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post #721 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

There seems to be a lot that gets confused in this discussion of DVDs, connections and PReP. What people should want is a clean, 480i signal delivered over HDMI. A 480p signal that does good, or simply "obvious" so PReP can work its magic, deinterlacing is next best. Bad DVD players come in many resolutions, and people should want a decent one, or one that can be made decent.


I don't understand by what people mean by bad 480i de-interlacing from the DVD player?...if 480i is bad then 480p from a bad dvd player is just as bad...where in the signal do things improve?...480i/1080i both have the original interlkaced signals already...so why would the Vppro have a hard time de-interalcing something it's supposed to do perfectly?...and why would you pick 480p output of the player if it de-interlaces to 480p poorly also?....that doubles the conversion processing power required by the pro.

IMO 480i/1080i output present the original interlaced frames of the signal, nothing done bythe dvd player...the pro then does it's job de-interlacing the signal to progressive frames...thats it. Some might argue that the pro should upscale the image itself instead of the dvd player upscaling to 1080i...but if there's double the information in the signal already then all the pro has to do is reduce the frequency to match your set's output @ 720p etc. Of course the pro's algorythms could reduce t he quality of picture slightly due to bad upscaling algorythms from the player...but in most cases it could complement the upscaling algorythms of the players also, somthing it could lack due to different algorythms etc. So when coupled with another upscaling device you can have double the upscaling power without sacrifing the pro's resources to do it itself.

I find 1080i SD signals appear more smoother, especially when viewing subtitiles and letters on certain show/ commercials...there is less of a blocky effect I find compared to 480i SD signal that happens to introduce these artifacts pitifully.
















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post #722 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shingdaz View Post

Some might argue that the pro should upscale the image itself instead of the dvd player upscaling to 1080i...but if there's double the information in the signal already then all the pro has to do is reduce the frequency to match your set's output @ 720p etc. Of course the pro's algorythms could reduce t he quality of picture slightly due to bad upscaling algorythms from the player...but in most cases it could complement the upscaling algorythms of the players also, somthing it could lack due to different algorythms etc. So when coupled with another upscaling device you can have double the upscaling power without sacrifing the pro's resources to do it itself.

I find 1080i SD signals appear more smoother, especially when viewing subtitiles and letters on certain show/ commercials...there is less of a blocky effect I find compared to 480i SD signal that happens to introduce these artifacts pitifully.

- paragraph 1: that's an interesting theory, but incorrect. you always want to provide the "best" scaler/interlacer/deinterlacer in the chain the "cleanest" (i.e. the most unprocessed) signal. you don't "double your upscaling power" merely by putting 2 scalars in series.

- paragraph 2: not sure what you are referring to here. if you are referring to the same broadcast being scaled by your stb to 1080i vs your stb passing 480i straight through, the only thing this means is that the processing in the stb is "better" than the one in the tv...

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post #723 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shingdaz View Post

if 480i is bad then 480p from a bad dvd player is just as bad

Likely worse. De-interlacing is the difficult part and the primary reason people pay so much for processors like the DVDO whether it's de-interlacing an interlaced signal or PRePing a progressive signal.
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post #724 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shingdaz View Post

I don't understand by what people mean by bad 480i de-interlacing from the DVD player?...if 480i is bad then 480p from a bad dvd player is just as bad...where in the signal do things improve?...480i/1080i both have the original interlkaced signals already...so why would the Vppro have a hard time de-interalcing something it's supposed to do perfectly?...and why would you pick 480p output of the player if it de-interlaces to 480p poorly also?....that doubles the conversion processing power required by the pro.

Since most DVD players do not output 480i over HDMI but only 480P, PReP will reconsruct the original 480i and the deinterlace itself genenerally doing a better job than in the DVD.

If the original 480i signal is corrupt there is not much that can be done
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post #725 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dudeman View Post

Please, please elaborate for my benefit. The others here may know what you mean, but I would like to know your thoughts and experiences.

Thanks, for any feedback.

dudeman

A quality VP can improve most any signal that requires deinterlacing,scaling, or benefits from other post processing such as noise reduction. This includes just about any readily available signal out there.

Those with larger displays (or who sit closer to them) will likely see the most difference.

Improve the source signal and all the better.
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post #726 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by b00bie View Post

The Beta forum is on a DVDO website not AVS


Tom

If that is the case then they are doing a very good job of keeping it secret.

Clark
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post #727 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post

If that is the case then they are doing a very good job of keeping it secret.


I believe that is the idea
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post #728 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pia-chan View Post

It is advisable to not overemphasize the value of 480i over HDMI when choosing a DVD player to hook up to the EDGE. The picture generated by the EDGE from a crappy DVD player outputting 480i will still be inferior to a quality DVD player outputting 480p.

OK, how about a 480i HDMI outputting player like mine, a Pio 59AVi, that isn't a crappy outputting HDMI player? I assume it WILL be preferable to output 480i vs 480p then let the edge do it's PReP magic.

It will be interesting to test 480i HDMI, 480p HDMI and Component on this player (and A/B the XA-2 Reon of the same).

Regardless of Secret Forums for Betas (it's still secret if you don't have privileges to read it... at least from common sense) the EDGE seems like a genuine bargain.

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post #729 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

A quality VP can improve most any signal that requires deinterlacing,scaling, or benefits from other post processing such as noise reduction. This includes just about any readily available signal out there.

Those with larger displays (or who sit closer to them) will likely see the most difference.

Improve the source signal and all the better.

Well I really, really hope that's true. As far as I can tell my hr21 does a poor job of scaling. I have put the display in just scan mode and what I end up with is underscan and the edges of the picutre have all kinds of noise and are not straight. So I have to run the display in 16:9 mode as to avoid this horrible underscan. The display does a slightly better job of scaling but of course does nothing for the PQ. I have tried many different settings, but nothing works very well because of course the signal is crummy.

So if a VP can help this crummy signal, it will be great, as I can do nothing to send the VP a better signal. I don't need the VP for anything except dtv because as I mentioned, my htpc Blu-ray/HD DVD does an incredible job.

This is off topic a little, but I had a thought about satellite capture cards. Do you think that dtv SD would look any better going through such a card and being displayed by the Radeon graphics card in my htpc? I would think the Radeon with all of the Avivo, Anti Aliasing. Anistropic Filtering and color adjustments might clean up the picture. Everything that is displyed through my htpc over HDMI looks great.

Thanks for any input,

dudeman
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post #730 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

- paragraph 1: that's an interesting theory, but incorrect. you always want to provide the "best" scaler/interlacer/deinterlacer in the chain the "cleanest" (i.e. the most unprocessed) signal. you don't "double your upscaling power" merely by putting 2 scalars in series.

- paragraph 2: not sure what you are referring to here. if you are referring to the same broadcast being scaled by your stb to 1080i vs your stb passing 480i straight through, the only thing this means is that the processing in the stb is "better" than the one in the tv...



For the many who seem unconvinced:

There are many ways to "deinterlace" a 480i signal. For film-based content, that is interlaced properly to begin with, simple IVTC (inverse telecine) is all that is required. However, you can also get Bob, Weave and more advanced Motion Adaptive and Motion Compensated (I'm simplifying) algoritms. You want to feed ANY VP (not Edge-specific) a 480i signal from a 480i source because there has been potentially less bad deinterlacing (aka processing) applied to the signal.

And yes, it is possible to get a good 480i signal from a DVD player which would otherwise provide a mediocre deinterlaced signal (e.g., the original Oppo HDMI DVD player). It is also possible to get a bad 480i signal out of a DVD player where the 480p would be preferred (many DVD players do not create a "stable" 480i signal since it is essentially a 480p signal over HDMI - but that is a different topic).

Bill

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post #731 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudolpht View Post

OK, how about a 480i HDMI outputting player like mine, a Pio 59AVi, that isn't a crappy outputting HDMI player? I assume it WILL be preferable to output 480i vs 480p then let the edge do it's PReP magic.

In your case I would choose to output 480i, but I think you'll be unable to identify a difference in picture quality when you test 480p output to the EDGE.

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post #732 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petmic10 View Post

Josh,

What does the EDGE do with a YCbCr 4:4:4 signal?

My Pioneer BDP-51FD can output a YCbCr 4:4:4 and YCbCr 4:2:2 signal
and I am interested in knowing what the EDGE will do with a 4:4:4 color
space?

My apologies if this has been answered.

Thanks,
Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

4:4:4 has the same colorspace as 4:2:2, it's just been interpolated to full resolution. Why not send the Edge the 4:2:2 data direct from the disk, uninterpolated by your BD player? it just has to downsample back to 4:2:2 for processing. Most likely no loss of data, just extra data transferred and extra processing to no purpose...

Quote:
Originally Posted by petmic10 View Post

Thanks for the response.

My whole reason for sending a 4:4:4 signal is one of the Pioneer 51
features is upscaling 8 bit to 12 bit and I was under the impression
that the 4:4:4 setting in the pioneer would perform this upscaling?


I would like to have the ability to choose between the two.

I would still like to get Josh's take on what the EDGE does with
a 4:4:4 color spcae signal?

Can this be added with a firmware upgrade? or at least pass it through
untouched?

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post #733 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post

If that is the case then they are doing a very good job of keeping it secret.

Somehow that memo never made it to me...
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post #734 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pia-chan View Post

In your case I would choose to output 480i, but I think you'll be unable to identify a difference in picture quality when you test 480p output to the EDGE.

Looking forward to trying it

Tim
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post #735 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rudolpht View Post

Looking forward to trying it

Welcome sir.

To the EDGE.
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post #736 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post



For the many who seem unconvinced:

There are many ways to "deinterlace" a 480i signal. For film-based content, that is interlaced properly to begin with, simple IVTC (inverse telecine) is all that is required. However, you can also get Bob, Weave and more advanced Motion Adaptive and Motion Compensated (I'm simplifying) algoritms. You want to feed ANY VP (not Edge-specific) a 480i signal from a 480i source because there has been potentially less bad deinterlacing (aka processing) applied to the signal.

And yes, it is possible to get a good 480i signal from a DVD player which would otherwise provide a mediocre deinterlaced signal (e.g., the original Oppo HDMI DVD player). It is also possible to get a bad 480i signal out of a DVD player where the 480p would be preferred (many DVD players do not create a "stable" 480i signal since it is essentially a 480p signal over HDMI - but that is a different topic).

Bill

I thought bob, bob/weave, motion adaptive and motion compensated were methods of video deinterlacing (not film)?

Anyhow, I agree with everything you said except that.

However, I also think that it may be POSSIBLE to obtain identical PQ with the current PReP technology with either 480i or 480p output.

Disclaimer: this is based on reports from the VP50pro forum and does not suggest any personal experience of mine.
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post #737 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Disclaimer: this is based on reports from the VP50pro forum and does not suggest any personal experience of mine.

Nice

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post #738 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 06:53 PM
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This weekend I received an online retailer's Fall 2008 catalog in the mail and was surprised to find the EDGE on page 4. It seems strange to me that online retailers are already offering this product for sale. I understand the concept of a pre-order, but the EDGE is still in beta testing with no known release date, which obviously means there isn't a tentative ship/deliver date for potential customers.

I guess if there are folks out there that want to give these retailers a short term loan @ 0.00% interest, so be it.

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post #739 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 07:05 PM
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I'm sure DVDO has a target release for marketing purposes. There's probably some sort of time cushion built in as well.
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post #740 of 7111 Old 08-24-2008, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pia-chan View Post

This weekend I received an online retailer's Fall 2008 catalog in the mail and was surprised to find the EDGE on page 4. It seems strange to me that online retailers are already offering this product for sale. I understand the concept of a pre-order, but the EDGE is still in beta testing with no known release date, which obviously means there isn't a tentative ship/deliver date for potential customers.

I guess if there are folks out there that want to give these retailers a short term loan @ 0.00% interest, so be it.

Some retailers, and the only ones I would buy from, don't charge you until your item ships.

Do we really know how far along the testing is? Read Josh's post here.
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post #741 of 7111 Old 08-25-2008, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pia-chan View Post

This weekend I received an online retailer's Fall 2008 catalog in the mail and was surprised to find the EDGE on page 4. It seems strange to me that online retailers are already offering this product for sale. I understand the concept of a pre-order, but the EDGE is still in beta testing with no known release date, which obviously means there isn't a tentative ship/deliver date for potential customers.

What a nonsense. Of course there's a (more than tentative) release date - do you think companies develop products and release them randomly, whenever they suddenly think it's OK?
HINT: if there's something you don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist - there's a world beyond your bubble...

Quote:


I guess if there are folks out there that want to give these retailers a short term loan @ 0.00% interest, so be it.

You must be buying in some shady stores because any retailer I know won't charge you until they ship your order.
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post #742 of 7111 Old 08-25-2008, 05:12 AM
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Amazon certainly hasn't charged my card yet for my EDGE preorder through them.

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post #743 of 7111 Old 08-25-2008, 05:43 AM
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Amazon certainly hasn't charged my card yet for my EDGE preorder through them.

They can not by law.
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They can not by law.

Then many merchants break the law.

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post #745 of 7111 Old 08-25-2008, 06:48 AM
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They can not by law.

By which law?
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post #746 of 7111 Old 08-25-2008, 07:02 AM
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You must be buying in some shady stores because any retailer I know won't charge you until they ship your order.

well, then Menards, Lowes, and Home Depot all qualify as "shady stores", since every order I placed this summer (replacing what the river took away during our floods) required a hundred percent deposit. That indeed WAS charged to my cc.

otoh, DVDO has never charged my card until the item actually shipped.

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Watching this thread, and being a "newbie" to all of this, it seems to me that

1) One does not want to waste money on a video processor if one's goal is merely to upgrade a horribly compressed signal such as that which comes from a cable company.

2) The best application for a video processor is in upgrading a 480i DVD player's signal

If number 2 above is correct, then it seems to me that if one wants to guarantee elimination of any processing at all in the DVD player, modification of the player to have a Serial Digital Interface (SDI) output and utilization of processor that can accept an SDI input which the DVDO edge will not do, but other DVDO products will do, is the best choice.

Any expert thoughts on or corrections to my statements?
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post #748 of 7111 Old 08-25-2008, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by 1msPixel View Post

Watching this thread, and being a "newbie" to all of this, it seems to me that

1) One does not want to waste money on a video processor if one's goal is merely to upgrade a horribly compressed signal such as that which comes from a cable company.

2) The best application for a video processor is in upgrading a 480i DVD player's signal

If number 2 above is correct, then it seems to me that if one wants to guarantee elimination of any processing at all in the DVD player, modification of the player to have a Serial Digital Interface (SDI) output and utilization of processor that can accept an SDI input which the DVDO edge will not do, but other DVDO products will do, is the best choice.

Any expert thoughts on or corrections to my statements?

hi,

i disagree somewhat with your first point.........i hear stories of horribly compressed satellite signals but my experience with cable is that my vp50pro
is fantastic with basic cable.......huge improvement on my comcast channels as well as for DVDs

on the other hand, my experience is that comcast's signal is not as badly compressed as some satellite channels.........your mileage may vary
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post #749 of 7111 Old 08-25-2008, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by cat6man View Post

hi,

i disagree somewhat with your first point.........i hear stories of horribly compressed satellite signals but my experience with cable is that my vp50pro
is fantastic with basic cable.......huge improvement on my comcast channels as well as for DVDs

on the other hand, my experience is that comcast's signal is not as badly compressed as some satellite channels.........your mileage may vary

Your statement agrees with what others have told me. A VP may not do for cable what it can for DVD... but it is an improvement nonetheless.
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post #750 of 7111 Old 08-25-2008, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scsiraid View Post

Your statement agrees with what others have told me. A VP may not do for cable what it can for DVD... but it is an improvement nonetheless.

imho, i think it does as much if not more for my cable........it has made my basic, non-HD channels, actually enjoyable which is more than i ever expected.

i see none (as in zero) of the horrible motion artifacts often seen in tv displays at stores (usually due to compressed satellite channels).
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