Official RadianceXD support thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1407 Old 04-06-2010, 06:20 PM
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But just so we understand, nobody has ever objectively showed that converting HDMI to SDI (or even straight to SDI off the disk), and avoiding the introduction of HDCP has improved picture quality at all.

The only thing I can see SDI input useful for is if you had a source which was -only- SDI. And even with that, there are plently of SDI->HDMI converters out there.
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post #452 of 1407 Old 04-06-2010, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amt View Post

But just so we understand, nobody has ever objectively showed that converting HDMI to SDI (or even straight to SDI off the disk), and avoiding the introduction of HDCP has improved picture quality at all.

True - but some people have argued that it does.

(I do agree that an hdcp-less chain would be nice though. God I hate hdmi. Couldn't they at least make the physical connection secure? Argh. Rambling over.)
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post #453 of 1407 Old 04-07-2010, 04:39 AM
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I share your sentiments about HDMI. I wonder if there could ever be a class action law suit (OK, would probably never happen). It has failed in so many ways (to me at least).
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post #454 of 1407 Old 04-07-2010, 06:49 PM
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the worst thing IMHO about HDMI is the **** connector, should have stuck with the DVI type

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post #455 of 1407 Old 04-07-2010, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amt View Post

But just so we understand, nobody has ever objectively showed that converting HDMI to SDI (or even straight to SDI off the disk), and avoiding the introduction of HDCP has improved picture quality at all.

The only thing I can see SDI input useful for is if you had a source which was -only- SDI. And even with that, there are plently of SDI->HDMI converters out there.

Nobody is converting HDMI to SD-SDI. You're missing the point.

In an SD-SDI-modified DVD player--when the player doesn't have system-on-chip and it is possible to get to the raw output of the MPEG decoder--then going from there to SD-SDI bypasses all other processing the player might be doing to the signal.

Players do a lot of stuff between getting the feed off the disk and sending the result over HDMI. It's not the HDMI itself that I'm interested in bypassing--it's any and all other processing. You know, the stuff the player manufacturers call "features" in their brochures.

Sure, you can trust the player to not perform deinterlacing, colorspacing, upconversion, whatevering before sending the signal out over HDMI. But why have to trust? With a raw MPEG feed, you know for sure.

Just like the studios.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be possible to get a raw Blu-ray MPEG feed, so it's pointless to pay for a player that outputs HD-SDI. In that case, the best we can do is hope Source Direct does what they claim, and put up with the HDMI signal.
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post #456 of 1407 Old 04-10-2010, 01:37 PM
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Thought I would post that we have just introduced a HDMI to CAT6 cable extender product.

One of the most common calls I get from dealers and customers is "Isn't there a CAT extender that actually works well?" Several dealers I talked to actually have used different products for different cable lengths and even then did not have a robust connection. So we thought we would build a HDMI to CAT6 extender that does work well.

If you are interested here is a link for more information:

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...at6ext_details

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
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post #457 of 1407 Old 04-10-2010, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

Thought I would post that we have just introduced a HDMI to CAT6 cable extender product.

One of the most common calls I get from dealers and customers is "Isn't there a CAT extender that actually works well?" Several dealers I talked to actually have used different products for different cable lengths and even then did not have a robust connection. So we thought we would build a HDMI to CAT6 extender that does work well.

If you are interested here is a link for more information:

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...at6ext_details


Jim:

Congrats, looks like another great product from Lumagen...

Cheers,

Joel
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post #458 of 1407 Old 04-11-2010, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post

Thought I would post that we have just introduced a HDMI to CAT6 cable extender product.

One of the most common calls I get from dealers and customers is "Isn't there a CAT extender that actually works well?" Several dealers I talked to actually have used different products for different cable lengths and even then did not have a robust connection. So we thought we would build a HDMI to CAT6 extender that does work well.

If you are interested here is a link for more information:

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...at6ext_details

It's good to know that if our optical transceivers ever stop working, there's something else that will work.
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post #459 of 1407 Old 04-17-2010, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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A beta firmware with reinterlacing functionality has been released.

Spoiler alert: IT'S GREAT!
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post #460 of 1407 Old 04-17-2010, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave G View Post


A beta firmware with reinterlacing functionality has been released.

Spoiler alert: IT'S GREAT!

Dave, I have had my head in the sand for the last couple of months and would appreciate the an explanation as to the benefits and need for such capability inclusing when best to use it...

TIA...

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post #461 of 1407 Old 04-17-2010, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

Dave, I have had my head in the sand for the last couple of months and would appreciate the an explanation as to the benefits and need for such capability inclusing when best to use it...

TIA...

It's not publicly available yet, but you can grab it off the beta forum if you have access to it.

It's basically equivalent to DVDO's PreP, or PREp. (Or is it PReP?) Anyway, it reinterlaces a 480p or 576p signal so the vp can apply its own deinterlacing. It's particularly useful to our UK friends, who seem stuck with cable boxes who won't output an interlaced signal.

Myself I've been trying it with Netflix streaming off the PS3, and it works fantastic. Currently though you have to do a manual selection between two values, since automatic detection is patented (or about to be) by DVDO. Not sure if there's a way around that.
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post #462 of 1407 Old 04-17-2010, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave G View Post

Currently though you have to do a manual selection between two values, since automatic detection is patented (or about to be) by DVDO. Not sure if there's a way around that.

You can patent something like that?

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #463 of 1407 Old 04-17-2010, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

You can patent something like that?

Dude. Amazon has patented their one-click buy. I'm not sure there's anything you can't patent. It's all very ridiculous if you ask me (but nobody is, curiously enough).

In any case, I don't think the patent's been granted yet. And it's the 'automatic' part of it that is being patented, not the technique itself of alternatively fetching odd and even lines for reinterlacing.
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post #464 of 1407 Old 04-17-2010, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave G View Post

Dude. Amazon has patented their one-click buy. I'm not sure there's anything you can't patent. It's all very ridiculous if you ask me (but nobody is, curiously enough).

In any case, I don't think the patent's been granted yet. And it's the 'automatic' part of it that is being patented, not the technique itself of alternatively fetching odd and even lines for reinterlacing.

Wow, I didn't know you could patent an end result, especially something that can be accomplished in a myriad of different ways through software. I know you can't patent food recipes, and those can be just like software features in that it doesn't take much to reverse engineer and copy them.

Oh well...I'll be looking forward to trying this on my XE as soon as it's released to the general public.

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post #465 of 1407 Old 04-17-2010, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

Wow, I didn't know you could patent an end result, especially something that can be accomplished in a myriad of different ways through software. I know you can't patent food recipes, and those can be just like software features in that it doesn't take much to reverse engineer and copy them.

Oh well...I'll be looking forward to trying this on my XE as soon as it's released to the general public.

If a result can be obtained through various ways, it is sometimes possible to circumvent a patent by using one of the other ways. It depends on how broad the patent is, and what claims it makes.

For example, if DVDO's patent specifies a particular means for automatic detection (not saying it does, just making a hypothetical case), then an approach that does automatic detection by other means could get past the obstacle.

Patent attorneys know this, of course, which is why they try to make patents as broad as possible. But sometimes that backfires because if a patent is overly broad it can be rejected.

Ideally DVDO would compete on the basis of better customer service, better reliability, etc.
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post #466 of 1407 Old 04-17-2010, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave G View Post

It's not publicly available yet, but you can grab it off the beta forum if you have access to it.

It's basically equivalent to DVDO's PreP, or PREp. (Or is it PReP?) Anyway, it reinterlaces a 480p or 576p signal so the vp can apply its own deinterlacing. It's particularly useful to our UK friends, who seem stuck with cable boxes who won't output an interlaced signal.

Myself I've been trying it with Netflix streaming off the PS3, and it works fantastic. Currently though you have to do a manual selection between two values, since automatic detection is patented (or about to be) by DVDO. Not sure if there's a way around that.

Hello.

Do you know if lumagen reinterlacing will be available with 1080p50/6O too ?

regards

I'm french .... sorry for my english
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post #467 of 1407 Old 04-18-2010, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave G View Post

It's not publicly available yet, but you can grab it off the beta forum if you have access to it.

It's basically equivalent to DVDO's PreP, or PREp. (Or is it PReP?) Anyway, it reinterlaces a 480p or 576p signal so the vp can apply its own deinterlacing. It's particularly useful to our UK friends, who seem stuck with cable boxes who won't output an interlaced signal.

Myself I've been trying it with Netflix streaming off the PS3, and it works fantastic. Currently though you have to do a manual selection between two values, since automatic detection is patented (or about to be) by DVDO. Not sure if there's a way around that.

Dave:

Appreciate the explanation and can/will give it a go as I DO have access to the beta forum...

Cheers,

Joel
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post #468 of 1407 Old 04-18-2010, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex_t View Post

Hello.

Do you know if lumagen reinterlacing will be available with 1080p50/6O too ?

regards

It's not right now. Not sure if it'll be later. What would you use it for? A cable box?
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post #469 of 1407 Old 04-18-2010, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave G View Post

It's not right now. Not sure if it'll be later. What would you use it for? A cable box?

It will be a great feature for HD TV (1080i/50 native) by HTPC.

Do you know if Lumagen works on a solution to solve combing issue with PAL deinterlacing ?

regards

I'm french .... sorry for my english
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post #470 of 1407 Old 04-20-2010, 07:15 AM
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Hi !

From firmware 080109 to the last (I tried a couple of revision not all), PAL deinterlacing remains the same, it does not work well. I tested FILM mode and even if it was better, it was not perfect regarding OPPO BD83 or Crystalio 2 pal deinterlacing. Moreover, FILM mode only can not be THE solution because all the NR parameters are forced to 0 !

Until Lumagen gives us a solution, my oppo BD83 will ensure PAL deinterlacing because it is really better than radiance.

I hope lumagen can fix this problem quickly because radiance is the heart of my video system.

Regards

I'm french .... sorry for my english
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post #471 of 1407 Old 04-20-2010, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex_t View Post

Hi !

From firmware 080109 to the last (I tried a couple of revision not all), PAL deinterlacing remains the same, it does not work well. I tested FILM mode and even if it was better, it was not perfect regarding OPPO BD83 or Crystalio 2 pal deinterlacing. Moreover, FILM mode only can not be THE solution because all the NR parameters are forced to 0 !

Until Lumagen gives us a solution, my oppo BD83 will ensure PAL deinterlacing because it is really better than radiance.

I hope lumagen can fix this problem quickly because radiance is the heart of my video system.

Regards

You should email them directly - support *at* lumagen.com
You and others who need PAL deinterlacing.
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post #472 of 1407 Old 04-20-2010, 10:16 AM
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Alex:

First allow me to define terms. Deinterlacing is generally the term used for converting "true video" sources to progressive. "Inverse Telecine" is used to describe converting "true film" sources back to progressive. I believe you are actually discussing "inverse telecine" in your posts since it sounds like you are talking about "true film" sources, correct? I ask since if you are watching SD music videos it might be a "true video" source.

We added "Film mode" since the GF9450 film "inverse telecine" did not live up to expectations on its own. For film mode we do our own inverse telecine, but in doing so need to bypass the GF9450. We have been discussing if there is a way to then also go through the GF9450 for noise and edge processing, but we are not yet sure if this is possible.

That said, it is very reasonable to have the Oppo output progressive if you want the Radiance noise and edge processing. Unlike SD DVDs, where many movies are coded as interlaced, the Bluray movies we know about are encoded as progressive. Because of this, if you then output progressive from the Oppo for these Bluray's there is no inverse telecine step at all. So many prefer to send bluray movies to the Radiance progressively at either 24p or 25p. I used to suggest they be sent to us as 1080i with our oldest software, but now with our current software I suggest 24p/25p from the Bluray player to eliminate the inverse telecine from the video chain completely.

If you are watching a PAL DVD, and you like the Oppo inverse telecine, and you want the Radiance noise and edge processing, it is absolutely fine to output progressive video from the Oppo to the Radiance. We do recommend you output at the native resolution of the source (576p for PAL) from the Oppo so the Radiance can use it's NoRing (TM) scaling to scale the image to the display/projector resolution.

Jim Peterson
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post #473 of 1407 Old 04-20-2010, 10:42 AM
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it is very reasonable to have the Oppo output progressive if you want the Radiance noise and edge processing. Unlike SD DVDs, where many movies are coded as interlaced, the Bluray movies we know about are encoded as progressive. Because of this, if you then output progressive from the Oppo for these Bluray's there is no inverse telecine step at all. So many prefer to send bluray movies to the Radiance progressively at either 24p or 25p. I used to suggest they be sent to us as 1080i with our oldest software, but now with our current software I suggest 24p/25p from the Bluray player to eliminate the inverse telecine from the video chain completely.

I've been running our Oppo in Source Direct mode to the Radiance, and our Denon in SD-SDI mode to the Radiance, on the assumption that the Radiance would do a better job with both signals as close to the original as possible.

From the above, it sounds like maybe I shouldn't be doing that?
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post #474 of 1407 Old 04-20-2010, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sk20 View Post

I've been running our Oppo in Source Direct mode to the Radiance, and our Denon in SD-SDI mode to the Radiance, on the assumption that the Radiance would do a better job with both signals as close to the original as possible.

From the above, it sounds like maybe I shouldn't be doing that?

Alex was having some issues with Auto Deinterlace mode for PAL film source with interlaced input to the Radiance. The deinterlace issues would be corrected in Film mode but he also wanted access to the GF9450 noise and edge processing. This has not been possible in the past.

However, we are working on an update that - for PAL film source with 576i in and potentialy 1080i50 - allows both film mode deinterlace and access to the GF9450 noise and edge processing. If testing goes well we should have this in an update in the next couple days. So 576i PAL film input to the Radiance is going to satisfy both Alex's requirements.

For your Denon, you can run SDI at 480i or 576i. This avoids the SD processing in the Denon output circuitry which should give the best results. For 480i and 24p output "film mode" is automatic and means you don't get access to the GF9450 noise and edge processing. For 60p output from the Radiance you can use Auto mode and have access to the noise and edge processing. For PAL film source from the Denon (assuming you have PAL), soon you will also be able to use film mode and have access to the the noise and edge processing. So for the Denon SD DVD player SDI is the best option.

For Bluray, source direct (24p/25p) is best. Since bluray is encoded as 24p for movies, this eliminate the telecine and inverse-telecine steps.

Jim Peterson
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post #475 of 1407 Old 04-21-2010, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

Alex was having some issues with Auto Deinterlace mode for PAL film source with interlaced input to the Radiance. The deinterlace issues would be corrected in Film mode but he also wanted access to the GF9450 noise and edge processing. This has not been possible in the past.

However, we are working on an update that - for PAL film source with 576i in and potentialy 1080i50 - allows both film mode deinterlace and access to the GF9450 noise and edge processing. If testing goes well we should have this in an update in the next couple days. So 576i PAL film input to the Radiance is going to satisfy both Alex's requirements.

For your Denon, you can run SDI at 480i or 576i. This avoids the SD processing in the Denon output circuitry which should give the best results. For 480i and 24p output "film mode" is automatic and means you don't get access to the GF9450 noise and edge processing. For 60p output from the Radiance you can use Auto mode and have access to the noise and edge processing. For PAL film source from the Denon (assuming you have PAL), soon you will also be able to use film mode and have access to the the noise and edge processing. So for the Denon SD DVD player SDI is the best option.

For Bluray, source direct (24p/25p) is best. Since bluray is encoded as 24p for movies, this eliminate the telecine and inverse-telecine steps.

Hi Jim.

It is a good news.

Thanks a lot for your very good support.

(I have changed the "thumbs down" symbol in my previous post )

I'm french .... sorry for my english
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post #476 of 1407 Old 04-21-2010, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

If you are watching a PAL DVD, and you like the Oppo inverse telecine, and you want the Radiance noise and edge processing, it is absolutely fine to output progressive video from the Oppo to the Radiance. We do recommend you output at the native resolution of the source (576p for PAL) from the Oppo so the Radiance can use it's NoRing (TM) scaling to scale the image to the display/projector resolution.

Does anyone know if it's possible to de-interlace (or inverse telecine) sources on the BDP-83, but -not- scale the source? I thought the choices were only de-interlace-and-scale, or source direct.
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post #477 of 1407 Old 04-21-2010, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amt View Post

Does anyone know if it's possible to de-interlace (or inverse telecine) sources on the BDP-83, but -not- scale the source? I thought the choices were only de-interlace-and-scale, or source direct.

Not only.

When you watch a DVD you can select 576p for PAL (press source on the remote and select 576p) on BD83 thus deinterlace will be done by the player (576i to 576p) and radiance will do scaling 576p to 1080p50.

I do that and result is very good (but I prefer when radiance performs all the video processing [deinterlacing+scaling] )

I'm french .... sorry for my english
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post #478 of 1407 Old 04-22-2010, 09:36 AM
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However, we are working on an update that - for PAL film source with 576i in and potentialy 1080i50 - allows both film mode deinterlace and access to the GF9450 noise and edge processing. If testing goes well we should have this in an update in the next couple days. So 576i PAL film input to the Radiance is going to satisfy both Alex's requirements.

Very good news... I assume that the XS will also benefit from the update... right?

It seems that we (PAL people) are more than it seems...

Cheers.
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post #479 of 1407 Old 04-22-2010, 10:16 AM
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A 3D pass-through would be a nice feature to add soon
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post #480 of 1407 Old 04-22-2010, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by aoshiken View Post

Very good news... I assume that the XS will also benefit from the update... right?

It seems that we (PAL people) are more than it seems...

Cheers.

This "test" update is available and applies to the XD, XE and XS. Here is a post copied from our Lumagen Forum with info on the test release:

Here's a test update for some of our 50Hz/PAL users to try, it should be the same as the latest sw (031610) with some newly improved 50Hz deinterlacing. What was improved:

-The "film only" deinterlacing mode for 50Hz interlaced formats now allows you to use the "Enhance" commands which include noise reduction, etc. (60Hz interlaced with "film only" can still not use them)

-The "auto" deinterlacing mode does better now on 50Hz video (Deuch see old 576i test case with guy wearing red batman t-shirt) and 50Hz film (the Hero_2 test case with combing mouths). So far the "auto" mode seems to be much better with 50Hz video or film but still not as good as "film only" for one 50Hz film case I have here.

the test updates: (you can go back to older sw if needed)
for the XD: http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_032510.zip

for the XE: http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_xe032510.zip

for the XS: http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_xs032510.zip

As always, please give us some feedback...

ps. this does not have the reinterlacing test code in it that some of you may have tested.

----

If you want some history on this topic here is a link to this thread on the open Lumagen Forum:

http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum...9ef0f0355772f4

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
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