separate TV/PC/Projector to be showing something different but all located on the server. So I could be watching 300 on the projector in the movie room or family room or whatever and my wife could be watching Must Love Dogs in the bedroom.

The same thing goes for Directv, although with that I would probably have to rent multiple receivers correct?

The one other thing that I would love is to have in-ceiling or in-wall speakers throughout the house and be able to select what is playing in what room. For example, I would like to listen to my MP3's on my server in random order while I'm taking a shower and maybe my wife would like to listen to all the MP3's we have by a certain artist at the same time in the kitchen.

Is this the kind of setup that you have? What's the difficulty in implementing and a ballpark price point on this setup? Just as a note, I'm 90% sure that we will be getting a house that's already built, probably one built new or built since 2000 as we both don't like old houses too much. I look forward to hearing more about your setup....this has been a fun thread to read.
jr43822 is offline  
post #66 of 89 Old 12-10-2007, 01:10 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
I would do some advance searches in this forum for my previous posts, I have posted my details in numerous threads.


It would be cool if AVS could have a User systems thread so we could post it once. Although, CQC has that already, Im just horrible at keeping it updated.

Quote:


What I would love to be able to do is to watch those DVD's from any PC or TV/Projector in the entire house and to be able for every separate TV/PC/Projector to be showing something different but all located on the server. So I could be watching 300 on the projector in the movie room or family room or whatever and my wife could be watching Must Love Dogs in the bedroom.

Like you my movies are in video_ts folders too. Currently I can only play one movie at a time since I only have one HTPC and only have a need for 1 movie at a time but if I was too add a second HTPC then I could do what you are describing. The movies reside on a network and each HTPC should be able to playback multiple files simultaneously. Network speeds better be good enough for multiple HTPCs. Other people have use Xboxes to playback movies in multiple rooms.

We share our Cable HD/DVR between all rooms from a centralized location. You would have to add a box for ever concurrent video need. IE. If you want to watch two different TV channels or two different recorded channels at once you need 2 boxes.

Quote:


The one other thing that I would love is to have in-ceiling or in-wall speakers throughout the house and be able to select what is playing in what room. For example, I would like to listen to my MP3's on my server in random order while I'm taking a shower and maybe my wife would like to listen to all the MP3's we have by a certain artist at the same time in the kitchen.

I have all my MP3s on the server too and I can create playlists as needed. I can play upto 4 different song simultaneously and send them too any zone. We have in-ceiling speakers everywhere. All rooms, back patio, master bathroom so the music can be sent to any one of those zones.

Mine is a DIY solution using...
- Extron video/audio switches from ebay
- 2 PCs (1 HTPC for movie playback, 1 CQC server which also does the music)
- CQC software ( charmedquark.com)
- 5 AVRs (I use receivers that accept digital audio because I switch digital audio throughout the house. This gives me full surround options on some rooms and just stereo in others. Russound, Nuvo solutions do not do 5.1 at all so if you want HT sound in some rooms you need a seperate design for it).
- 1 DVR, 3 HD cable boxes, 1 OTA HD/1 FTA box, 1 Xbox360 (HD-DVD drive).


Many others here have similar solutions. chamedquark.com forums have lots of user threads explaining everything they did and you can download all the templates you need to get up to speed quickly.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #67 of 89 Old 12-10-2007, 01:35 PM
Newbie
 
jr43822's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
penngray, thank you for the information. I'm also interested in hearing about your remote situation. I really know absolutely nothing about how to control this stuff. Do you use touchscreens or remote controls? If touchscreens, what's the brand/model out of curiosity. How are you running the IR to the equipment?
jr43822 is offline  
post #68 of 89 Old 12-10-2007, 05:20 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
I would suggest you start another thread for all these questions. I think the OP probably wants this to stay on future proofing topics.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #69 of 89 Old 12-13-2007, 10:19 AM
Member
 
bradengelmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Helen Township, MN
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenear View Post

First, what you were talking about in your original post to which I was replying was the idea of getting rid of the existing coax interface inside the home either on the television or the STB interfacing with either DBS or a cable feed and instead "plugging" content into your ethernet network. My response is no, it's not going to work because the bandwidth required to access all of the content simply isn't there in ANY structured twisted pair cable available today. So what's the alternative? Like I said, you interface with the provider's equipment instead.

If you've kept abreast of what the cable co's are doing right now, then I'm sure you have looked into the DOCSIS 3.0 platform that many are rolling out or planning to roll out quite soon. I believe the semiconductor industry has already designed chipsets to support clock rates of 1GHz on that platform. And I've read 3.0GHz has been tested in Israel earlier this year. Now maybe you can tell me how a 250 MHz UTP cable is going to support a 1-3 GHz application.



This makes me think we are talking about two different scenarios. Using STB's is a far cry from just plugging all of your TV's into an ethernet switch and surfing broadcast television.

You ask about 1-3 GHz bandwidth capability and suggest nothing I add now will suffice tomorrow. Check this out:

http://www.informationweek.com/showA...=David+Gardner

Further,

Check this out:

"Hi, yes, it'll work over coax when ready. 1394b - 800 Meg.second - is now coax-available. Just recently.
This will take a few months but it'll operate on RG6.


On 12/13/07 8:08 AM, "Brad Engelmann" wrote:

Hello, Sir.

I was referred to you by David Gardner of InfoWeek.

I am wondering about the new Firewire specification. Specifically, how can I run it over coax? David's article talks about how Firewire will be used over coax throughout homes connecting TVs and media servers. I am very interested in this because I am in the process of planning to rewire my house.

Will I be able to run Firewire over say, RG6 coax? Or what spec of coax are you talking about?

I appreciate your help.

Brad Engelmann
Glencoe, MN



----- Original Message ----
From: David Gardner
To: Brad Engelmann
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:02:37 AM
Subject: Re: new Firewire


brad
alas, I don't know, but you might try dick davies at ipra@comcast.net or ipra@mindspring.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Engelmann
Sent: Dec 13, 2007 10:35 AM
To: wdavidg@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: new Firewire

Hi Dave.

I saw your report on Firewire's latest developments. Thanks for that nice report.

Question: do you happen to know which specification of coax cable is needed to run Firewire? Are they talking about running Firewire over say, RG6?

If you know or can tell me who to contact to find out, I would really appreciate it. I happen to be in the process of making plans to do re-wiring in my house.

Thanks much.

Brad Engelmann
Glencoe, MN "

Looks like Firewire will be available over Coax RG6 and capable of the bandwidths you insist will be necessary.
bradengelmann is offline  
post #70 of 89 Old 12-13-2007, 10:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
robertmee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,002
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Goldenear said nothing about bandwidth over coax. He was referring to what's available on UTP and he was right. Your e-mail conversations and the link were about COAX which we all know is capable of carrying the bandwidth as our content providers (cable companies) already do this. The problem is encoding/decoding the video/audio into a format to get it onto this cable.

As for firewire itself, don't hold your breath. We've been promised FW nirvana for YEARS.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
robertmee is offline  
post #71 of 89 Old 12-13-2007, 11:41 AM
Member
 
goldenear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 164
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
LOL, robertmee pretty much summed it up. At this point, I really have no idea what you're trying to accomplish, Brad. You go from stripping all of the legacy interconnects (coax, composite, component, and now HDMI) from your televisions and instead equipping them with RJ45 jacks for interfacing with your Ethernet network to trying to spec IEEE1394 over coax. Like robertmee already said, you can't compare RG6 to cat(x) UTP. There is a big 'ole chunk of well protected copper inside that coax that is proving to be quite resilient in today's bandwidth hungry world.

No, the problem now is what do we do on the other side of that coax. If you really want to get right down to the heart of the problem for distributed A/V today, it's this: HDMI in one way or another is being forced upon us. Of course you will always have those who will argue that component is good enough well into the future. And to that I always respond with the following - (1) you'll lose your lossless audio with the hi def discs - this feature alone is worth moving to HDMI at least for me (2) although component is physically capable of 1920x1080p, I doubt that it will do 2560x1440 - mark my words, this rez will come to fruition because IMO (and many others') 1920x1080 is simply not enough for screens 46"+ (3) the image constraint token WILL be used in just a few years - I wonder if broadcast TV will follow suit in order to bypass Congress' kibosh of the broadcast flag.

So as far as I'm concerned HDMI will take over the A/V interconnect world fairly quickly. The problem is the company responsible for managing the interconnect has spec'd out a max bandwidth # (10.2 Gb/s) for which no one has any real physical interconnect cable of any reasonable length capable of supporting. Let's not even talk about baluns or matrix switching or distributed HDMI at this point. I'm talking about walking into your local B&M and picking up a 1-3m HDMI cable capable of handling 10.2 Gb/s TODAY. To my knowledge, no such interconnect cable exists, LOL! If no such cable to be used for localized connection exists today, cat6 UTP "officially" tops out at GigE, cat6+ "officially" tops out at less than 10.2 Gb/s, and we haven't even figured in the additional bandwidth required for 2560x1440!? yet, how the f*(@ is anyone supposed to be able to "future proof" a distributed A/V install based upon this spec?

You mention firewire. 1394 is, outside of a few niche markets, for all practical purposes a dead mass market interconnect. It did not displace SCSI as Apple intended it to. SAS and SATA are doing that. Firewire's big mass market success story has always been DV - real time xfer from DV cam to editing computer. IMO, DV is dead because AVC offers so many attractive features in its place - HD, H.264/MPEG-4, tapeless capture to HDD or solid state cards, etc. The mass migration from DV to AVCHD will all but kill firewire because USB 2.0 is good enough since you're just dumping files from cam to PC, not 1:1 capturing via 1394.
goldenear is offline  
post #72 of 89 Old 12-13-2007, 12:03 PM
Member
 
bradengelmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Helen Township, MN
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi. I certainly don't have the background knowledge that you do for all this stuff. I guess my point here has been that I am not going to try to accomplish things that others have tried to do with their setups. I am not running component cable or VGA cable or any of that stuff around my house. To me, that is ridiculous. I don't live in a house that is going to be flipped in five years. This house sits on an estate that has been in the family for nearly 100 years. We're not going anywhere.

We are ripping out the carpet upstairs and putting in wood floors. So this presents us with an opportunity to do some "future proofing."

Now I don't know what content will be available in the future and what kind of media will be necessary to deliver that content. It seems you have a much closer pulse to this stuff than do I. But common sense remains.

The NTSC standard stood in place for how long, 50 years? Do you really think the ATSC standard is going to be scrapped in five because you think TVs bigger than 46" can't aptly display the content?

Forgive me Sir but that sounds absolutely absurd. There are audiophiles and videophiles and I appreciate these people. But by and large, people are using standard def DVD players on their HD sets and few are complaining. Most don't know what Blu-ray or HD DVD is!

So to suggest that 1920x1080 will not be enough to me is just outside the bounds of common sense.

Now in the sense that I am preparing for the future, I do think RG6 will be good and plenty to distribute content to localized setups. I don't know if anybody is disputing this.

I am also running Cat6 - 550mhz - to each localized setup.

Call me crazy, but if Apple is marketing its Apple TV product over a draft 802.11n standard for HD viewing and they think that's enough, I am going to venture to guess that 250mhz theoretical throughput is going to be enough to stream tomorrow's HD content. Apple TV is hardly an ideal product - I think it is near worthless but not for reasons I am referring to here - but it's a start and I think we'll see media servers like this hit the market in the near future as people try to avoid localized setups. When this happens, I find it very hard to believe that they are all going to be demanding 10Gig Ethernet for our home networks!

As far as Firewire, most of your assertions are dead on. But that doesn't mean it can't come back. Before USB 2.0, Firewire WAS the standard for all DV. USB 2.0 has its limitations and still doesn't stack up to Firewire. I would use Firewire in a heartbeat over USB 2.0 for any data transfer. Mind you, we are talking about Firewire 400. This says nothing about Firewire 800 or the latest spec which was detailed in the report I posted here.

So say what you want, but Firewire can be capable of use for sending data over a network. This has been discussed in the past and perhaps it will come to fruition. I don't know. I thought it was relevant to post here, that's all. I'm not proclaiming to have a crystal ball.

In sum, I think the RG6 will serve me well into the future and the Cat6 will serve media into the future.

I think your predictions are just a little over the top. That's all. No offense, certainly.

Brad
bradengelmann is offline  
post #73 of 89 Old 12-13-2007, 01:00 PM
Member
 
goldenear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 164
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Brad, I don't disagree with anything that you just said. Yes, I am somewhat of an extremist - I admit that. But you must admit that you're posting in a thread titled "future proof distribution planning." I firmly believe everything I have written in this thread is definitely applicable in its context. No, I don't believe ATSC is going to go away. The higher rez stuff I believe will be limited initially in its application. Even today, 1080p is non-existent in broadcast media. All I'm saying is CE companies stay in business by forcing, ok, compelling us to purchase the latest and greatest. Where is there to go after you've got your 60" 1080p deep color plasma? The obvious choice is a higher rez, LOL. And the semiconductor industry is already cranking out the chipsets, LOL!

Regarding the required bandwidth, a lot of this discussion is confusing because we're referring to broadcast television in one sentence and then pick up with the high def disc formats in another. Look, broadcast TV is essentially limited to ~ 20Mb/s. So pushing that out over a 100Mb/s+ capable 802.11n spec is not out of the question. It's just that you started going in the direction of tuning broadcast TV over an ethernet network as opposed to using a provider's equipment interfaced with existing coax in the home. Well, AT&T's Uverse is essentially trying to do that over a DSL circuit and look at the limits that they've imposed on their subscribers in terms of concurrent HD content distributed throughout the home. So, they try to move to VDSL in order to alleviate some of the headache, but it's only going to go so far. Clearly, a lot of the story here is in the compression algorithms used. But when you're talking HDMI, then you're looking at TMDS and that is full bore.

Yes I'm rambling here, but my point is you can't escape the numbers game that you have to play once you go digital. The limits are very real and it's more of a brick wall than anything you're going to experience in the analog world. So in short here, I think the choices you've made are very good and you've done the best you can do today. Just realize that the cat 6 swept out to 550MHz probably will not pass all the credentials of a true 500 cat 6+ wire when considering such tested variables as alien crosstalk, insertion loss, etc.
goldenear is offline  
post #74 of 89 Old 12-13-2007, 01:11 PM
Member
 
goldenear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 164
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradengelmann View Post

I guess my point here has been that I am not going to try to accomplish things that others have tried to do with their setups. I am not running component cable or VGA cable or any of that stuff around my house. To me, that is ridiculous. I don't live in a house that is going to be flipped in five years. This house sits on an estate that has been in the family for nearly 100 years. We're not going anywhere.

I think others will chime in here and say because you plan on staying in the home forever, that is the biggest reason to pursue some type of distributed A/V if doing so would meet your needs or add value in some way. Basically, IOW, you're saying that you have no need to centralize your equipment. Fine, then you really have nothing to worry about IMO.
goldenear is offline  
post #75 of 89 Old 12-13-2007, 05:06 PM
Member
 
bradengelmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Helen Township, MN
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi goldenear. Let me preface first by saying this is the first thread I've posted on at the AVS Forums. I know THIS IS THE PLACE to discuss such things as everybody has pointed me to this website. So that's why I am here and I found this thread basically through a search and found its fundamental topics very relevant to me. I apologize to anybody here if I am wasting their time with my comments/arguments.

As far as your argument goes for 1080p not being enough and eventually we'll see higher rez, that may well be true. Although, I would put a strong bet on ATSC being maintained for television. Maybe movies and other non-television content will go higher rez; I could see that. But #1, broadcast networks are still scrambling to find the bandwidth to distribute signals far less than true 1080p, as you noted. So not only do they have to continue to roll out existing channels at existing rez, they'll eventually likely upgrade to 1080p (which makes sense to me). At the same time, the prevailing winds that I've endured suggest they have absolutely no plans to invest in sending content out at 1080p AT ANY TIME. Since it's in the ATSC standard and technology evolves, again it makes sense. But I just don't see the need to push further than that.

Then of course is the age-old argument of content makers and CE makers to change formats and push new tech on us simply to turn over their huge catalogs of movies and content to resell to us for more and more money. I mean, it's plainly obvious they intend to do this with the high def discs. So far, the public isn't buying it. Literally. As I said and I know you're full aware, most people are just "upconverting" their existing DVD collections and the vast majority of high-def TVs sold are still less than 1080p. I certainly won't make the mistake of buying a TV with less than that, but that's the current market, even though more and more the TVs indeed are 1080p.

Point is, first we have to get people to convert to high-def. Then we have to get them to convert to FULL high-def (1080p). We're at least two steps away from even considering the practicality of higher resolutions. I have few doubts there will be a market for fine tuning all of our new TVs to maximize their resolutions and varying resolution inputs (720p, 1080i, 480p, and on and on). And then 1080p.

And we argued earlier that it's entirely possible that these high-def physical discs won't gain traction. That's why I like the idea of having the Cat6 piped to my TVs so if I want, I can stream content downloaded over the Internet.

Obviously, there are challenges imposed by content providers to descramble all their signals. That's part of my rationale here because I am not going to play cat and mouse with these clowns.

On a small scale, I've already defeated these guys. Heck, I've been doing this since 2002. I run ReplayTVs (yeah, SD) with DVArchive and stream content around the house with shared DVRs and upload content to my computer for permanent storage and streaming (the computer can act as a ReplayTV). Point is, we (ReplayTV community) has descrambled their stuff and we are effectively hacking it and using it for whatever we want (burning if we so choose).

I think ultimately this is going to come down to digitally hacking the content and putting it into formats that we can stream around our houses over the LAN. As you say, the hurdles with all the restrictions is a major headache. How am I supposed to play guesswork with even the latest cables - HDMI - and hope those cables will do what I want even two years from now? I think it is pointless to fight that battle.

So if these guys - Directv, Dish, cable companies - want to scramble their content into my house, I have a pretty good feeling the open source community is going to crack that stuff and let me save it into whatever format I like, for streaming to whatever local setup I have. So while I will have local setups, they aren't isolated. They can accept A/V streams from media servers.

Which brings me further (feel free to stop reading if this is getting boring) to the media server issue. Guys like Apple with Apple TV and Netgear and Linksys - they're seeing these issues and seeing a market for people who store content on their computers and want to stream it around the house, not having to hold everything at every location. So I see quite sophisticated media servers coming onto the market in the near future. Will they have DRM restrictions? Probably. Can we hack them? Absolutely. Look at the Tivo community.

So one could argue that you're playing a cat and mouse game running every sort of cable imaginable, hoping to bridge all the pitfalls. But on the digital end, there's always the open source community ready to challenge these restrictions and make content fair use for us. That's what I'm betting on.

Maybe my dream will come true and Firewire will become a LAN standard. That was predicted when FW800 came out, it is being said now with this latest spec being announced. Anyhow, if it comes true, I'll have all the bandwidth I need with 1s and 0s traveling via Firewire over my RG6 coax. Who knows.

Bottom line, I want my setups to be "connected." Connected as in to the Internet and our LAN. We'll see what comes down the pike.

Good stuff here with your arguments and insight. I'm coming away from this thread learning a tremendous amount from you. So this is in good spirit. Thanks for looking at my short-sighted arguments (seriously, not sarcastic) and letting me know where I might be wrong.

Rewiring is scheduled to begin here next month, so still time to change my mind!
bradengelmann is offline  
post #76 of 89 Old 12-13-2007, 08:00 PM
Member
 
goldenear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 164
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Again, Brad, I agree with just about everything you're saying here. In fact, you're preaching to the choir, LOL. I've been an IT consultant since I was a junior in HS, so let's see...20 years! I got into structured cabling out of necessity (serving small businesses). So I'm right there with ya on this stuff. It's just that you're talking about the front end (interfacing various devices with content) while I'm talking about the back end (how to get that device interfaced to your display).

Since you don't need to centralize your equipment and distribute in the sense that most people here are talking about, then I wouldn't worry about any of this.
goldenear is offline  
post #77 of 89 Old 12-14-2007, 06:44 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Rewiring is scheduled to begin here next month, so still time to change my mind!

I would recommend you take some time and read up on how many of us centralize our equipment to maximize the benifits.

If you have the opportunity to re-wire and you have a budget that permits you to run mini-coax, several cat5e or cat6 runs then you really owe it to yourself and your AV distribution design to do it right.

Firewire will never be a standard, neither will anything Microsoft or Apple come up with other than single room options.

Right now full house distribution means component video (over coax or over ethernet), HDMI most likely is the future but right now full house HDMI is horrible and not a viable choice for many.

If someone is not distributing their video and audio properly by centralizing I really dont see why they even post in the A/V distribution forum

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #78 of 89 Old 12-14-2007, 06:49 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Which brings me further (feel free to stop reading if this is getting boring) to the media server issue. Guys like Apple with Apple TV and Netgear and Linksys - they're seeing these issues and seeing a market for people who store content on their computers and want to stream it around the house, not having to hold everything at every location. So I see quite sophisticated media servers coming onto the market in the near future. Will they have DRM restrictions? Probably. Can we hack them? Absolutely. Look at the Tivo community.

A more detailed point, Apple, Netgear and the rest have CRAPPY solutions right now. I have 300 DVDs on my network already, I have 15 HD movies now also. I have a HTPC to play them and I can play those movies in any room in my house. Dlink media servers SUCK, choppy, terrible functionality (similar to MCE) for full house automation.

IMO, the proper design is the design where we dont need "boxes" in any rooms. Just speakers and a TV and all content is sent to that room over ethernet or coax.

I dont need DVD players, HD DVD players, XBOX360, DVRs, cable boxes anywhere except my AV closet and I can SHARE and distribute those devices throughout my house.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #79 of 89 Old 12-14-2007, 08:18 AM
Member
 
bradengelmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Helen Township, MN
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
penngray:

You have my ears. The reason I am posting here is to learn. So far, I've learned a lot from this thread. Going back and forth with a couple members has made me think about a lot of things.

Suppose I do run component cables. Which ones do I run, exactly? When I think of "component" cables, I think of the three-pronged Monster cables I have connected from my DVD player to my WEGA TV. You said something about running component over coax. You mean a heavier coax? If so, which spec? What do most people do or what do you recommend? Are you suggesting that it isn't worth running HDMI? Isn't there a limit on distance for either of these? How do I solve that dilemma?

Sorry for all the questions but if you have the time and could succinctly answer them, I would really appreciate it. Or if you know of a resource that really explains this process very well, point me to it?

Thanks for your post.

Brad
bradengelmann is offline  
post #80 of 89 Old 12-14-2007, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
kjgarrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Northwest Wisconsin
Posts: 2,243
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by video321 View Post

The key piece to the puzzle is the matrix switcher by Autopatch, Extron, Shinybow, Neothings, etc. You can do a quick search in this forum and find lots of info. Prices all depend on how many ins/outs and bandwidth is required and will range from less than $200 to the thousands. Without this, centrally located equipment is futile.

If you're lucky you may be able to score a high-end switcher off ebay. However, that is more the exception than the rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

.... I have 300 DVDs on my network already, I have 15 HD movies now also. I have a HTPC to play them and I can play those movies in any room in my house. Dlink media servers SUCK, choppy, terrible functionality (similar to MCE) for full house automation.

IMO, the proper design is the design where we dont need "boxes" in any rooms. Just speakers and a TV and all content is sent to that room over ethernet or coax.

I dont need DVD players, HD DVD players, XBOX360, DVRs, cable boxes anywhere except my AV closet and I can SHARE and distribute those devices throughout my house.

penngray, do you have one of the matrix switchers video 321 is talking about? My understanding is the switcher would allow simultaneous viewing of any source from any location (within the constraints of I/O capacity of the switcher, that is.)

If you do, or even if you don't and/or video 321 is following the thread, I am wondering how control of the sources is accomplished.

Also, as a bit of a side note, when component is run over "mini coax", I can see the advantage with regards to cable size, but I'm wondering if the shielding and bandwidth performance is as effective as full size RG6.
kjgarrison is offline  
post #81 of 89 Old 12-14-2007, 03:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
robertmee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,002
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

penngray, do you have one of the matrix switchers video 321 is talking about? My understanding is the switcher would allow simultaneous viewing of any source from any location (within the constraints of I/O capacity of the switcher, that is.)

If you do, or even if you don't and/or video 321 is following the thread, I am wondering how control of the sources is accomplished.

Also, as a bit of a side note, when component is run over "mini coax", I can see the advantage with regards to cable size, but I'm wondering if the shielding and bandwidth performance is as effective as full size RG6.

For longer Component runs, RG6 is actually the wrong coax. If you search for component coax you'll get some good threads explaining the best uses of RG59, RG6, mini-coax, and various variations of shielding and copper centers that lend themselves best to component distribution.

As for the switcher, I have a similar setup as penngray. I use an Extron 200 matrix switcher coupled to CELabs RX/TX cat5e baluns. I run CQC also which serially controls the Extron switcher and the DVD changers attached to it. For the cable box, also attached to the switcher, I use IR. The CELabs baluns in addition to carrying component + analog, distribute IR also. So, I simply put an IR receiver next to the TV, plug it into the balun and then at the other end, the balun plugs into my IR distribution block which has all the mini-emitters attached to IR controlled equipment.

As for control, I use a Nokia 770 for walkaround control, touchscreens in the main viewing rooms, and regular old cable company IR remotes (the wife likes them). From the Nokia, you answer two questions: Where are you and what do you want to watch or listen to. CQC handles the rest, switching the inputs to outputs via the switcher, powering on the DVD player, launching the movie, etc. You can then use the regular dumb remote to change channels, control the DVD player, etc.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
robertmee is offline  
post #82 of 89 Old 12-15-2007, 06:17 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:


For longer Component runs, RG6 is actually the wrong coax. If you search for component coax you'll get some good threads explaining the best uses of RG59, RG6, mini-coax, and various variations of shielding and copper centers that lend themselves best to component distribution.

Performance varies, I have RG6 throughout my house and the master bedroom run is over 100 feet so I can confirm that RG6 works just fine in my house. I didnt run mini-coax though, I have 5 thick strands of RG6 to many rooms....real pain when all is bundled together in the closet!


Quote:


one of the matrix switchers video 321 is talking about?

I dont know what that switch is, I have used Autopatch and Extron matrix switches to control my sources and zones. All have worked great! The Autopatch is the most flexible but the hardest to find and it switched both HD video and digital audio, I ran out of space on it though I use a Extron 300 crosspoint now but they dont switch digital audio too well so I have a 2nd Extron 50 to do that. Anything that switches composite video will switch digital audio.


My matrix switch has a RS232 and I control it through a PC that runs CQC (charmedquark.com). Like Robert, I use Nokia 770 handhelds throughout my house to switch sources and change channels. Working on using a UMPC soon and Im also working on Getting my Harmony 880 remote to do more.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #83 of 89 Old 12-15-2007, 06:24 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:


Suppose I do run component cables. Which ones do I run, exactly? When I think of "component" cables, I think of the three-pronged Monster cables I have connected from my DVD player to my WEGA TV. You said something about running component over coax. You mean a heavier coax? If so, which spec? What do most people do or what do you recommend? Are you suggesting that it isn't worth running HDMI? Isn't there a limit on distance for either of these? How do I solve that dilemma?

Sorry for all the questions but if you have the time and could succinctly answer them, I would really appreciate it. Or if you know of a resource that really explains this process very well, point me to it?

Questions are great and we should ask as many as possible

I have to check my cable specs but others here can direct you to what cable to run if you want component over coax. Others just run cat5e and then buy component video baluns ( I have those too in some rooms) both are solid options for component video.

The reason Im against HDMI solutions right now is that they just dont work well and there ISN'T even a 8x8 HDMI switch worth considering. Full house HDMI solutions do exist but they are expensive and their failure rate currently is just too high to tolerate!

If I was building or remodelling today, I would consider the AVAtrix products which have nice wall plates and run over cat5e or cat6.

I have 30 coax cables running into my closet, its a pain to work with (IMO). For the same video solution, I could have 6 cat5e cables and 6 baluns and it would make it much easier to work with. Cost is a little more (3-5K) only because the AVAtrix products are not on ebay for $100-$700. Gotta love buying a $5K Extron switch on ebay for $400!!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #84 of 89 Old 12-15-2007, 06:26 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:


I think of the three-pronged Monster cables I have connected from my DVD player to my WEGA TV.

Dont get me started on Monster you should search monster on this forum. Most here know about monoprice.com and we now refuse to spend 5x the money on cables that dont do anything different

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #85 of 89 Old 12-15-2007, 12:48 PM
Member
 
JStehman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I'm pretty sure the copyright owners and the distributers of what I watch do not have my best interests as a high priority. Remember when we could first buy media to watch at home? The big lesson at the time was we aren't buying the movie, we are buying a license to watch it. Has anyone ever been able to use that license to buy a replacement copy of the media based on the original license to watch? I mean, when my four-year-old tried to tear all the tape out of the cassette, I should have been able to send the damaged cassette and a copy of my receipt/license to watch to the original vendor and get a replacement tape for a couple bucks for the media and shipping, right? Has anyone ever been able to convert the media from Betamax to VHS to DVD to Blu-Ray for just the price of the media? I didn't think so. Do/did a lot of you have a digital audio cassette recorder? The industry tried hard to stifle that one. I think they won.

I think the industry has demonstrated it will continue to convince us we need something new, less consumer-friendly, and probably more expensive. How can you futureproof around that concept. Conduit is nice, but the HDMI connector is not conduit-friendly. I think one way to stay future proof is to live in a tent. Since I'm not willing to raise my standard of living to do that, I built a single story house with a full unfinished basement and a full, unobstructed attic. I can get to the top and bottom of almost all my walls. I think in the next couple years as the new TV standard becomes more familiar, the industry will bring us ever changing gadgets with which to distribute and view video. Maybe there will be wireless distribution as there has been with PCs, telephones, nursery monitors, doorbells, and security systems. I expect there will be an ever-changing wired solution for the folks that hang out on this forum. I don't think we can future proof by installing the amazing XYZ System today; to furture proof means to be ready to accept the changes.

Now where did I leave that hole saw?
JStehman is offline  
post #86 of 89 Old 12-15-2007, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
kjgarrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Northwest Wisconsin
Posts: 2,243
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Questions are great and we should ask as many as possible Now, THAT'S the spirit!

I have to check my cable specs but others here can direct you to what cable to run if you want component over coax.
That statement confuses me. Don't YOU run component over coax?

I have 30 coax cables running into my closet, its a pain to work with (IMO). For the same video solution, I could have 6 cat5e cables and 6 baluns and it would make it much easier to work with. But you would have a lot less bandwidth, right? Maybe you have conduits and can pull whatever you need in the future?

kjg
kjgarrison is offline  
post #87 of 89 Old 12-15-2007, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
kjgarrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Northwest Wisconsin
Posts: 2,243
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by JStehman View Post

I'm pretty sure the copyright owners and the distributers of what I watch do not have my best interests as a high priority. Remember when we could first buy media to watch at home? The big lesson at the time was we aren't buying the movie, we are buying a license to watch it. Has anyone ever been able to use that license to buy a replacement copy of the media based on the original license to watch? I mean, when my four-year-old tried to tear all the tape out of the cassette, I should have been able to send the damaged cassette and a copy of my receipt/license to watch to the original vendor and get a replacement tape for a couple bucks for the media and shipping, right? Has anyone ever been able to convert the media from Betamax to VHS to DVD to Blu-Ray for just the price of the media? I didn't think so. Do/did a lot of you have a digital audio cassette recorder? The industry tried hard to stifle that one. I think they won.

I think the industry has demonstrated it will continue to convince us we need something new, less consumer-friendly, and probably more expensive. How can you futureproof around that concept. Conduit is nice, but the HDMI connector is not conduit-friendly. I think one way to stay future proof is to live in a tent. Since I'm not willing to raise my standard of living to do that, I built a single story house with a full unfinished basement and a full, unobstructed attic. I can get to the top and bottom of almost all my walls. I think in the next couple years as the new TV standard becomes more familiar, the industry will bring us ever changing gadgets with which to distribute and view video. Maybe there will be wireless distribution as there has been with PCs, telephones, nursery monitors, doorbells, and security systems. I expect there will be an ever-changing wired solution for the folks that hang out on this forum. I don't think we can future proof by installing the amazing XYZ System today; to furture proof means to be ready to accept the changes.

Now where did I leave that hole saw?

Excellent. "Future proof" is not possible, but doing what seems like it will stave off obsolesence is just prudent. You are as future proof as anybody can be with access to your walls, ceilings and floors. Well done. (Unless maybe the future is wireless in which case you coulda had a finished basement ... lol ... jk)
kjgarrison is offline  
post #88 of 89 Old 12-15-2007, 02:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
video321's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,582
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

penngray, do you have one of the matrix switchers video 321 is talking about? My understanding is the switcher would allow simultaneous viewing of any source from any location (within the constraints of I/O capacity of the switcher, that is.)

If you do, or even if you don't and/or video 321 is following the thread, I am wondering how control of the sources is accomplished.

At this time, I only have 1 HDTV. With that, my distribution is composite + analog with an AutoPatch switcher. My HD sources are homerun to the TV and all of the equipment is in the office and most cables terminate in the garage (read: no basement) Control of the switcher is through serial and the components get cntrolled through wifi pda and IR distribution. It all interfaces with my PC through a USB-UIRT. Since, I'm looking at adding a 2nd story to the house I haven't done all that much. But, even with this simple setup any room with a TV can also play any audio device, even the collection on the PC since the video is distributed.

My goal of not having any components in the rooms worked out fine.
video321 is offline  
post #89 of 89 Old 12-15-2007, 02:20 PM
Member
 
goldenear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 164
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JStehman View Post

Do/did a lot of you have a digital audio cassette recorder? The industry tried hard to stifle that one. I think they won.

Yeah, I've got a nice little portable deck that I use to stealth record at concerts, but I also have a portable 32-track digital tracking setup based upon a couple of Presonus 8-channel mic pre's and two Yamaha 01V's feeding a MOTU Digital Performer system. So I'm a little into the biz so to speak. But, yes, SCMS (serial copy management system) was the industry's answer to digital dub'ing. Thankfully, though, everything migrated to the computer and that allowed us to bypass that plague, LOL.
goldenear is offline  
Reply Home A/V Distribution

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off