Video Processor Wishlist for 2009/2010 - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 57 Old 05-28-2009, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

3 HD-SDI inputs are a must for videophiles, if Lumagen comes out with a Radiance with 2 or 3 HD-SDI inputs I will buy it, simple as that

-Gary

I don't think you'll argue this with me: VPs are a niche market, and SDI is a niche of VP users.

So while I do think there are customers that want HD-SDI, I don't think burdening all users with the cost of these inputs makes sense. As an option, I think SDI inputs (and outputs) do make sense and allow the manufacturer to target other markets, like broadcast and post-production.

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post #32 of 57 Old 05-28-2009, 08:28 PM
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of course Josh, should have said as a option, like the VP50pro

no conversion BS though, straight inputs

-Gary
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post #33 of 57 Old 05-28-2009, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Fine, we can allow HD-SDIs as an option...

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post #34 of 57 Old 05-29-2009, 02:01 AM
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Hi.

An automatic calibration.

regards

I'm french .... sorry for my english
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post #35 of 57 Old 05-29-2009, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshA View Post

It is just black coming in from the sides. I completely agree that a curtain that looked like fabric (like the classic red velvet), or user selectable presets and the ability to upload your own, or another user's creation, would be a much nicer alternative.

Exactly, just black is not really a curtain and I do not think that moving black bars from the left and the right are that impressive.
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post #36 of 57 Old 05-29-2009, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshA View Post

I don't think you'll argue this with me: VPs are a niche market, and SDI is a niche of VP users.

So while I do think there are customers that want HD-SDI, I don't think burdening all users with the cost of these inputs makes sense. As an option, I think SDI inputs (and outputs) do make sense and allow the manufacturer to target other markets, like broadcast and post-production.

I depends on the add on costs and the costs of development. Ideally both would be covered once a certain number of units with HD-SDI add-on has been sold.

VP's are a niche indeed but if you are serving that niche with an expensive product it is foolish not to cater to the niche market that by definition might have a few unusual requests as compared to the mainstream. Another consideration is the competition: There are already two companies that offer HD-SDI so a product that does not even offer HD-SDI as an add-on would be at an immediate disadvantage in the above 3000$ price range.
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post #37 of 57 Old 05-29-2009, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post

I depends on the add on costs and the costs of development. Ideally both would be covered once a certain number of units with HD-SDI add-on has been sold.

VP's are a niche indeed but if you are serving that niche with an expensive product it is foolish not to cater to the niche market that by definition might have a few unusual requests as compared to the mainstream. Another consideration is the competition: There are already two companies that offer HD-SDI so a product that does not even offer HD-SDI as an add-on would be at an immediate disadvantage in the above 3000$ price range.

Very good point. We are easily around or over the 3K mark...

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post #38 of 57 Old 05-29-2009, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post

VP's are a niche indeed but if you are serving that niche with an expensive product it is foolish not to cater to the niche market that by definition might have a few unusual requests as compared to the mainstream. Another consideration is the competition: There are already two companies that offer HD-SDI so a product that does not even offer HD-SDI as an add-on would be at an immediate disadvantage in the above 3000$ price range.

I agree and disagree. VPs are a niche market but less than 10%, and more along the lines of 2-3% of VP users have SDI sources that they are still using. So while you may be targeting a niche market, VP users, SDI is still a connection that most of these users don't use and as proven by the sales of the Radiance, the lack of this connection is not a deal-breaker for most. I really do not see this as a way to increase consumer sales, but as a way to target different markets, where the solutions are much more expensive than our toys.

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post #39 of 57 Old 05-30-2009, 03:48 AM
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automatic lip-sync that has been perfected would be nice
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post #40 of 57 Old 05-30-2009, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshA View Post

I agree and disagree. VPs are a niche market but less than 10%, and more along the lines of 2-3% of VP users have SDI sources that they are still using. So while you may be targeting a niche market, VP users, SDI is still a connection that most of these users don't use and as proven by the sales of the Radiance, the lack of this connection is not a deal-breaker for most. I really do not see this as a way to increase consumer sales, but as a way to target different markets, where the solutions are much more expensive than our toys.

The simple question for a company like Lumagen that produces the Radiance would be: How many sales are they losing compared to the VP50Pro and the Crystalios because of the lack of (HD-)SDI and how much of an effort would they have to make to include an (HD-)SDI option?

I am pretty sure that more than 2 or 3% of Crystalio 2, Vigatec and DVDO VP50(pro) users still use some sort of SDI. Of course the Radiance users did not have a chance - they could not use their SDI sources without an external converter even if they wanted to.

Also it is only just now that there is a growing interest and range of products and therefore demand for HD-SDI modified players so it is hard to predict what those percentages will be in a year or two.
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post #41 of 57 Old 05-30-2009, 07:53 PM
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I just wish my VP manufacturer would concentrate on taking the firmware for its current product as far as it can go, and then say so. The 50Pro will be my last video processor.

"My interest in home theater is not only that it annoys the wife, but if it was, then that would be enough"
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post #42 of 57 Old 05-31-2009, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by gulliBELL View Post

I just wish my VP manufacturer would concentrate on taking the firmware for its current product as far as it can go, and then say so. The 50Pro will be my last video processor.

I get the impression that's what Lumagen does.
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post #43 of 57 Old 06-06-2009, 06:55 AM
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Along with curtain control I'd like to have a trigger output to raise and lower the screen. This along with two outputs capable of being seperatly calibrated, having different resolutions, blah blah blah. It would be nice for those with a FP behind a PJ screen.

Quality conversion of PAL and the various NTSCs (and maybe even SECAM).

HDMI to component or RGB.

110/220 power supply.

RS232/Ethernet controllable.

Really good comb filter for LD sources.

If your going to have 120hz output with dark frame you might as well include the other rate conversions methods like interpolation.

I know some of this allready exists... but I wouldn't want anything to get left out.

-Sean
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post #44 of 57 Old 06-07-2009, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Good ones.

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post #45 of 57 Old 06-07-2009, 03:51 PM
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Bye the way: we're not too far from DVDO's annual VP announcement. I think we got new processors or updates on a yearly basis since back in the iScan days now. I hope the financial crisis didn't hit them too hard. I'd really miss a new round of upgrades - even if I'm not sure if I jumped on the upgrade train this year....
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post #46 of 57 Old 06-07-2009, 06:40 PM
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I think future video processors have to add a lot more value add above and beyond the actual processing chip in order to stay relevant. I am noticing that a lot of the VPs on the market are basically licensing IP from someone else, and those others (realta, vrs, etc.) see the writing on the wall and are doing everything they can to get their ICs into as many products as possible.

So it may not be far off that my BD player, HD set top box, projector and receiver all have excellent video processing capability... then why do I need a standalone video processor?

One thing I'd like to see are VPs that make a stronger effort to source video from PC and internet sources, process/clean them, and send them on. The skill set to do this seems not too far off from the embedded software developer skill set that I would imagine VP companies already have. And while I don't see quite so much need to have my top notch bluray discs cleaned up, something that improves those horrid youtube videos would be quite welcome.
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post #47 of 57 Old 06-18-2009, 11:23 AM
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VPs started as scalers since the old analog days. Digital was the first death knell, 1080p is the death rattle. No need to scale anything since it's now native rate.

The ONLY salvation for any of these companies that are still around is to look at unified control of the home theater. That means a killer remote control (perhaps based on the iPod Touch) + a universal IR/RF command library to finally unify any and all components.

AV Shadow from http://www.unify4life.com/ seems promising, if they ever get a better interface (sorry, blackberry doesn't go with home theater).

I liked the other ideas (automated lip sync). I'd also like to add an Audyssey-like room calibration tool and perhaps a video calibration tool using a USB/digital camera plug in.

The software might be so complex that it'd have to be a MediaCenter PC.
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post #48 of 57 Old 06-18-2009, 11:46 AM
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A Lumagen RadiancePro model would probably include two HD-SDI inputs. At least that is the current thinking.

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post #49 of 57 Old 06-20-2009, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

3 HD-SDI inputs are a must for videophiles, if Lumagen comes out with a Radiance with 2 or 3 HD-SDI inputs I will buy it, simple as that

I'm curious, when you mod a Blu-Ray player for HD-SDI, do you get 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 out?

If you're getting 4:2:2 out, what's the advantage of HD-SDI, purely from an image quality standpoint? (I realise HD-SDI is a more robust connection)



As for a video processor wishlist? These days, a VP is becoming less necessary, and I find it hard to justify that kind of money. But, my wishlist would be

Constant audio delay. With some (all?) VPs, the processing delay is dependant on the input signal. Find what the slowest is (60Hz?) and adjust all inputs to match. Specify the exact audio delay required. If it's supported, read the display's lip-sync correction data and factor that in as well. (I don't know what exactly the HDMI lip-sync feature supports; can it actually control an AV amp's delay setting? If so, do that too)


Support film reclocking. Strip 3:2 pulldown from NTSC content and output it at 24Hz. Slow down PAL from 25fps to 24Hz and resample audio. (with optional pitch correction) HTPCs can do this, why not VPs? (I believe if you're outputting analogue audio, you can actually slow down PAL audio without resampling/quality loss with some soundcards that support custom output rates)

I'm not sure if this is a PC-only issue, but I've been told that Blu-Ray should actually be played back at 24.000Hz instead of 23.976 if you want bit-perfect 48kHz audio. (my understanding is that you either have the sound slightly out of sync at 48kHz, or have to resample it if you're playing at 23.976) If that's the case, also support speeding up Blu-Ray to 24fps. Again, HTPCs can do this no problem.


True Passthrough. Two different game modes would be nice. One that is a complete passthrough with zero additional delay (or at most 16ms) and another that supports scaling/deinterlacing if necessary. (1080p in > 1080p out would have no delay, 720p in > 1080p out would have the scaling delay, but bypass things like noise reduction)


Matrix Switching. Two video outputs that can output either the same thing on both, or something different on each. Independent output settings for each display. This would basically mean it's two VPs in one though, so more realistically it would have two mirrored outputs, possibly allowing each to have their own resolution.


None of that 4:2:2 crap. Every stage of the image processing should be done in 4:4:4, keeping the full resolution from sources. It was obvious on a 17″ CRT, it's just as obvious on my 120″ projection screen, with Lumagen and DVDO processors.

Yes, MPEG video is typically 4:2:0, but computer/game/OSDs are rendered in 4:4:4 and the quality loss is unacceptable given the price of some of these VPs.


At least 16-bit internal processing. It's my understanding that you need to have at least 16-bit internal processing to avoid rounding when converting 8-bit YCC sources to RGB, and 32-bit FP if you're doing any processing in linear light. With the deep colour spec supporting 16-bit, why not make use of it?

I've seen posterisation caused by both Lumagen and DVDO VPs on CRT, so it's definitely not enough precision yet. (note: this may not be an issue with most/all digital displays, as you could send them a perfect signal and it'd probably end up posterised to some degree)

Obviously have some good dither algorithms for when the output is anything less than 16-bit.


Full 3D LUT calibration. If we're wishing, it will support a USB (or RS232) connection to various popular meters and do a fully automated calibration with as much precision as possible. It won't just measure red/green/blue and greyscale in 10 steps. It'll go through a whole range of hues/saturations to map out the display's linearity and then correct for it as much as it possibly can, with you being able to specify the target beforehand. (NTSC, PAL, HD co-ordinates, custom. x.x gamma curve, custom curves etc.)

Dreaming a little less, perhaps it would require a PC hook-up to either its own application or something like CalMAN. (as CalMAN already has the meter support there, and automation features)


Audio Output. Maybe it's just me, but I'd find it useful to have at least a stereo output jack from a VP, or even a 7.1 analogue output. Receivers are becoming more like VPs, why not make VPs more like receivers? Use whatever amplifiers you wish for driving the speakers, have the VP do all the audio decoding as well as video.


Make it simple. The interface should look nice, options should be clear. The remote layout should make sense to anyone that isn't sitting next to an opened manual.

I can cope with VPs just fine, but they're not the most user-friendly devices out there. It's just nice when the user experience has some thought put into it, as well as all the technology running in the background. The EDGE is a good step towards this I feel.


Curtain. Just to keep Joe quiet.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
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post #50 of 57 Old 06-20-2009, 05:05 PM
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Constant audio delay. With some (all?) VPs, the processing delay is dependant on the input signal.....

But you have to admit that the DVDO solutions are about perfect in this aspect already. Every kind of signal is perfectly adjusted, no matter if it's a fast processed videogame signal (6ms) to 3+ frames processing of SD interlaced signals (DVD). You can add your display's delay by hand to that to get a real perfect lip-sync experience.

Quote:


Support film reclocking. Strip 3:2 pulldown from NTSC content and output it at 24Hz.

All current and last gen processors do that, don't they ? I have used this for years for NTSC SDI input from my DVD Player.

Quote:


Slow down PAL from 25fps to 24Hz and resample audio. (with optional pitch correction) HTPCs can do this, why not VPs?

That's because the VP cannot tell the DVD player to slowdown playback (which is how it works on PCs). A solution on a VP would be a large buffer (HDD) to store the signal prior to processing, but that would cause copyright problems, add more delay and need LOTS of storage (just think about the datarate of uncompressed SDI data) which would eventually make the VP more expensive and more exposed to failure over time. Is this really worth it ? I could think of 25fps playback with a pitch correction for audio only.

Besides these points you're absolutely right. I would simply expect a good VP to replace all my other processing gear and not only parts of it. The hardware list is getting longer and longer, with different processors for different kinds of signals, with matrix switches for component and HDMI and god know what else..... Give me a $5000 machine to replace it all and I'd buy it in a hearbeat.
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post #51 of 57 Old 06-20-2009, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

But you have to admit that the DVDO solutions are about perfect in this aspect already. Every kind of signal is perfectly adjusted, no matter if it's a fast processed videogame signal (6ms) to 3+ frames processing of SD interlaced signals (DVD). You can add your display's delay by hand to that to get a real perfect lip-sync experience.

Well, I was thinking more about factoring in the display's delay to get things perfect as, presumably, that changes with refresh rate as well. Maybe it's just me, but I've never been able to get perfect lip-sync. (it'd be nice if manufacturers just put the exact delay in the specs) Perhaps all that's necessary is adding support for the HDMI lip-sync spec?

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Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

All current and last gen processors do that, don't they ? I have used this for years for NTSC SDI input from my DVD Player.

It was more the PAL stuff that bothered me to be honest. I didn't think NTSC > 24Hz was really perfect yet. If it is, forget that. (I don't think I've actually watched anything NTSC since getting a 24Hz capable display)

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That's because the VP cannot tell the DVD player to slowdown playback (which is how it works on PCs). A solution on a VP would be a large buffer (HDD) to store the signal prior to processing, but that would cause copyright problems, add more delay and need LOTS of storage (just think about the datarate of uncompressed SDI data).

Good point; I didn't really think that one out. It's more to do with the fact that I live in a PAL territory and it's annoying watching PAL content at 25fps. (I've pretty much stopped watching broadcast stuff rather than DVD now)

Would it really be that much storage to buffer a couple of hours' content? Drives are pretty cheap these days. (could be optional, just throw in a SATA drive and it tells you how long it can buffer)

But yeah it doesn't really seem feasible. I guess I'll have to start watching only PAL DVDs (or Blu-Ray if available) or transferring everything off my PVR to my HTPC (at 1.5MB/sec, ugh)
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post #52 of 57 Old 06-20-2009, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by andrewfee View Post

None of that 4:2:2 crap. Every stage of the image processing should be done in 4:4:4, keeping the full resolution from sources. It was obvious on a 17″ CRT, it's just as obvious on my 120″ projection screen, with Lumagen and DVDO processors.

Yes, MPEG video is typically 4:2:0, but computer/game/OSDs are rendered in 4:4:4 and the quality loss is unacceptable given the price of some of these VPs.

Good god, yes. Seconded. I can't even understand why people put up with having a multi-thousand dollar VP throw away 1/3 of the resolution information (RGB -> YUV -> Y U/2 V/2) of their videogame and computer content.
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post #53 of 57 Old 06-21-2009, 07:29 AM
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My dream video processor :


6 or more HDMI inputs
2 composite
2 Y/C
2 YUV or RGBVH
1 RGBVH high end output (BNC)
2 HDMI A/V output zone1 and zone2 independant
1 dedicated audio only extra HDMI out
Optional 3 HD-SDI inputs

Best processing available, latest VXP for example + some proprietary filters like those found in the Flea.
Deepcolor inner processing, 10, 12 and 16, selectable or EDID auto
All crazy ratio managment imaginable
Good, complet and easy to use CMS
Easy to use and nice OSD (CIIish could be just great)
Modular to get it hardware upgradable (Why not Algogear like boxe)
Complet set of filters for SD analog (highend comb filter and so on).
PIP, PBP ... just for the fun of it
Automatic memory switch Lumagen "virtual input" like + memory managment like PMS DynamicVP.
Gamma and color temp complet setings per input and output.

In one word, the best we got so far from Lumagen, PMS, DVDO + our own dreaming fantasies !
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post #54 of 57 Old 06-21-2009, 11:14 AM
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My wishlist is that upon release of HDMI 1.4, we see video processor companies offering configurable black/contrast-adjusted frame insertion and motion interpolation solutions.

This is the next big thing IMO.
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post #55 of 57 Old 06-22-2009, 04:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I like both of the last couple posts. Will be interesting to see if anyone announces anything for the fall.

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post #56 of 57 Old 06-22-2009, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee View Post

Would it really be that much storage to buffer a couple of hours' content? Drives are pretty cheap these days. (could be optional, just throw in a SATA drive and it tells you how long it can buffer)

Well, let's do the math.
I'm assuming as a 'worst case scenario' a progressive scan DVD player that always outputs 576p50 with YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB (8bit per component). That gives us:

720x576x50x24/8 = 59.4 MiB/s (aprox.)

Add in a fullrate dts stram and youre at 60MiB/s.
PAL speedup is about 4.27% faster than original (25*1.001/24 = 1.0427...).
For a 5 hours movie that means:

300*0.0427 = 12.8 mins (aporx.)

12.8 minutes at 60MiB per second gives around 45GiB. But thats not the problem.
The problem is: You'd write to the buffer storage constantly with 60MiB/s and concurently read from it at 60MiB/s. You'll need a storage device, interface (hardware and software) and backend (the rest of the scaler basically) capable of doing so in addition to all the other processing of the scaler.

Not to mention that the sacler would need to license Dolby Digital and dts, both decoding and encoding. Additional costs with no other benefits outside of PAL slowdown (could be wrong in this point but I think most if not all consumer grade scalers just pass audio 'as is' without any processing besides delay).

I live in a PAL country myself but I honestly think, this is just too much fuzz for a stand-alone scaler unit to be worth thinking about. Honestly, you don't realy hear the diffrence unless you constantly remind yourself, that it's there. I'd rather relax and watch the movies as they are and wait for the BluRay releases
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post #57 of 57 Old 06-26-2009, 03:33 PM
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A post from DVDO in the VP50Pro Forum.

Sorry, I couldn't resist . . . .
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