DVDO EDGE !! - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 7106 Old 09-29-2008, 06:27 PM
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Anyone compared the Edge to the Oppo 983?

Seems quite a few people aren't happy with ABT scaling, but the Oppo 983 set at 720p is better than my display, although the display still has the final word since it's 1366x768. Of course it deinterlaces way better than my display too.

I already have a Algolith Flea and I think the Edge may be enough for me for a low budget solution. I just can't afford the Lumagen Radiance XD... at all. So I'd have deinterlacing and NR covered, CIH could be nice for future use. So really, just the lack of picture controls is my only possible issue as long as scaling is atleast as good as the Oppo 983. Mainly my uses would be Cable, SD DVD, Bluray/HD DVD (1080p24 -> 720p/1080i) and MAYBE once in a while the standard xbox.

I'm currently using my AVR, but it is limited to analog processing only. Denon 1909 with Faroudja 2310. SD cable through the Denon is better than my display, I think the Edge would be another step up.


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post #1172 of 7106 Old 09-29-2008, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

HTPC issues concern me. I have 2 home theater PCs, based on the Radeon 4850 with HDMI audio and video out. They work flawlessly going through an Octava HDMI switch, then either to an Onkyo 606 or a Denon 3808 before hitting a Sharp 32" LCD or a Sharp XV-Z 20000 projector. All of this is at 1080p/60. Could you describe your HTPC setup?

My HTPC setup is fairly simple, Core 2 Duo E4400, overclocked to 3GHz, Sapphire Radeon HD 2600XT 256MB PCI-Ex16, MyHD 130 Tuner card connected to antenna, and a Pioneer BD-rom drive.

The DVDO Edge works fine with the DVI from the tuner card, although I do have problems with the coax digital audio being dropped when changing channels or skipping through recordings. The Edge seems to clean up some 1080i material that doesn't look so good, like PBS HD.

The problem is with the output from the Radeon. If I boot with the HTPC connected to the Edge I get to the desktop but have sync issues when I start moving the mouse cursor. I don't know how that's related to the Edge, but I don't have problems when the HTPC is connected thru my Pioneer AVR or direct to my Samsung 5271. Furthermore if I boot with the HTPC connected to the Samsung, then put everything instandby and switch the HDMI cable from the TV input to the Edge input and turn everything back on, life is good, works great... until I have to reboot the HTPC. Fortunately I rarely reboot the PC.

Edit - I should mention I keep my desktop res at 1920x1080 60Hz.

Several other people in the beta reported problems with PC video cards, but I don't know specifically which ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I assume the Harmony code issues will be resolved before long, as Edge codes are incorporated into the Harmony database.

Commands from the included remote were easily learned on my Harmony 670. However, DVDO gave us the discrete codes as Pronto format hex codes. Getting the codes into a Harmony remote was frustrating to say the least. The harmony software doesn't let you do it directly, but there is a way to convert the pronto codes, then you need to have a second learning remote and alot of time to kill. I went that route. You can also email the codes to Logitech and they will add them to your account. Several other testers found that Logitech seemed to drag their feet getting commands added and didn't add all codes requested.

Josh was working with Logitech to add the Edge to the database, I believe most discrete codes will be there but the test patterns will not be in the database, AFAIK.

Overall, if it wasn't for the HTPC video issues, and the problems with coax digital audio, it would be an excellent Audio/video/HDMI hub. I think the scaling is as good as the XA2, with the added bonus of being able to add more sources.

Brian
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post #1173 of 7106 Old 09-29-2008, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rh83733 View Post

Difficult to answer.

Do you need an AV Hub? Do you need to do a lot of scaling?

Based on my experience with EDGE at the moment, Id wait and see how the product develops with software updates.

Rh: I would love to have a way of upscaling our regular TV source - cable or satbox. I have a 47" LCD panel and will be moving to 52" or larger.

My other solution was to think about a VP50 Pro. Not sure the scaling/processing is any better on that either.

Hence my question to you.
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post #1174 of 7106 Old 09-29-2008, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scsiraid View Post

How would you contrast Edge's video peformance vs the Reon in your Integra?


The Edge has better film deinterlacing both for 1080i and 480i sources. This is looking at both real world material and HQV test discs. The Edge is faster at picking up the sequence and doesn't lose the lock like the Integra (Reon).

For video deinterlacing, they are very comparable. The only real difference I've seen was with the US Open (1080i USA and CBS). Jaggies on the boundary lines seemed more noticeable with the Edge and there was occasional tearing with motion of the players. It's possible this was source related and not the Edge. I don't know. I can tell you I've seen absolutely no problems with 1080i football or any other 1080i video sources since.

I see very little noise with the Edge. I see very little with the Reon either.

The Edge doesn't suffer from the HD/SD colorspace error like the Reon does, although I can't say I was ever really bothered by this with the Integra.
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post #1175 of 7106 Old 09-29-2008, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scsiraid View Post

Is there a 'list' of AVR's impacted by the MPCM issue? I have an Onkyo 875 and am planning to bypass it for video by using the Audio Only HDMI. My PS3 obviously expects to output MPCM for BD. I guess Ill find out tomorrow when my Edge arrives.

I have an Onkyo 805, v1.06 and have the LPCM issue. I've heard that v1.08 makes it WORSE, so I haven't flashed it yet...
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post #1176 of 7106 Old 09-29-2008, 09:02 PM
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It's fine with my Denon 3808.
PS3>HDMI 1.3 Switch>EDGE>Denon 3808>Samsung LED DLP

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post #1177 of 7106 Old 09-29-2008, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

... For video deinterlacing, they are very comparable. The only real difference I've seen was with the US Open (1080i USA and CBS). Jaggies on the boundary lines seemed more noticeable with the Edge and there was occasional tearing with motion of the players. It's possible this was source related and not the Edge. I don't know. I can tell you I've seen absolutely no problems with 1080i football or any other 1080i video sources since. ...

Since what? Any earlier version of the Edge firmware
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post #1178 of 7106 Old 09-29-2008, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklac View Post

... Seems quite a few people aren't happy with ABT scaling, ...

Really? I haven't seen those posts. Would you provide a link?
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post #1179 of 7106 Old 09-29-2008, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee View Post

Unfortunately, there are a few things about the beta process that I would like to have discussed, but I don't think I'm allowed to talk about that.

Um, I think you've already covered everything

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post #1180 of 7106 Old 09-29-2008, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Could anyone else chime in on the brightness controls? One of the things I expected to be able to do was fairly precise brightness level adjustment for my different sources. Is this something I shouldn't expect to have much control over?

I found that I needed to make adjustments at the source (if it has a brightness setting) or at the TV (if the source doesn't have a brightness setting) to get the brightness level properly dialed in. As is, the EDGE's intervals are too wide to achieve an optimum setting unless you get lucky.

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post #1181 of 7106 Old 09-29-2008, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pia-chan View Post

Um, I think you've already covered everything

I was quite careful to keep my comments about the EDGE in its current state with the v51 shipping firmware.

What I meant is that I would have liked to discuss how the beta process itself went (testing etc.) but I don't think I'm allowed to.
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post #1182 of 7106 Old 09-29-2008, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Could anyone else chime in on the brightness controls? One of the things I expected to be able to do was fairly precise brightness level adjustment for my different sources. Is this something I shouldn't expect to have much control over?

Fine adjustment with EDGE currently isnt possible. +/- 1 on brightness/colour/contrast/tint is equivalent to about +/- 5 or 6 on my panasonic plasma tv (th42pv800b)

Ive calibrated everything using the tv controls and just output with EDGE set to 0 for everything...its a real shame.
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post #1183 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile20 View Post

Rh: I would love to have a way of upscaling our regular TV source - cable or satbox. I have a 47" LCD panel and will be moving to 52" or larger.

My other solution was to think about a VP50 Pro. Not sure the scaling/processing is any better on that either.

Hence my question to you.

Ok well i havent ever used a vp50pro but from reading what others have said in this thread I believe the output from EDGE and vp50pro is similar however the EDGE allows far less control over some options...colourspace, pc levels etc. I think (but again im no expert) the vp50pro has less inputs and currently doesnt handle HD audio very well (or maybe at all..not sure). As far as I know the scaling/processing on both machines is identical..but remember the scaling on EDGE is currently not great in many peoples opinions here...including mine. Its not horrid but Its not WoW!

If it were my money, based on what Ive read id go for an EDGE over a VP50pro....however I feel the EDGE still is far from the great product it could be, and hence my comment to maybe wait a bit to see how EDGE develops with software upgrades. Control over certain stuff like colourspace/pc levels is really missed, and the processing is still showing average results with jaggies/stuttering etc in some content. All of this could be dramatically improved with software and the EDGE could become something nice.

In its current state I think EDGE does some nice stuff for tv source material, it definitely makes it a bit better and the missing stuff we have mentioned doesnt effect this type of source massively. If you are just buying to improve tv then Id say go for an EDGE now and keep an eye on the software download pages, your machine could get a load better over time. Im sure EDGE will do a better job than the native processing in your LCD tv.

If you are buying as a total video processor option then perhaps hold back a bit for a few months and see if improvements are made in areas that would be useful.

Russ
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post #1184 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by DCIFRTHS View Post

Really? I haven't seen those posts. Would you provide a link?

Read pages 37 onwards. Scaling could be a lot better.
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post #1185 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rh83733 View Post

Read pages 37 onwards. Scaling could be a lot better.

I only have 20 pages available...
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post #1186 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by DCIFRTHS View Post

I only have 20 pages available...

On this thread? MMmmm well read anything posted since the response saying EDGE Beta was over.

Basically the scaling on EDGE seems to be not as good as other products people have used..Lumagen for example. I myself have not done direct comparisons so its best if people comment themselves.

Russ
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post #1187 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rh83733 View Post

On this thread? MMmmm well read anything posted since the response saying EDGE Beta was over.

Basically the scaling on EDGE seems to be not as good as other products people have used..Lumagen for example. I myself have not done direct comparisons so its best if people comment themselves.

Russ


I forgot to add the smiley. I have more than the default number of "posts per page" set in my forum preferences. Thanks for responding though!
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post #1188 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee View Post

In the shipping firmware, there is no auto-switching of refresh rates, so you have to manually change between, say, 1080p24/50/60 depending on what source you are watching. (Blu-Ray, PAL content, NTSC content etc.) I expect this to change in the very near future, however. (I can't say anything more than that)

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee View Post

I was quite careful to keep my comments about the EDGE in its current state with the v51 shipping firmware.

Really? You're lucky I'm not Anchor Bay's legal counsel

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post #1189 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 03:03 AM
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I think I would mostly agree with Andrewfee's review. EDGE is a great AV hub, in that you can plug in everything you've got and let it do it's thing. It's nice to have everything controlled from a central unit. However, it's a shame you can't force the second HDMI output to be a clone of the first HDMI output so you can feed two screens at once.

The biggest problem for me with EDGE is the scaling is just not as good as Lumagen's scaling. As Andrew stated, you get subtle ringing around everything, and the only way to minimise this is to reduce the detail and edge controls to negative values, but this loses details and makes things too soft. However, the scaling is exactly the same as you'd see on the more expensive VP50pro by all accounts.

Test patterns being locked away so only Pronto users can get to them is very annoying as well. Would have been nice for them to put these deep in a menu someplace.

As Andrew also said, not being able to output YCC is a real pain too. I don't like having it convert to RGB for everything.

Having said all that though, it's definitely made the picture on my JVC and my Samsung look better. It removes a fair few motion artefacts on the HD100, and of course greatly improves on the Samsung plasma processing.

I would say if you want a relatively inexpensive AV hub that has some half decent processing, then EDGE is great. Otherwise, if you're just looking for something to vastly improve your picture quality, then get a secondhand HDP or HDQ from Lumagen. You'd be able to get these for about the same price.
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post #1190 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Pia-chan View Post

Really? You're lucky I'm not Anchor Bay's legal counsel

You've certainly been acting like you are... give it a rest please. It's not your responsibility.


Moving swiftly on, I think it's prudent to point out that software is still being developed, and the beta testers will be continuing to test new software. So people who get their production units should continue to check Anchor Bay's EDGE homepage to get the software as its released.
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post #1191 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by eiren View Post

Otherwise, if you're just looking for something to vastly improve your picture quality, then get a secondhand HDP or HDQ from Lumagen. You'd be able to get these for about the same price.

Really? Concentrating only on deinterlacing and scaling, you think an HDP can get similar or better results?


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post #1192 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklac View Post

Really? Concentrating only on deinterlacing and scaling, you think an HDP can get similar or better results?

No. The deinterlacing on the HDP is not as advanced.

I don't see the "scaling problems" others here are seeing. Scaling is a relatively straightforward process. It may be that these artifacts some are seeing are coming from elsewhere. Most of the folks having these issues are from the UK it seems. Maybe some connection there w/PAL sources, don't know.
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post #1193 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklac View Post

Really? Concentrating only on deinterlacing and scaling, you think an HDP can get similar or better results?

Depends on the source really. The EDGE certainly does video deinterlacing much better than the older Lumagens, however for film deinterlacing was about the same and for general scaling... the HDP I compared in an a/b test was much better than EDGE.

There's some photos here from a Radiance & VP50pro comparison that was done on these forums that illustrates the difference perfectly (i.e they are exactly the same):

EDGE:




HDP/Lumagen:



There are pros and cons for each obviously, i.e. older Lumagens can't take a 1080/60 input, only 1080/24 input etc. EDGE has a far nicer interface, and really integrates well into a system. It passes HD audio very nicely (with the exception of a few makes & models of amp/processors).

If DVDO can get the scaling and PQ to be as good as the older Lumagen models, then they've got a World beating product. Hopefully we can get them there.
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post #1194 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

The Edge has better film deinterlacing both for 1080i and 480i sources. This is looking at both real world material and HQV test discs. The Edge is faster at picking up the sequence and doesn't lose the lock like the Integra (Reon).

For video deinterlacing, they are very comparable. The only real difference I've seen was with the US Open (1080i USA and CBS). Jaggies on the boundary lines seemed more noticeable with the Edge and there was occasional tearing with motion of the players. It's possible this was source related and not the Edge. I don't know. I can tell you I've seen absolutely no problems with 1080i football or any other 1080i video sources since.

I see very little noise with the Edge. I see very little with the Reon either.

The Edge doesn't suffer from the HD/SD colorspace error like the Reon does, although I can't say I was ever really bothered by this with the Integra.

With the US open it was source related. If I take the EDGE or VP50pro out of my video chain with the US Open it looks terrible with my Samsung sets and Toshiba sets. It looks terrible with the Gefen scaler and whats in my Denon 3808.
But once I put the EDGE or VP50pro back in the video chain, at least 90% of the crap I saw goes away.

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post #1195 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

I don't see the "scaling problems" others here are seeing. Scaling is a relatively straightforward process. It may be that these artifacts some are seeing are coming from elsewhere. Most of the folks having these issues are from the UK it seems. Maybe some connection there w/PAL sources, don't know.


I don't see problems in my setup either. I defnitely don't see ringing as long as Edge enhancment is low or off like one or zero. I rarely watch SD content, only one show a week but I haven't noticed anything from that. Most of my content I watch is 720P, 1080i, and 1080P24 and I've seen no problems with jaggies etc, with that content.

One thing for sure is that if I take the EDGE out of the video chain and use my Samsung LCD, LED DLP, or Toshiba set internal processing the picture looks bad compared to what comes out of the EDGE. EVEN using the GEFen HTS or the Denon3808 scaling, those two look terrible in comparison to what comes out of my EDGE or VP50 pro.

And for the price, the EDGE is an amazing value. It's the best bang for the buck.

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post #1196 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 04:34 AM
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I think we are splitting hairs on the Lumagen/DVDO comparison. I think it is generally accepted that Lumagen has state of the art scaling while ABT has state of the art deinterlacing. Combining scaling and deinterlacing both are excellent products and beat most everything else that is out there.

Other than those who watch test patterns I think it would be difficult to see the differences in the real world.

As another point someone earlier asked how The EDGE compares to the upscaling in the Oppo 983. The Oppo uses the same ABT technology and is considered the best upscaling DVD player so you can draw your own conclusion.
I have not used the Oppo so I have no first hand opinion.

My Oppo 980H at 480i into the EDGE results in an excellent picture.

I also think that those expecting a "wow" will be disappointed. The real wow is getting your first HD display.
At that point many become unhappy with SD sources.

The EDGE will improve SD sources however it will not remove all (some but not all) the garbage common to cable/satellite.
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post #1197 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 04:35 AM
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Has anyone had any audio troubles with any Onkyo models? I have the Onkyo Pro 885, and I'm hoping audio, from the HDMI audio only jack, will work without a hitch when bitstreaming.
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post #1198 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 04:50 AM
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Could somebody expand on what the Multichannel PCM problem is? Does it just not work at all or what? I have an Onkyo 875 so it would seem that I will be affected. I sure hope a FW fix is on the way.....
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post #1199 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlm10541 View Post

I think we are splitting hairs on the Lumagen/DVDO comparison. I think it is generally accepted that Lumagen has state of the art scaling while ABT has state of the art deinterlacing. Combining scaling and deinterlacing both are excellent products and beat most everything else that is out there.

Other than those who watch test patterns I think it would be difficult to see the differences in the real world.

As another point someone earlier asked how The EDGE compares to the upscaling in the Oppo 983. The Oppo uses the same ABT technology and is considered the best upscaling DVD player so you can draw your own conclusion.
I have not used the Oppo so I have no first hand opinion.

My Oppo 980H at 480i into the EDGE results in an excellent picture.

I also think that those expecting a "wow" will be disappointed. The real wow is getting your first HD display.
At that point many become unhappy with SD sources.

The EDGE will improve SD sources however it will not remove all (some but not all) the garbage common to cable/satellite.

Regarding the Oppo and the Edge using the same tech. . . would it make a diff that the oppo uses a 2 chip solution vs the edge using a 1 chip solution.

Jimi
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post #1200 of 7106 Old 09-30-2008, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimim View Post

Regarding the Oppo and the Edge using the same tech. . . would it make a diff that the oppo uses a 2 chip solution vs the edge using a 1 chip solution.

Jimi

The single chip solution offers more features than the 2 chip. However, Oppo is not enabling any of the additonal functionality in the single chip 983's.
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