Best comb filter EVER? C2? Holo? Entech? Put on your gloves! - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post

Thanks for your post. I took both the SVSI-1 and VPS-1 shots into photoshop and applied a difference matte. There really isn't much difference between them at all to my eyes. Zooming in to 800% and toggling the images back and forth revealed little, other than the way they seem to handle cross-talk.

Without seeing these in motion, I think I might lean the way of the SVSI-1 myself. I'd call it a draw for the time being. I'd love for others to chime in. There has to be a set of eyes here that can make a definitive call...

I'll try to take higher-resolution png screenshots, before I have to return it to it's owner (so he can mail it to jedi.master.dre!).

TLK
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by The Lizard King View Post

I'll try to take higher-resolution png screenshots, before I have to return it to it's owner (so he can mail it to jedi.master.dre!).

TLK

Run as many tests as you like. Just let me know the results.
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by jedi.master.dre View Post

Run as many tests as you like. Just let me know the results.

I re-captured the Snell & Wilcox pattern as video using iMovie (DV25 codec) just to preserve it and compare it to other comb filters that are coming my way soon...

I purchased the Kramer FC-10D recently for less than $20 shipped, so that's on it's way to me. I also had my Faroudja NRS scaler "upgraded" recently to have multiple-resolution output, but it's still on a UPS truck somewhere. Finally, I have a Focus Enhancements CS-1 scaler in-hand that I may be able to capture from -- still working on that. Once I get these items ready to go, I can compare them to the SVSI-1 and my VPS-1 again with higher-resolution png pictures.

Just so you know, I returned the SVSI-1 to him yesterday, 11/10. I even gave him a box that it fits in to send it to you. Let me know if it comes in a Barnes & Noble box!

TLK
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:40 AM
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If you want me to upload some of the patterns in motion (X9 through S-Video), just say so. I've still got them on my harddisc.
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

If you want me to upload some of the patterns in motion (X9 through S-Video), just say so. I've still got them on my harddisc.

What codec? Streaming video like youtube?

I certainly would be interested in any/all information that I can get on the X9 (and X0). I've been saving money little by little over the years to be able to afford one, and I'm getting close to being able to finally buy one!

TLK
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:44 AM
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Currently uncompressed Blackmagic, but I can convert to whatever codec you like. HuffYUV maybe ? Or NewTek ?
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Old 03-25-2010, 12:58 PM
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Hi friends.

I checked my old hardrive and found some interesting images.

HLD-X0


HLD-X9


These two are captured with the same sweetspot card but sorry to say, the contrast was not 100% calibrated so the X9 image will look a little darker/or the X0 a little lighter. But irl I remember thinking that the X9 and X0 had almost the same sharpness, but I prefered the X0 comb filter, its color and much lower noise to the X9. The other problem I had with the X9 is "crossboard" (right word?) problems.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:04 PM
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Regarding the X9: the rainbow effects on the pattern below the "400" on top only appear on the standard comb filter settings. With the CF set to wide (2nd setting) most of the artefacts were gone and also the vertical color separation (see color boxes on the top right) was heavily improved.
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:12 PM
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I know but I remember that watching movies, I could not stand anything higher than standard, and in some cases "sport" mode was the best because of smearing. Both X0 and X9 was captured with "lower" Y/C settings = the same I use when I watch movies.

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Old 03-25-2010, 02:22 PM
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I did not mean "higher". I don't like the higher CF settings either. But the X9 has a three different CF modes and I found the second one (wide) better in general.
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Old 03-25-2010, 07:11 PM
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Maybe, I don't remember and I sold both my X9 2-3 years ago.

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Old 04-26-2010, 10:55 AM
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Apparently the DVDO Edge's analog input uses an Analog Devices ADV7800 which has a 3D comb filter.

http://www.analog.com/en/analog-to-d...s/product.html

How do you guys think that will compare to the Faroudja LD-100 and the Entech SVSI-1. I just picked those units up.
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Old 05-01-2010, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

Regarding the X9: the rainbow effects on the pattern below the "400" on top only appear on the standard comb filter settings. With the CF set to wide (2nd setting) most of the artefacts were gone and also the vertical color separation (see color boxes on the top right) was heavily improved.

the wide setting is ok for still pictures, but unusablefor motion.

Michael


I still have allthe tests I did with the different comb filters on my harddrive,
send me a PM and I'll upload the samples (S&W zone plate , Austin Powers,
5th Element) all captured with the Sweetspot card in HuffYUV and compressed with 8Mit/s MPEG2.

Michael
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:20 AM
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Quote:


the wide setting is ok for still pictures, but unusablefor motion.

what's the negative effect supposed to be ? Looked pretty good to me so far...
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

what's the negative effect supposed to be ? Looked pretty good to me so far...


everyhing in motion has a strange smearig effect, which does not happen when any other mode is selected.

you should see it onthe moving zone plate , everything not moving is
perfect , the moving zone plate is not.

Michael
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Old 05-01-2010, 05:41 PM
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didn't notice this so far, but I'll pay attention to it when I get the chance...
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Old 05-02-2010, 03:49 AM
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The smearing effect is easiest seen on faces and especially in darker scenes.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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Old 05-02-2010, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

The smearing effect is easiest seen on faces and especially in darker scenes.

Aha, someone else noticed it.

but you kept your X0's , right ?

Michael
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:38 AM
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I sold both my X9 and X0 and most of my collection. But just 3-4 weeks ago I bought a X0 again. There is still some great movies only on LD (collect trash, horror, b-action) that I want to see in the best possible way and 9-10 ft away from a 100+ inch screen are impossible with laserdisc unless one use the best machines.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lizard King View Post

I'll try to take higher-resolution png screenshots, before I have to return it to it's owner (so he can mail it to jedi.master.dre!).

TLK

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.master.dre View Post

Run as many tests as you like. Just let me know the results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lizard King View Post

I re-captured the Snell & Wilcox pattern as video using iMovie (DV25 codec) just to preserve it and compare it to other comb filters that are coming my way soon...

I purchased the Kramer FC-10D recently for less than $20 shipped, so that's on it's way to me. I also had my Faroudja NRS scaler "upgraded" recently to have multiple-resolution output, but it's still on a UPS truck somewhere. Finally, I have a Focus Enhancements CS-1 scaler in-hand that I may be able to capture from -- still working on that. Once I get these items ready to go, I can compare them to the SVSI-1 and my VPS-1 again with higher-resolution png pictures.

Just so you know, I returned the SVSI-1 to him yesterday, 11/10. I even gave him a box that it fits in to send it to you. Let me know if it comes in a Barnes & Noble box!

TLK

Any information yet? I have the Entech SVSI-1 and a Farudja VP-100, wondering how they will compare to my DVDO Edge.
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Old 05-09-2010, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by jedi.master.dre View Post

Any information yet? I have the Entech SVSI-1 and a Farudja VP-100, wondering how they will compare to my DVDO Edge.

I don't know, but since DVDO/Anchor Bay doesn't put a whole lot of effort into the comb filters of their units, I'm guessing that the external comb filters that you mention and the DVDO Edge's comb filter will be about the same.

TLK
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:20 PM
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Does the wide versus hi-def selection really control the comb filter?

When the laserdisk player outputs composite then the external comb filter unit does all the work. When the laserdisk player outputs S-video then the external comb filter does nothing.

Since the above images do clearly show that the wide versus hi-def does make a difference in the output, those settings must therefore pertain to some sub-circuit that is in operation at all times, which must be something other than a comb filter.

As far as I know, the various TV set and LD player and video processor (e.g. DVDO) makers use mass produced comb filter chips from third parties. The Crystal Vision (VPS1) documentation mentions two comb filters and also some other circuitry inside the box and the processing chooses which one will give the best performance for every small piece of the picture.

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:27 AM
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When the laserdisk player outputs composite then the external comb filter unit does all the work

not really. That's exactly the basic problem of most LD players. None of the players (except the X0) has a pure composite output. What you get through the composite output on most players is just a recombined S-Video signal. So the original signal is running through the internal comb filter all the time.

Another question from my side: a few days ago I watched a full LD movie for the first time in a long time (a late 80s Hong Kong LD from Mei Ah). While the overall picture quality was really ok, I had my eye on the comb filter performance of course. What I noticed is that while the comb filter's performance was really ace during still frames or slow moving scenes, it completely broke up during high motion scenes. There were a few scenes in which one of the actors wore a colorful hawaii shirt. Most of the time the colors were nicely seperated with little to none bleeding and no visible dot crawl, but the actor started moving faster, there started to appear dot crawls all over the shirt. Switching between low and high comb filter settings didn't make a difference. Turning the CF off or setting it to HR brought out the dot crawls all the time though.

I never paid too much attention to this before, but I was wondering if there's a significant performance difference in the various comb filters in regard to motion detection ??
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Old 05-11-2010, 06:09 PM
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Fudoh, Yes, this is one of the problems with the X9 comb filter. I remember when I first saw it, and after that I saw it everytime. The X0 comb filter is better in that regard, it don't "break" in fast motion scenes and that is one of the reasons I prefer the X0.

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Old 05-12-2010, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Jayne View Post

Does the wide versus hi-def selection really control the comb filter?

it's not hi-def, it's hi-res.

as far as I was able to translate from the japanese manual, the wide setting was optimised for still pictures and not for motion

Michael
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Jayne View Post

Does the wide versus hi-def selection really control the comb filter?

When the laserdisk player outputs composite then the external comb filter unit does all the work. When the laserdisk player outputs S-video then the external comb filter does nothing.

Since the above images do clearly show that the wide versus hi-def does make a difference in the output, those settings must therefore pertain to some sub-circuit that is in operation at all times, which must be something other than a comb filter.

As far as I know, the various TV set and LD player and video processor (e.g. DVDO) makers use mass produced comb filter chips from third parties. The Crystal Vision (VPS1) documentation mentions two comb filters and also some other circuitry inside the box and the processing chooses which one will give the best performance for every small piece of the picture.



back when the VPS-1 came out (mid 90's ?) this may have been the case that it was at the top of performance, but it's still a 2D design, maybe even
a 3 line design. and those designs have been overtaken by much better
technology.

Michael
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Old 05-12-2010, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by nidi View Post

back when the VPS-1 came out (mid 90's ?) this may have been the case that it was at the top of performance, but it's still a 2D design, maybe even
a 3 line design. and those designs have been overtaken by much better
technology.

Michael

Michael (and others who have the same general understanding) -

The problem is that while the very best 3D filters are technically better than their 2D counterparts, they do NOT yield good results when their signal is deinterlaced by ANY subsequent VP (including the latest Lumagen X- series, which are the best at this).

The steep-slope and time-based 3D filter process yields a signal that almost disintegrates when the individual fields are separated. NIN is dead on: once you see it and recognize it for what it is, it's awfully annoying and almost unacceptable.

Upscaling this result, especially onto a big screen, exacerbates the problem.

So the very best 2D filters will provide the best "real world" results. No checkerboard patterns, no dot patterns, no fringing, no delays, no millisecond B&W flashes. Just a wonderfully rich, smooth picture.

Anybody who has the X9 - look carefully at "The Fifth Element" or similar through the S-Video output through the filter's default settings. (The scene where Leeloo is "constructed"/born is particularly troublesome.) Then go back and adjust the filter for its lowest settings (forcing it to stay in 2D as long as possible). You will easily see an improvement in reduced artifacts.

The X0 Composite output eliminates even this.

Yes, on completely still shots and/or freeze-frames, the 3D filter will eliminate a slight bit of dot crawl, and provide slightly sharper vertical delineation.

But this frame to frame repeat simply doesn't happen much in actual movie viewing. A very good 2D filter will always a better, more "watchable" result for motion pictures whenever the signal is deinterlaced and upscaled. You really don't see much "dot crawl" as a practical matter. And it's far less evil than the "dot matrix."

[Hi, NIN and TK and others. Just stepped in here quickly ... ]

Regards,

- Hunter
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Old 05-12-2010, 05:46 PM
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Hi Hunter. I will soon try the entech and see if I like it.

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Old 05-13-2010, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post

Michael (and others who have the same general understanding) -

The problem is that while the very best 3D filters are technically better than their 2D counterparts, they do NOT yield good results when their signal is deinterlaced by ANY subsequent VP (including the latest Lumagen X- series, which are the best at this).

The steep-slope and time-based 3D filter process yields a signal that almost disintegrates when the individual fields are separated. NIN is dead on: once you see it and recognize it for what it is, it's awfully annoying and almost unacceptable.

Upscaling this result, especially onto a big screen, exacerbates the problem.

So the very best 2D filters will provide the best "real world" results. No checkerboard patterns, no dot patterns, no fringing, no delays, no millisecond B&W flashes. Just a wonderfully rich, smooth picture.

Anybody who has the X9 - look carefully at "The Fifth Element" or similar through the S-Video output through the filter's default settings. (The scene where Leeloo is "constructed"/born is particularly troublesome.) Then go back and adjust the filter for its lowest settings (forcing it to stay in 2D as long as possible). You will easily see an improvement in reduced artifacts.

The X0 Composite output eliminates even this.

Yes, on completely still shots and/or freeze-frames, the 3D filter will eliminate a slight bit of dot crawl, and provide slightly sharper vertical delineation.

But this frame to frame repeat simply doesn't happen much in actual movie viewing. A very good 2D filter will always a better, more "watchable" result for motion pictures whenever the signal is deinterlaced and upscaled. You really don't see much "dot crawl" as a practical matter. And it's far less evil than the "dot matrix."

Hunter,

I just finished a capture session with all the settings available on the X0

with the scene from 5th Element plus one file using the Entech SVSI-1

anyone interested in the results , please PM me and I'll give you the
download links for the files. I use a network media player that can play back
MPEG2 files and use the Crystalio 2 to deinterlace and scale to 960P 72Hz
on my Marquee 9500LC ultra

back to the 2D/3D design. as you mentioned Hunter, the settings on the
X0 can be selected n such a way , that the 3D part of the filter isn't active.
so since you like the 2D design so much, why do you want an external filter
when it can be done with the settings of the X0 ?

Michael
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
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Hunter,
I just finished a capture session with all the settings available on the X0
Michael

Hi, Michael -
I don't yet know what you have. But just to be clear: please note that I wrote that you can't see the problems with the 3d/deinterlacing process in still frames. It is during normal playback when the artifacts are produced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nidi View Post

the settings on the X0 can be selected n such a way , that the 3D part of the filter isn't active.
so since you like the 2D design so much, why do you want an external filter
when it can be done with the settings of the X0 ?

The X0 actually has three available signal sources -
S-Video - the Composite signal is separated by the 3D filter, processed and the two components (Y and C) are output through the S-Video jack.
Composite RCA - the Composite signal is separated by the 3D filter for the purpose of implementing noise reduction as accessed through the settings menu. After the noise reduction is performed the Y and C signals are (re)combined into Composite and output through the Composite RCA jack.
Composite BNC - the Composite signal from the disc is passed along directly to the Composite BNC jack. There is no processing - the settings do not affect this Composite signal.

That is the big feature of the X0. It is virtually unique in most laserdisc machines; especially the latter-day higher-end models.
It is definitely unique among the last-generation narrow-wavelength laser players (developed for HD Muse playback).

So the reason for the Y/C filter after the X0 is to get the best Composite signal possible into the best and/or purest Y/C filter possible. There are a few excellent 2D filters - outboard and onboard in the best video processors - that are not compromised by the inevitable loss of resolution, color shift, and ringing resulting from noise reduction.

Pls check PM. Thanks.

Regards,

- Hunter
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