"Official HD-SDI Discussion, Comparisons & Etc..." - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 190 Old 01-24-2009, 08:13 AM
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Curiosity question . . .

I have a Pioneer BDP-51FD Blu-ray player doing source direct via HDMI to my VP50PRO and then to my monitor.

If the same player could do HD-SDI to the VP50PRO, would I see that much of a difference?

TIA.
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post #92 of 190 Old 01-24-2009, 09:24 PM
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yes, the new Pioneers have 4:2:2 direct out, but HD-SDI is slightly better

don't expect night and day differences, those most appreciative have very large high-end projection systems or are in a professional/studio environment

-Gary
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post #93 of 190 Old 01-25-2009, 07:01 AM
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Generally speaking, you don't want to come out of your processor/player in 422 mode, because then you are relying on your monitor/display to do the 422 to 444 conversion. The assumption being that the 422 to 444 conversion in the monitor being of inferior quality to that provided in the processor. You need dual-link HDSDI to carry 444 @ 1080p.
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post #94 of 190 Old 01-25-2009, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

not at this time, something that will be looked into, Glimmie did a HD-SDI mod on his JVC 5u, which would probably be the deck that is done if it happens, but he is far from DIY, he works with HD-SDI as a engineer and as far as I know doesn't sell

-Gary

Maybe he can share is intel ?
Or lease
Rent
Whatever if there is a demand that could be worth trying.
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post #95 of 190 Old 01-25-2009, 08:19 AM
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Is it worth sdi moding a sony 400 dvd player (no-hdmi) or just upconvert via component video?

tony4k
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post #96 of 190 Old 01-25-2009, 08:22 AM
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In that case SDI is the solution.
That also depends on how good the Sony's MPEG2 decoder is.
Dunno if Sony DVD players are good SDI mod bases.
I prefer Oppo and some selected philips.
That also depends on what extra features you need (SACD, DVD-A etc.)
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post #97 of 190 Old 01-25-2009, 09:00 AM
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the Sony 400 disc units are excellent SDI units, are we talking the 995? or the ES model?

-Gary
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post #98 of 190 Old 01-25-2009, 09:18 AM
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I have the 995 non-HDMI model. the question is....is it worth moding or upconverting?

tony4k
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post #99 of 190 Old 01-25-2009, 12:13 PM
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for that model you bet it is, you don't even have 480i HDMI to compare with that unit, only analog outs which SDI will mop the floor with

-Gary
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post #100 of 190 Old 01-25-2009, 02:39 PM
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Is this mod expensive?

tony4k
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post #101 of 190 Old 01-25-2009, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

yes, the new Pioneers have 4:2:2 direct out, but HD-SDI is slightly better

don't expect night and day differences, those most appreciative have very large high-end projection systems or are in a professional/studio environment

-Gary

Thanks, Gary! My current monitor, a 60" Sony SXRD, is the "weak link" in my set up. Until I move up to something better, I'm probably best where I'm at now.

Best.
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post #102 of 190 Old 01-25-2009, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbase1 View Post

Is this mod expensive?

roughly 450$

-Gary
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post #103 of 190 Old 01-26-2009, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

yes, the new Pioneers have 4:2:2 direct out, but HD-SDI is slightly better

don't expect night and day differences, those most appreciative have very large high-end projection systems or are in a professional/studio environment

-Gary

Have you seen this? I don't see how this can be the case. On the Pioneer BD05FU which is supposed to be the same as the 51, the HDMI output in 422 direct is supposed to be unprocessed. Therefore it would be indentical video data to an HDSDI mod. As long as the virgin code values are preserved, it doesn't matter what type of digital interface is used to carry them.

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post #104 of 190 Old 01-26-2009, 01:54 PM
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I do not think the video signal gets a real pass through.
The simple fact is that the stream path is still physicaly the same and all the electronics it goes in and out cannot be bypassed.
There must be some alterations event small ones.

I tested an LX91 (aka 09) not long ago, this player have a native video option that behaves like a processing bypass (you get 480i, 576i, 720p, 1080i and 1080p24, no processing at all), that looked awesome on my VPS3800.
I also got a BD50 with HD-SDI mod and with HD-SDI I get a little better picture.

Is that due to the HD-SDI transmiter in the BD50 and the receiver in the VPS3800 that would be very high quality ? Is there some errors with HDMI we do not have in HD-SDI ? Does the electronics in the LX91 cannot do a real pass through ? ...

I don't know the reasons, but that what I saw.
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post #105 of 190 Old 01-26-2009, 02:18 PM
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This is easily measured. Most modern HD wavefrom monitors can isolate pixles and measure the code value. If they are the same value between HDMI and HDSDI across numerous areas, then it's highly probable it's the same picture. You could measure every single active pixel if you wanted to prove this 100%.

HDSDI has it's advantages. I use it on DVHS because the JVC HDMI implementation throws some displays into "4x3 computer mode. I use it on the old Panasonic STB as the Samsung SIRT165 DVI out has a poor YpBpR to RGB conversion that cannot be bypassed. But in the case of the newest Poineer Bluray units I beleive they are native 422.

The only way there can be image quality differences is if there is additional processing taking place on the HDMI output. I agree the even an advertised direct output may in fact still be doing some limited processing.

However make no mistake "golden ear audio claims" are hogwash when it comes to digital video. The image is either error free or not. Transmission errors result in distinct sparkles. Errors DO NOT result in level or hue changes. Both HDMI and HDSDI are scrambled bit streams. HDMI has the obvious HDCP scrambling and HDSDI uses scrambling to ensure clock recovery. Therefore any error means a complete loss of that pixel. It's not like you can drop an LSB or two and have the code value change only by that binary percentage. That just can't happen.

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post #106 of 190 Old 01-26-2009, 04:24 PM
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...I don't know the reasons, but that what I saw....

You didn't make a valid comparison. You have to take the video out of the -same- player and make a live AB switch between the two signals you are trying to evaluate.
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post #107 of 190 Old 01-26-2009, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

This is easily measured. Most modern HD wavefrom monitors can isolate pixles and measure the code value. If they are the same value between HDMI and HDSDI across numerous areas, then it's highly probable it's the same picture. You could measure every single active pixel if you wanted to prove this 100%.

HDSDI has it's advantages. I use it on DVHS because the JVC HDMI implementation throws some displays into "4x3 computer mode. I use it on the old Panasonic STB as the Samsung SIRT165 DVI out has a poor YpBpR to RGB conversion that cannot be bypassed. But in the case of the newest Poineer Bluray units I beleive they are native 422.

The only way there can be image quality differences is if there is additional processing taking place on the HDMI output. I agree the even an advertised direct output may in fact still be doing some limited processing.

However make no mistake "golden ear audio claims" are hogwash when it comes to digital video. The image is either error free or not. Transmission errors result in distinct sparkles. Errors DO NOT result in level or hue changes. Both HDMI and HDSDI are scrambled bit streams. HDMI has the obvious HDCP scrambling and HDSDI uses scrambling to ensure clock recovery. Therefore any error means a complete loss of that pixel. It's not like you can drop an LSB or two and have the code value change only by that binary percentage. That just can't happen.

Glimmie, everyone is not a engineer, I venture to say many out there have sparklies and don't even know it

HDMI does have level and hue changes but not from errors, it is due to colorspace processing/converting and other goodies, HD-SDI avoids this

-Gary
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post #108 of 190 Old 01-26-2009, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Have you seen this? I don't see how this can be the case. On the Pioneer BD05FU which is supposed to be the same as the 51, the HDMI output in 422 direct is supposed to be unprocessed. Therefore it would be indentical video data to an HDSDI mod. As long as the virgin code values are preserved, it doesn't matter what type of digital interface is used to carry them.

thats the whole point I am trying to get people to understand, "supposed to be" but isn't, it is processed with extra ringing via added hidden sharpness(easy to see on test patterns), even in direct mode on the 05/51 units

no manufacturer has implemented a 100% umolested HDMI output that could be equal to HD-SDI, I gave up looking for that to happen, some players have no sharpness or hidden processing but do colorspace conversions, other players do 4:2:2 direct but have added processing like the latest Pioneers, some have direct 4:2:2 with no added ringing but have clipped whites and crushed blacks

-Gary
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post #109 of 190 Old 01-26-2009, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

....other players do 4:2:2 direct but have added processing like the latest Pioneers, some have direct 4:2:2 with no added ringing but have clipped whites and crushed blacks

-Gary


Well I will look into this. I'm not doubting it, just want to see it. But the only way is direct screen measurments. My above ideas of pixel comparisions have a flaw I thought of after posting:

In order to measure the HDMI it must be converted to HDSDI. There is no HDCP compliant converter I know of. There are a few DVI units that may ignore HDCP but then we must make sure we compare at 8bit and not 10bit.

Now one other thing is 10bit operation. Are the HDMI outputs being upped to 10bit? If so this could cause level shifts. But then again this is not a pure MPEG decoder HDMI output.

ALso possible is remapping of the code range. SMPTE292 compliant HDSDI is 16 to 235 (8bit) or 64 to 940(10bit). Now does the HDMI output run from 0 to 255 or 1024? If this is being done, then yes, the HDMI output is not the same as an HDSDI tap.

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post #110 of 190 Old 01-26-2009, 05:48 PM
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...I venture to say many out there have sparklies and don't even know it...

As I stated -twice-, if you look at a full black screen and don't see any noise impulses, then for all intents and purposes, you don't have any noise in your system, even if it is measureable with instrumentation. Same goes in your audio system. Easy to pull out a meter and measure noise in any system. Whether you can hear it or not, is the important thing.

...Now does the HDMI output run from 0 to 255 or 1024? If this is being done, then yes, the HDMI output is not the same as an HDSDI tap....

According to "Video Demystified" by Keith Jack (pg. 163): "DVI uses TMDS. Eight bits of video data are converted to 10-bit transition-minimized, DC balanced value, which is then serialized. The receiver de-serializes the data, and converts it back to 8 bits." Also, according to Jack (pg. 168): "Video data is either `full range` 0x00-0xFF for 8-bit RGB data, or `limited range` .... 0x10-0xF0 for 8-bit CbCr data."
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post #111 of 190 Old 01-26-2009, 11:25 PM
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Glimmie,

Can't the new Doremi GHX-10 converter do what you require?
With your connections you may be able to get your hands on one to test.
818-562-1101 will put you in touch with the tech dept.


I for one would be very interested in the results. it still won't change the fact that I would rather input to my blender via it's HD-SDI input.

Mark Conner
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post #112 of 190 Old 01-27-2009, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

roughly 450$

-Gary

Sorry about the confusion ,but the sony 400 disc is a cx985v that I'm looking to mod.

tony4k
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post #113 of 190 Old 01-27-2009, 05:09 PM
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...Can't the new Doremi GHX-10 converter do what you require?

It won't work. As soon as you connect an HDMI source with HDCP into that Doremi box input, the HDCP will shut the connection down. One of the features of HDCP that we all love.
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post #114 of 190 Old 01-28-2009, 03:38 PM
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RE: GHX-10
I have never read anything on it that even mentions HDCP so you could be right.

Mark Conner
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post #115 of 190 Old 02-07-2009, 10:54 AM
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Crystallio II 3800pro or VP50pro or for Lumagen Radiance XD? ...which one should i get. I will be using it with my sony vpl-vw100, Blu-ray, and ect....Any help to make up my mind is much appreciate.

thanks

keith
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post #116 of 190 Old 02-07-2009, 11:17 AM
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of course I am going to say whatever has HD-SDI and that leaves one out of the game

-Gary
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post #117 of 190 Old 02-07-2009, 11:25 AM
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Is anyone using the original HD-SDI card on the VP50 pro in their setup? I'm wanting to make use of mine but couldn't ever get tech support to replace it. Will the original card work?

Thanks,
Mike
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post #118 of 190 Old 02-07-2009, 02:57 PM
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will work fine with any SDI DVD player, will not work with old original early HD-SDI units

you won't have any problems

-Gary
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post #119 of 190 Old 02-13-2009, 06:22 PM
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Need help..!
I'm using Crystalio II vps-3800 + Denon bd-3800 HD SDI + Integra 9.8.

I couldn't send 1080p24 via HD SDI from bd-3800 to C-II while I'm using HDMI cable from bd-3800 to Integra 9.8 to get DTS HD MA or Dolby True HD.

I did try Gary's method ( monitor out = No ....on Integra 9.8) but it didn't work.

Any suggestion?

Thanks in advance.
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post #120 of 190 Old 02-13-2009, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-airforce View Post

Need help..!
I'm using Crystalio II vps-3800 + Denon bd-3800 HD SDI + Integra 9.8.

I couldn't send 1080p24 via HD SDI from bd-3800 to C-II while I'm using HDMI cable from bd-3800 to Integra 9.8 to get DTS HD MA or Dolby True HD.

I did try Gary's method ( monitor out = No ....on Integra 9.8) but it didn't work.

Any suggestion?

Thanks in advance.

you have the SDI going from the Denon to the Crystalio and HDMI going from the Denon to the Integra, correct? your output on the Denon is set to direct/1080p24?

make sure immediate display is set to off on the Integra and that it is set to passthru, then turn off the monitor output like you said, everything should be flowing

you may want to try and get the audio flowing first with HDMI only connected, then connect your HD-SDI to the Crystalio

also lastly after the above try 1080i output on the Denon and see if it changes anything if the above isn't successful

it also could be setup related on the Denon, check all the menus for settings that might disable HDMI audio and make sure bitstreaming is setup correctly

-Gary
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