Affordable VP /w good CMS - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 11 Old 05-20-2009, 12:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there such a thing out there?

A sub-$1,500 VP with CMS say with corrections of primaries and secondaries, gamma adjustment etc, or is it too much to ask for in such a price point? The Edge looks great but if I am correct doesn't really have CMS.

If not, what's the closest thing?

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post #2 of 11 Old 05-20-2009, 08:25 AM
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The closest you'll get is a Lumagen Vision HDP (new) or HDQ (used), and you won't get full primary correction just mitigation, but you do get gamma and greyscale adjustment too See this thread about the CMS.
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post #3 of 11 Old 05-22-2009, 07:54 PM
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The other thing to look for (if you can find it) is an Optoma HD3000. It uses Gennum VXP scaling and has custom gamma and some color adjustment for primaries and secondaries (hue and saturation, but no lightness). It also has rudimentary grayscale controls (pretty much like what you'd find on most TVs)--nowhere near as good as Lumagen's implementation. I took a chance on a used one I found, and I've been really happy with it. The only thing to be on the lookout for is that the early ones didn't have the ability to scale to 1080p, so you'd have to check on that if you need 1080p scaling. Again, not a common recommendation, and no longer produced or supported by Optoma, but it might meet your needs if you can find a used one.
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post #4 of 11 Old 06-04-2009, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlinsley View Post

The closest you'll get is a Lumagen Vision HDP (new) or HDQ (used), and you won't get full primary correction just mitigation, but you do get gamma and greyscale adjustment too See this thread about the CMS.

Vision HDP is discontinued...entry is the HDQ but as you said, a bit over the price range.
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post #5 of 11 Old 06-04-2009, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drrick View Post

The other thing to look for (if you can find it) is an Optoma HD3000. It uses Gennum VXP scaling and has custom gamma and some color adjustment for primaries and secondaries (hue and saturation, but no lightness).

It's really just a chroma gain control (sort of like the Main Color control, except for each color) rather than a true saturation control. It adjusts brightness and saturation. It is really useful for correcting color decoding errors, but I wouldn't use it to remedy an oversaturated primary color, as it will screw up the brightness.

I am afraid that the Radiance is the only game in town. At some point somebody is going to realize that there is a market not being served and offer an affordable external CMS/multipoint gamma-grayscale tool. The market for a $5,000 full-featured video processor is tiny compared to what I would expect for a $1,000 calibration-only device.

Tom Huffman
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post #6 of 11 Old 06-04-2009, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I am afraid that the Radiance is the only game in town. At some point somebody is going to realize that there is a market not being served and offer an affordable external CMS/multipoint gamma-grayscale tool. The market for a $5,000 full-featured video processor is tiny compared to what I would expect for a $1,000 calibration-only device.


Hear hear. But I'd bet by the time that happens virtually everything will have its own calibration setup. As it is more and more come out with that. Oh well, the time will come.
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post #7 of 11 Old 06-15-2009, 01:21 PM
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You can purchase a used Lumagen HDP, ProHDP or HDQ. These units should be inside your price target. You can down load the latest software, for free, from the Lumagen website to add the CMS feature to any of these products.

Here is the link for software updates.
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=updates

If you are interested in the Lumagen ProHDP send me a PM.

Randy
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post #8 of 11 Old 06-16-2009, 06:42 AM
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Correct me if I am wrong, but the HDP/HDP Pro don't have a full CMS as in the Radiance, though, correct?
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post #9 of 11 Old 06-16-2009, 11:56 AM
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Lumagen added a simple CMS system to the HDP, ProHDP and HDQ. This new feature was added to recent software and is available as a free download on the Lumagen website. We added what we could with the number of spare gates that we had available.

This CMS feature was originally added to support our customers who had the JVC RS-1 projector. This projector started the trend for many new displays to have a green color point that is well outside the color triangle. This results in an image that has fluorescent green grass and faces that look sun burnt. The simple CMS system that was added to the HDP, ProHDP and HDQ is very effective in fixing these issues.

We don't call it a calibration, but rather a mitigation. We recommend that the green color point be moved much closer to, but not on top of, the green point of the color triangle. You can move the green point maybe 75%-80% of the way towards the correct color point. Error on the side of a slightly saturated green. You certainly don't want to under saturate the green.

I have personally calibrated many displays that had a green color point well outside the color triangle using this Lumagen CMS system. I've seen with my own eyes that it works very well. It's not a full calibration, like you can do with the Radiance, but it's remarkable just how well it fixes this issue.

This feature was added for free and is available to anyone who owns a Lumagen HDP, ProHDP or HDQ video processor. You just need to go to the Lumagen website and download the latest software.

Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com
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post #10 of 11 Old 06-16-2009, 02:09 PM
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The problem with the HDP/HDQ CMS is that desaturating a primary color (such as green) pushes the affected secondaries even more aggressively towards the white point. Thus, you get a tradeoff between a more accurate primary and one or more less accurate secondaries.

I gather this is why Randy recommends not desaturating green all the way necessary to reach the Rec. 709 target, because doing so would screw up yellow too much. On the other hand, reigning green in some, but not all, of the way improves green accuracy without completely undermining the accuracy of the affected secondaries.

Some users have tried to work around this problem by using a combination of the gamut tool with the Red and Green Color adjustments, which is a major kluge and often screws up the brightness of the affected colors and can also result in visible banding.

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post #11 of 11 Old 06-16-2009, 02:43 PM
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Tom is correct. You want to stop adjusting the green primary color point when the yellow secondary color point hits the Rec 709 color triangle. This is the most that green should be adjusted. But it's enough to greatly improve the color rendition of the display.

Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com
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