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Cheap component to VGA converter/480i to progressive upscaler?

13K views 32 replies 8 participants last post by  Zero Cool Kelvin 
#1 ·
I've been looking for one for my Wii and so far i found 2.

http://www.xcm.cc/xcm_1080p_megacool_vga_box.htm
http://www.gamemanx.com/multi-platfo...er/2008/05/20/


The first one can convert the 480i to 480p. Reason for a 480i converter is not all Wii and Gamecube games support 480p. The 2nd one on the other hand can do the same and upconvert it to my monitors resolution of 1920x1200. But I am not sure if I can trust the 2nd one as there is not a lot of reviews about it and i can only find it on ebay. Any reccommendations for such a converter thats cheap? Or any thoughts on the current ones?
 
#4 ·
From all the cheap ones, the HD Box Pro is the best one. $60, YUV to VGA, accepts all resolutions, interlaced and progressive, will do scaling on demand. It's a real bargain and quality wise it's better than the $350 Gefen units for example.

http://www.hdboxpro.com/eng/shop.htm
 
#6 ·
I will check this very combination, the iScan Pro vs. the HDBox Pro, next week. The iScan Pro is supposed to have a nice 240p mode, but it's delay is at least 40ms larger than the one of the HDBox Pro. Also the HD Box Pro supports progressive input which the iScan Pro can't handle.
 
#7 ·
Thank you, it was in fact your article that got me seriously thinking about 240p.


I wanted a linedoubler/deinterlacer that lets me use classic consoles such as Saturn and modern consoles such as Playstation2. I also want to use Dreamcast for those few games that does not support VGA box. I'm using a CRT monitor currently, so I do not really need a scaler, just a deinterlacer would do.


I narrowed my choice to three choices.


a) XRGB2+ : Probably the best for 240p sources because it correctly interprets incoming signal as 240p, not 480i. Not really the best for 480i as the resolution will be cut in half. (or am I correct?) It will only accept either Japanese 21pin RGB or component YUV, so tracking down those rare RGB cables can be tricky. The unit itself is either hard to find or plain expensive. (I did have a chance to buy one at $90 though) It would be really useful for Saturn and Dreamcast(15khz) games.


b) iscan pro/ultra : These may be old, but still versatile. What I like about this unit is the ability to input both YUV and 15hz RGB through its component input, so I can just get scart cables and use scart to component dongle and get away with it cheaply. Supposedly very good for deinterlacing 480i signals, but 240p is handled as 480i as well. PAL games are supported too and displayed in correct resolution as well. I just hope my monitor supports 50hz.


c) HD box pro + scart -> YUV transcoder : I have just purchased HD box pro per your excellent review at Shmups, so I'm very excited with it. HD box pro itself will be not only a great deinterlacer, but also a good quality transcoder. My current transcoder gives annoying flashes with 720p and 1080p, so this box already gives me a great value. Unfortunately, it only accepts component YUV, so to connect Saturn and Dreamcast through SCART, I need an extra hardware which will be scart to YUV transcoder from ebay. I will also like aspect ratio control since my monitor is 16:10 and I always have had to use guesswork when resizing my monitor. It's also supposedly compatible with PAL signals, but it will be scaled to either 648*480 or 800*600 and so on. I wished to minimize scaling, but oh well.


I have previously tried Faroudja DCDi Hudson (integrated in Harman Kardon AVR347 receiver) and Playstation3 as deinteracer/scaler solution. Playstation3, while the colors are excellent with absolute no picture noise at all, fails because it puts interpolation on every Playstation2 games default. The interpolation makes the picture too soft and blurry. It also introduced heavy amount of bobbing on 240p Playstation2 games. A great shame... Harman Kardon receiver was my first try with scalers and it did look great. While true progressive scan was always the best, DCDi did try its best to remove aliasing while introducing minimum soft picture. It worked great with colorful games, but not so with dark pictures. Shadow the Hedgehog looked way too colorful. 240p games were epic fail on this receiver though. The picture jumped up and down very quickly (especially at the top) distorting the picture clarity. I will eventually get Harman Kardon AVR255 and it will have DCDi Cinema Torino. People say they have noticed marked improvement coming from AVR247/347, but I wonder how the games will look? If there's anything I got wrong, please comment.


Looking forward to your review.
 
#8 ·
a) XRGB2+: you're right about the half resolution for 480i games... adapters for Euro scart to japanese scart are cheap and easily available though. I see a problem elsewhere: this unit was built for usage on small monitors (17"). If you use it on a 32"-50" screen you'll find the picture is somewhat unstable. You'll notice curls on vertical lines. Another problem is that while ths scanline emulation is very nice on 480p displays, the rescaling of the 480p output by the TV produces moire effects and looks generally weird on some displays.


b) Tested an iScan Pro yesterday. It has component (and composite and S-Video) only, no RGBs. Same with the Ultra (I think). The HD/HD+ units were the firsts to have RGBs as well. 240p looks actually very nice on most games (flickering drop shadows for example on 240p games), but all the SIL503/504 processors had a bug which - in some situations produced weird interpolation pixels where non are supposed to be (see pics). And last not least. After playing on an XRGB2, a HD Box Pro or a iScan 20/30/50 you'll find it to be SLOW. The delay's probably somwhere in the 50ms range. This is absolutely OK for standard gaming, but ESPGaluda felt like played with gum inside the controller.

http://pms.hazard-city.de/sil503_480i.jpg
http://pms.hazard-city.de/sil503_240p.jpg


c) The PAL Scaling to 800x600 makes sense as probably hardly any LCD would accept 576p50 via VGA. Or at least it would interpreted as 800x600 and you would get large borders. For a component to Scart transcoder I wouldn't buy one from eBay. I had a Scart to Component box and the quality was ok but not great. I'm currently looking into a transcoder board from JROK. They're used for high-end Superguns or for modding Neo Geos to component. They aren't cheap ($80), but look promising.


DCDi: blame the implementation. I was extremely happy with 240p via DCDI done by my Crytalio processor. It it wasn't rather slow (50ms+) it would still be my top choice for videogaming. I'm not into checking out those AVRs with built in videoscaling, since I'm pretty happy with my 50pro. The 240p handling is coming along and with it's processing of only 6ms for progressive sources it will a top choice (just a bit expensive to just use it with videogames).


I haven't got my new HDBox Pro yet, but I should next week or so. I basically re-ordered it to daisy-chain it with an Extron Emotia to get a 480i to 240p device. The Emotia has zero delay and high processing quality, so it will be nice to see how this works out.


Tobias
 
#10 ·
Yes, both the box and the exterior design look different. But that OSD, whoa! That's exactly the same OSD HD Box Pro is using as well, font and all.


I've never used that Hi Box, but from the review, both Hi box and HD Box Pro do pretty much the same thing, an average quality deinterlacer + scaler/transcoder.


I can tell you a bit about HD Box Pro. I bought this per Fudoh's excellent advice, and he was right. The product itself is quite satisfactory...when it comes to 240p games that is.


I was originally thinking using this to replace my 480p/720p/1080p YUV to VGA transcoder. It does have transcoding feature, so if you say X2VGA is 'gimped' just because it only transcodes progressive signals, NOT deinterlace 480i, I can assure you, this box is DOES deinterlace 480i signals in addition to transcoding, so you can think of this box as an all-in-one solution.


However, there are a few problems.


1. ANY incoming signals will undergo through this box's video processor even if you set the output resolution to be identical as the input. (ie.480p) Of course, interlaced signals will have to go through it anyway because it needs to be deinterlaced, but the same holds true for progressive signal as well. Of course, if you were going to scale it anyhow (like LCD monitors), you would want it go through the video scaler. But for CRT owners like me, deinterlacer? welcome! transcoder? another welcome! scaler? no thanks! By transcoding YUV to RGB in the scaler's domain, it introduces slightly inferior image quality compared to direct YUV to RGB transcoder such as X2VGA. I have one of those and HD Box Pro has quite softer and blurrier image quality compared to my transcoder. It makes sense, by using a progressive scan only transcoder, the incoming signal will NOT get molested other than the colorspace conversion. (that is, YUV to RGB) The resolution will remain the same and etc. However, HD Box Pro will scale no matter what. It should be noted that it does not output in HD resolutions, just slightly higher vertically (such as 1280*768 and 1980*1200) necessitating a need for a scaler. Now, aspect ratios are kept really well, but it hardly matters when the image quality gets gimped. I tried Ridge Racer 7 and HD Box Pro's 1080P output was worse than my transcoder's 720p output. So for progressive scan games, you can still use HD Box Pro for those, but do know that dedicated progressive scan only transcoders such as X2VGA will still do a better job.


2. 480i deinterlacing is decent, but could be better. Aforementioned problem still persists with 480i deinterlacing, but to a lesser degree. Besides, I can't really ask for more because I need that scaling engine to perform deinterlacing. I tested Playstation2 games and compared to Playstation3, I found deinterlacing done by PS3 to have better color, better detail, and more stable picture. PS3 is also not perfect because it adds interpolation on default, but HD Box Pro adds blurry interpolation just as much if not...wait, it DOES add more than PS3, sigh..


However, it works great with 240p games, such as Sega Genesis, Sega Saturn, and other classic console games. One thing I hate about PS3's PS2 BC is too much weaving on 240p games. On this box, there still is weaving because the signal is still taken as 480i, not 240p as X-RGB2, but you can adjust to remove the weaving! But the price is slight picture instability. I hate weaving more than any other defects, and I'm going to use this box for action heavy games such as shmups and fighting games, so it doesn't bother me much.


If you use LCD monitor and play many input-sensitive games such as fighting games, shmups, and Guitar Hero, then I recommend this little box. I also recommend this box for classic console owners. For non timing sensitive 480i games, there are better choices such as iscan pro/ultra. For progressive scan games, (480p/720p/1080p) stick with dedicated transcoder such as X2VGA and Vdigi. But even with this box's average performance with 480i and progressive signals, this box can be better than iscan deinterlacers and X2VGA for LCD monitors just because it also comes with a decent scaler for lower price. Considering how most scalers on LCD monitors are either crap or adds massive input lag, this box can be helpful. I'm using Sony FW900 CRT monitor so I don't need a scaler.


Just know that I'm a bit picky, because I'm coming from Dreamcast VGA box. This box still is miles ahead of hundreds of other crappy so-called 'VGA boxes'. I bought this box mainly for 240p games. I will have to deal with slightly soft image quality for shorter scaling lag time.
 
#11 ·
I can just concur. Unfortunately the transcoding of the HDBoxPro isn't as good as it could be. It's a bit weird since 480p In and 480o Out shouldn't too hard. I recently directly compared this one with a Burosch Con-1 (pure transcoder) and while the Con-1 had really perfect quality (just like the DC's native VGA signal) the HDBoxPro produced a VGA picture which was similar to the deinterlaced 480i picture, but lacked the advantage of the native progressive signal (tested with OutRun2SP on the PS2 which is switchable between 480i and 480p).


But again, at $50 you simply can't go wrong with the little box.
 
#12 ·
Thanks for the information!


The reason I said "gimped" was because of what others said and Neoya's own explanation of how they supported 480i:
http://www.x2vga.com/support

Quote:
Most VGA monitors cannot display in 480i mode. The X2VGA 2 provides a simplified display of 480i with the exceptional 480i EasyView feature (patented pending). 480i EasyView however doesn't function for complete display. In order to maintain the best display while the game is playing, 480i EasyView can display 480i mode signals on VGA monitors with two limits as following:

1. You can see only a half of the full screen at one time. When you need to see the hidden part, hold the Screen Shift Button on the X2VGA 2 and the screen will move continually until reaching the part you want.

2. Some screen instability / blurriness in 480i EasyView mode when you start the Xbox system with the X2VGA 2 is normal. Don't worry, it is harmless to your monitor and will not be there once you start the game in 480p, 720p, or 1080i modes.

Since the 480i Easyview feature has the two limitations above, it is only targeted at providing convenience to a short-term use in setting Xbox on the VGA monitor. DO NOT use 480i EasyView in playing 480i games or DVDs to reduce the risk of serious injury to your eyes.

To be honest, at $50 (+Shipping and duties), I'm not looking for the best quality for my LCD (It's a Dell E228WFP). I just want something acceptable so I can play my consoles at my desk (Basically, 480i with a PS2, 480p with a Gamecube/Wii and 720p/1080i with a 360 and PS3). If I needed quality, I would just save up for an HDTV Monitor.


My plan is also to use the box with a Hauppauge HD-PVR using its component-out passthrough (So as long as I can see something, I'll be happy with my purchase).
 
#13 ·
The Neoya's 480i mode really can't be used for any gaming. It's just to get a picture AT ALL during any setup process (which transcoders usually won't do). It's the HDBox Pro you want and it will do all you need.
 
#14 ·
Oh, I have been forgetting about that Neoya X2VGA. I did hear that its 480i output was just a temporary solution for guiding through Xbox dashboards and such. (that is...until Xbox dashboard was updated to support progressive scan) Don't worry, this box's primary function is to act as an deinterlacer, so you'll like it very much. Even though this box will benefit LCD owners the most, it looks pretty good on my CRT monitor as well. Just keep in mind the deinterlacing will be strictly done in video mode only, so you may see some kind of weaving on DVD movies. (still, easily removable) The picture still looks great, but it doesn't support 3:2 pulldown afterall.


Just know that even if you purchase an HDTV, a quality deinterlacer/scaler is still helpful. Many HDTVs, just like LCD monitors, skimp out on deinterlacer/scalers in order to cut the cost. Your primary concern when purchasing an HDTV will be scaling quality, input lag, and compatibility. Samsung 650/750 for example, can introduce up to 100ms of input lag when set in 120hz mode. Any benefits of remedying motion blur through 120hz interpolation will be cancelled out with such long input lag time. When I used to own a Sony Bravia W3000, I compared the deinterlacing/scaling quality of deinterlacer with a Faroudja DCDi scaler and the difference was quite huge. Knowing that Bravia are well known for having a quality scaler, but even so, I found the picture quality of Gamecube and Playstation2 games intolerable. However, when fed through a DCDi scaler equipped receiver, I was finally satisfied.
I returned it because I could not stand its motion blur and black level. I'm now only looking for a plasma TV. But DCDi scaler does introduce a bit of input lag, so for shmups and fighting games, HD Box Pro can certainly come in handy even in HDTVs.


And I have a question for you, Fubar, seeing as you've used many deinterlacers/scalers. I have been told interlaced videos (NOT 24p films) will permanently lose half the resolution and the best the deinterlacers can do is either take that field as a full frame, or use various motion adoptive algorithms to guestimate the lost information. Now, for 60fps materials, this makes sense, as there can only be 60 fields, not full resolution frames on interlaced displays. But I don't understand why the same applies to 30fps (or lower) materials as well. Can't a source material display a single full frame by using two fields? Can't a deinterlacer, then recombine those two fields into a full frame with no lost information whatsoever? I'm primarily talking about game consoles, which I'm sure is just feeding a field out of full frame buffer per 1/60 of a second. I'm still a n00b in video processors, so I have so many questions.
 
#15 ·
Hi, completely new here and found this site whilst searching for info regarding the HD Box Pro



This is aimed at KOF really - what are you using to connect your Genesis etc to the HD Box Pro? I'm trying to get better picture quality from a SNES, PC Engine, Neo Geo etc on my 32 Samsung LCD TV and I'm interested in your recommendation about using it for the Genesis.


I already have a HD Box Pro as I wanted to see what it could do with the Wii, if I could use it with retro kit as well that would be great.


thanks

Pete
 
#16 ·
This is a pain to do. There are only very few good RGBs to Component (interlaced) converters out there and they are not this cheap. If you google or check eBay you'll find Scart to Component converters for around $50-60. This is the only thing you can do. Or you can upgrade to an upscaling device better suited for your retro systems.
 
#17 ·
Hi


Thank you for replying...


I already have one RGB to component box (made by JS Technology), but it really hates my retro gear. I have seen other brand ones on ebay but never been sure of their quality



I have recently found this (ooh, i can't post a url yet because of my low post count, but google for ambery rgb vga), so currently looking for info on that - is this the kind of device you were thinking of?


Pete
 
#18 ·
The Ambery box is made by CYP Taiwan and has issues. And since it goes directly to VGA you could not use it with your HDBoxPro anyway.


The JS Tech thing doesn't look to bad, what's wrong with it ? At a googled price tag of $150 or more, you might consider getting rid of it plus your HDBoxPro and go for something which offers all you want in one box ?
 
#19 ·
The problem with the JS Tech is it doesn't like all of my retro consoles, like my Japanese Megadrive, PC Engine, just doesn't output a signal. I don't know if it doesn't recognise the signal or what. It does work with some, such as the Neo Geo, and it works fine with AV equipment like digital TV boxes etc.


I bought it off ebay, and the manufacturer has offered some advice but unfortunately can't offer me full support for it because I didn't buy it direct from them.


I am considering selling them both for an all-in-one solution, it's just finding the right one that doesn't cost a small fortune



Cheers

Pete
 
#20 ·
For your videogame needs ? And you're in a NTSC-only country ? Get a XRGB3. I'll do a cross comparison review of the 2+ and the 3 this weekend and I'll post it on my videogame deinterlacing website and over at the shmups.com discussion board.
 
#21 ·
Just wanted anyone's opinion: Would an Iscan Pro produce significantly better results when used with a capture device? Right now I'm capturing some 480i footage with a Hauppauge HD-PVR and deinterlacing the results is a bit of a hassle (For picture quality and to get the captured footage to run at 59.94fps).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh /forum/post/14642039


For your videogame needs ? And you're in a NTSC-only country ? Get a XRGB3. I'll do a cross comparison review of the 2+ and the 3 this weekend and I'll post it on my videogame deinterlacing website and over at the shmups.com discussion board.

What's the URL to your website? I wouldn't mind taking a look.
 
#22 ·
 http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/
http://yokotate.hazard-city.de/


What do you mean when you ask for better results of a DVDO unit in conjunction with a capturing device ? For playing the overall delay would get pretty huge. I also don't know any HD capture card which which could provide a real-time overlay good enough for playing. If you want to capture SD content check the 2nd link from above. I've recently added screenshots from a capture I've taken.
 
#23 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh /forum/post/14642039


For your videogame needs ? And you're in a NTSC-only country ? Get a XRGB3. I'll do a cross comparison review of the 2+ and the 3 this weekend and I'll post it on my videogame deinterlacing website and over at the shmups.com discussion board.

I'm in the UK, but most of my retro gaming kit is NTSC, or at least modifed to output RGB at 60hz. USA SNES, RGB modified PC Engine, UK 60hz modified Megadrive, JPN Neo Geo AES - all using RGB (which of course looks great on my little 14 inch portable TV)


I would love an XRGB2+ or 3, maybe I should just save up the money after reading your site.


Thanks

Pete
 
#24 ·
You should. Prices in the UK are usually a bit high (I think the last XRGB2+ on eBay.co.uk went for GBP 175), but you should be able to find one in time...
 
#25 ·
Just picked up an XRGB2 (non plus model), just got to source a 13.8v PSU for it and hopefully I'll be good to go! Reading around I can either build a Euro Scart to Japanese 21 pin converter, or modify the unit to accept Euro Scart cables (small mix up with pins 16 and 20 but easily fixed)


Any experience with the non-plus model?


Ta

Pete
 
#26 ·
I had the non plus for quite some time. It has no component input and only a fixed setting for the scanline emulation intensity, but besides these two points it's identical to the 2plus.


By the way: that was very fast. I know people who looked months for one to buy...
 
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