DVDO EDGE !! - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 7111 Old 08-19-2008, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCIFRTHS View Post

I thought that since my display supports 1080p/60, that if I fed it a 1080p/60 signal, that it wouldn't do any processing, and pass the signal unaltered. What you are suggesting is that the Reon may be doing some noise reduction, in the situation I mentioned?

Well,,, its been confirmed that the Onkyo is mucking up HDMI inputs in Ycc by outputting them in rec 601 colorspace even though output is HD and should be in 709 unless Reon is set to 'Through'. Thats why many are turning off the Reons. An RGB input is supposedly output correctly.
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post #632 of 7111 Old 08-19-2008, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

AVS Algolith FLea Component mini-review

I have the HDMI version. It works wonders on broadcast sources.

Algolith HDMI FLEA Review

But is the Flea all you have a DVDO as well? And would you say the Flea does as much for SD as a DVDO would? I'm new to all these scalers and am just trying to figure this out. Iknow I need something, but exactly what is my delimna. I am kind of limited with my budget although $1000 is not out of the question. In fact my local Fry's has a VP20 for $990, but I have seen VP30's online for about $750. But again, I want whatever will clean SD the best. Some of my channels are ok, but the majority are pretty bad. Luckily the ones I watch most like Disc, Sci and Nat Geo are pretty good. Of course they are all 480i, but some look better.

What do you, and for that matter, all of think? I'm not asking for scalers 101 class, because you all know this tuff inside and out and don't have time to bring me up to speed but any help in this regard will be appreciated.

Thanks,

dudeman
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post #633 of 7111 Old 08-19-2008, 08:26 PM
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The Flea is just a Noise Reduction unit, basically. It doesn't scale. It works great though, I highly recommend one, if you can find one...
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post #634 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scsiraid View Post

Thats what I would do... IF.. I had an Edge..

A somewhat related question: how do you guys use your AVRs GUI when it's out of the chain?
And what's up with OSD volume etc?
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post #635 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 01:05 AM
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Amazon pre-order price for the unit at $699!

very tempted....

To be or NOT to be......YOU are WHO you ARE
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post #636 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

A somewhat related question: how do you guys use your AVRs GUI when it's out of the chain?
And what's up with OSD volume etc?

Answered a few times very recently in the thread.
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post #637 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scsiraid View Post

Well,,, its been confirmed that the Onkyo is mucking up HDMI inputs in Ycc by outputting them in rec 601 colorspace even though output is HD and should be in 709 unless Reon is set to 'Through'. Thats why many are turning off the Reons. An RGB input is supposedly output correctly.

Which model are you referring to here? I have the 605 and put Y4 2 2 through it at 1080p 24/50/60 and I don't seem to have any problems. Also tried RGB and Y4 4 4 an both these seem to pass though OK too.

Phil.
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post #638 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escon View Post

Which model are you referring to here? I have the 605 and put Y4 2 2 through it at 1080p 24/50/60 and I don't seem to have any problems. Also tried RGB and Y4 4 4 an both these seem to pass though OK too.

The Reon equipped Onkyo's only... 875, 905 and Integra models with Reon.

The problem is subtle. Its a color shift. If you arent 'picky' you probably wont know its even happening.
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post #639 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 07:15 AM
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Does this processor automatically scale video input so the outgoing signal is a 6x9 ratio? In other words, 2.35 or 2.4:1 movies are scaled automatically to 6x9?

I'm getting a projector and would like to see if this processor will work instead of an expensive lens option. It should, but I'm not versed on the cababilities of these processors, in layman's terms.
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post #640 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyw View Post

Amazon pre-order price for the unit at $699!

very tempted....

And I have a $150 credit with Amazon.

Even more tempting.

Display: Pioneer PRO-151 60" Elite
Blu-ray player: OPPO BDP-93, Sony BDP-S1000ES
Processor: Onkyo PR-SC885
Amplifier: Emotiva IPS-1 150Wx7
Game Console: Xbox 360, Xbox One, PS4
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post #641 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee View Post

Secondly, is the processing done in 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 colour? MPEG video may be 4:2:0, but games are 4:4:4 and the difference is noticeable in my setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh@dvdo View Post

Processing is done in YCbCr 4:2:2.

Josh,

What does the EDGE do with a YCbCr 4:4:4 signal?

My Pioneer BDP-51FD can output a YCbCr 4:4:4 and YCbCr 4:2:2 signal
and I am interested in knowing what the EDGE will do with a 4:4:4 color
space?

My apologies if this has been answered.

Thanks,
Mike

Display: Pioneer PRO-151 60" Elite
Blu-ray player: OPPO BDP-93, Sony BDP-S1000ES
Processor: Onkyo PR-SC885
Amplifier: Emotiva IPS-1 150Wx7
Game Console: Xbox 360, Xbox One, PS4
Speakers: Mythos ST(Fronts), Mythos Ten(Center), Mythos One(Rears)
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post #642 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Answered a few times very recently in the thread.

Not really, notice my wording.
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post #643 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petmic10 View Post

Josh,

What does the EDGE do with a YCbCr 4:4:4 signal?

My Pioneer BDP-51FD can output a YCbCr 4:4:4 and YCbCr 4:2:2 signal
and I am interested in knowing what the EDGE will do with a 4:4:4 color
space?

4:4:4 has the same colorspace as 4:2:2, it's just been interpolated to full resolution. Why not send the Edge the 4:2:2 data direct from the disk, uninterpolated by your BD player? it just has to downsample back to 4:2:2 for processing. Most likely no loss of data, just extra data transferred and extra processing to no purpose...
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post #644 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

4:4:4 has the same colorspace as 4:2:2, it's just been interpolated to full resolution. Why not send the Edge the 4:2:2 data direct from the disk, uninterpolated by your BD player? it just has to downsample back to 4:2:2 for processing. Most likely no loss of data, just extra data transferred and extra processing to no purpose...

Thanks for the response.

My whole reason for sending a 4:4:4 signal is one of the Pioneer 51
features is upscaling 8 bit to 12 bit and I was under the impression
that the 4:4:4 setting in the pioneer would perform this upscaling?

I would like to have the ability to choose between the two.

Display: Pioneer PRO-151 60" Elite
Blu-ray player: OPPO BDP-93, Sony BDP-S1000ES
Processor: Onkyo PR-SC885
Amplifier: Emotiva IPS-1 150Wx7
Game Console: Xbox 360, Xbox One, PS4
Speakers: Mythos ST(Fronts), Mythos Ten(Center), Mythos One(Rears)
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post #645 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

What's the concern with lip sync? It's all covered quite well in the first post of this thread.

I think there is a legitimate cause for concern here about A/V sync. On the first page of this thread, there is a statement that in the Edge the audio will be delayed to match the video processing delay, and can also be delayed an additional amount, presumably to account for video processing delay in the display. The problem can arise when the AVR has a significant audio latency, such as my Integra DTC-9.8. The minimum audio delay is about 70 mS, and might be as much as 100 mS through HDMI, and my display has a single-frame delay of about 30 mS, so I can be stuck with audio 40 or 70 mS behind the video, with no way of correcting it.

That's why I would suggest implementing both a negative and positive audio delay offset in the audio output of the Edge. There's plenty of video delay margin, except perhaps in the Gaming mode, and that would allow those of us with large audio latency in our AVRs to sync up correctly.
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post #646 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

I think there is a legitimate cause for concern here about A/V sync. On the first page of this thread, there is a statement that in the Edge the audio will be delayed to match the video processing delay, and can also be delayed an additional amount, presumably to account for video processing delay in the display. The problem can arise when the AVR has a significant audio latency, such as my Integra DTC-9.8. The minimum audio delay is about 70 mS, and might be as much as 100 mS through HDMI, and my display has a single-frame delay of about 30 mS, so I can be stuck with audio 40 or 70 mS behind the video, with no way of correcting it.

That's why I would suggest implementing both a negative and positive audio delay offset in the audio output of the Edge. There's plenty of video delay margin, except perhaps in the Gaming mode, and that would allow those of us with large audio latency in our AVRs to sync up correctly.

While I'd welcome the addition to Edge, regarding the Integra 9.8 ... didn't the newest firmwares (not sure if it was main or DSP) drop the audio latency significantly?
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post #647 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 12:51 PM
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It seems that would have done that if it was a flaw found in many AVRs. Otherwise it seems the AVR manufacturer should fix it.
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post #648 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

That's why I would suggest implementing both a negative and positive audio delay offset in the audio output of the Edge. There's plenty of video delay margin, except perhaps in the Gaming mode, and that would allow those of us with large audio latency in our AVRs to sync up correctly.

If the EDGE works the same as the VP50/Pro, you *can* reduce the audio delay -- all the way to zero if you want. You cannot introduce video delay, however.
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post #649 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

While I'd welcome the addition to Edge, regarding the Integra 9.8 ... didn't the newest firmwares (not sure if it was main or DSP) drop the audio latency significantly?

There was a f/w fix that decreased the audio codec lock-in time substantially, but it is not unanimous that the throughput delay has been decreased. I have not measured it, since I am still back on 1.04. I was going to wait for the color encoder fix which was supposedly in the next f/w update, but that may not be as imminent as I had hoped...
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post #650 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

It seems that would have done that if it was a flaw found in many AVRs. Otherwise it seems the AVR manufacturer should fix it.

Any processing of audio can cause some delay. So if you are forcing the audio to be delayed to an AVR until the video processing is done, any latency in the AVR will cause some audio lag.

Typically a display is adding at least some delay, but its quite possible many AVRs have more than what the TV is doing.
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post #651 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

It seems that would have done that if it was a flaw found in many AVRs. Otherwise it seems the AVR manufacturer should fix it.

It is a flaw found in every AVR with DSP. DSP always introduces some audio latency, but it is the relative size of that delay compared to the video latency of the display that potentially produces a problem, if the Edge is used as the source switcher. In the case of the 9.8, the video delay through the Reon is quite similar to the audio delay through the DSP chain, so there is not usually a problem with the unit by itself. But if you move the video processing to a separate chain with the Edge and pre-delay the audio to compensate, then you have the problem I described.

Of course, the Edge could still be useful, even if this issue is not addressed, if it is placed after the AVR in the chain. Of course, the video delay would have to be constant then, since you would not be using the Edge audio HDMI port, and you would be adjusting the sync through the AVR's delay control. If the video latency were to vary with input format, for example, then we'd have a problem with a multiformat source, such as my TiVo S3.

It's potentially a mess, which could all be avoided if the "extra" audio delay had negative as well as positive values.
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post #652 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

... It's potentially a mess, which could all be avoided if the "extra" audio delay had negative as well as positive values.

I would like to see this too. Is it technically possible to implement this suggestion? If yes, I wonder how hard would it be to do?
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post #653 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCIFRTHS View Post

I would like to see this too. Is it technically possible to implement this suggestion? If yes, I wonder how hard would it be to do?

Like the VP50PRO, EDGE automatically puts a delay on the audio so that it is in sync with the processed video. The delay that EDGE puts on the audio signal CAN be removed so that the audio is passing through EDGE with no delay. This is user adjustable in 1 millisecond increments.

Josh Allen
DVDO Product Manager
Josh@DVDO.com
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post #654 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh@dvdo View Post

Like the VP50PRO, EDGE automatically puts a delay on the audio so that it is in sync with the processed video. The delay that EDGE puts on the audio signal CAN be removed so that the audio is passing through EDGE with no delay. This is user adjustable in 1 millisecond increments.

Thanks, Josh. Sounds like it will work fine, as long as it varies the audio delay with the internal video delay. Just as a concrete example, if the video delay were 90 mS in one video mode, and I set the audio delay down to 45 mS, then changed to a different video mode with a 70 mS video delay, the audio delay would go to 25 mS, right?
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post #655 of 7111 Old 08-20-2008, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyw View Post

Amazon pre-order price for the unit at $699!

very tempted....

price slashed even b4 launch date? What the.......
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post #656 of 7111 Old 08-21-2008, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by iMbEst View Post

price slashed even b4 launch date? What the.......

The edge has been price slashed already?...impossible.
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post #657 of 7111 Old 08-21-2008, 06:09 PM
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This is from the Amazon site and I suppose DVDO's as well:

"As a solution to this problem, Anchor Bay introduces PReP, an advanced video processing technology that reverts the progressive video signal output from source equipment to its original interlaced format. PReP then converts the interlaced signal to progressive format, this time applying the source, edge, and motion adaptive algorithms in its Precision Deinterlacing technology to eliminate jaggies, combing, and other degrading effects. PReP technology allows 480p, 576p, 1080p/50, 1080p/60, and other formats to be processed by this method."

So does this mean that already interlaced signals will not be made into progressive format? As in 480i turned into 480p, and so on?

Sorry I'm a noob! And sorry if this has been aswered already.

dudeman
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post #658 of 7111 Old 08-21-2008, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dudeman View Post

So does this mean that already interlaced signals will not be made into progressive format?

Of course not. It means other devices with inferior de-interlacing are corrected.
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post #659 of 7111 Old 08-21-2008, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dudeman View Post

This is from the Amazon site and I suppose DVDO's as well:

"As a solution to this problem, Anchor Bay introduces PReP, an advanced video processing technology that reverts the progressive video signal output from source equipment to its original interlaced format. PReP then converts the interlaced signal to progressive format, this time applying the source, edge, and motion adaptive algorithms in its Precision Deinterlacing technology to eliminate jaggies, combing, and other degrading effects. PReP technology allows 480p, 576p, 1080p/50, 1080p/60, and other formats to be processed by this method."

So does this mean that already interlaced signals will not be made into progressive format? As in 480i turned into 480p, and so on?

Sorry I'm a noob! And sorry if this has been aswered already.

dudeman

It's for source which are not able to output the incoming signal 'unmolested' - e.g. won't send 480i over HDMI, only 480p (PS3?) etc.
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post #660 of 7111 Old 08-21-2008, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dudeman View Post

So does this mean that already interlaced signals will not be made into progressive format? As in 480i turned into 480p, and so on?

To add to what Gary said, it means the signal is reinterlaced then deinterlaced again, but more better.

For example, 480p is reinterlaced to 480i then deinterlaced to 480p.

1080p is reinterlaced to 1080i and again deinterlaced to 1080p.
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