1080i -> 1080p/24 ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 06-16-2009, 12:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been pondering getting a video processor and was wondering something - if I'm watching a movie off of cable in 1080i/60 and the processor de-interlaces and does reverse pulldown and outputs 1080p/24 then shouldn't that be the same quality as the same movie on Blu-Ray? I mean setting aside Comcast compression issues shouldn't the processor be able to get real close? Or is it just not the same?
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post #2 of 24 Old 06-16-2009, 06:48 AM
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Not really. See, you are only talking one aspect of the image...resolution. Though you can do what you mention and output the same as a BluRay, there are many other factors that come into play that will affect the image even more. For instance, BluRay uses WAY less compression than broadcast...this is a BIG problem for satellite/cable signals. BluRay has a higher signal to noise ratio, etc...
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post #3 of 24 Old 06-16-2009, 02:52 PM
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One problem is that 1080i sometimes contains cadence errors, and some processors are better than others at handling those errors. Other than that, the result is basically the same as native 1080p24.
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post #4 of 24 Old 06-21-2009, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Garci View Post

One problem is that 1080i sometimes contains cadence errors, and some processors are better than others at handling those errors. Other than that, the result is basically the same as native 1080p24.

No, it really isn't.

It may be in terms of resolution and framerate, but the list basically ends there.
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post #5 of 24 Old 06-21-2009, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

I've been pondering getting a video processor and was wondering something - if I'm watching a movie off of cable in 1080i/60 and the processor de-interlaces and does reverse pulldown and outputs 1080p/24 then shouldn't that be the same quality as the same movie on Blu-Ray? I mean setting aside Comcast compression issues shouldn't the processor be able to get real close? Or is it just not the same?

I have done it and yes it does work. A lot of HD TV material is 24 fps. Depending on the video processor it can automatically pick out the cadence of the source material. You have to have the VP output 24/48/72 fps to take advantage. I have a VP50 set to output 1080-48P or 1060-60P. I do get lazy and just leave it at 48 fps most of the time. I do get some motion artifacts this way but I don't watch much TV on my HT projector.
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post #6 of 24 Old 06-21-2009, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

No, it really isn't.

It may be in terms of resolution and framerate, but the list basically ends there.

Consider these two scenarios...

1. I configure my Blu-ray player to produce 1080i output and use a video processor to convert it to 1080p24.

2. I configure my Blu-ray player to produce 1080p24 output (and do not use a video processor).

What difference would you see in the final output?
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post #7 of 24 Old 06-21-2009, 06:39 PM
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The OP was referring to broadcasts, not BluRay
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post #8 of 24 Old 06-21-2009, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

The OP was referring to broadcasts, not BluRay

OK. Then consider these two scenarios...

1. The movie is converted from 1080p24 to 1080i, and the provider sends the resulting 1080i to the cable box. I configure the cable box to produce 1080i output and use a video processor to convert it to 1080p24.

2. The provider sends the movie as 1080p24 to the cable box. I configure the cable box to produce 1080p24 output (and do not use a video processor).

What difference would you see in the final output?
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post #9 of 24 Old 06-21-2009, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Garci View Post

OK. Then consider these two scenarios...

1. The movie is converted from 1080p24 to 1080i, and the provider sends the resulting 1080i to the cable box. I configure the cable box to produce 1080i output and use a video processor to convert it to 1080p24.

2. The provider sends the movie as 1080p24 to the cable box. I configure the cable box to produce 1080p24 output (and do not use a video processor).

What difference would you see in the final output?

Assuming the deinterlacing and cadence detection is correct, none. I've already stated this would be the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by me View Post

It may be in terms of resolution and framerate, but the list basically ends there.

The OP shrugged of compression as the it shouldn't be that big of a difference. I'm stating that yes in fact, it will be. Cable bit rates are terrible relative to BD.
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post #10 of 24 Old 06-22-2009, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

Assuming the deinterlacing and cadence detection is correct, none. I've already stated this would be the same.

That is the point I am making.

Just to be clear, I am not trying to imply that 1080i-to-1080p24 conversion can undo the losses that were caused by compression. It cannot undo them.
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post #11 of 24 Old 06-22-2009, 09:03 AM
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I use a Lumagen HDQ and watch movies set to 1080p/24. Works great with my Directv HD DVR. Resolution is no where near what my Bluray player outputs but in most cases looks better and sharper than a DVD. It will depend on the channel you are recording or viewing the movie from. Some channels have more bandwidth and use a higher bitrate which produces a better picture but even the better channels vary in quality.

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post #12 of 24 Old 06-24-2009, 03:02 AM
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Great thread ... Two external processors mentioned are the DVDO iScan VP50 listing at $2,499 and the Lumagen VisionHDQ for $1999.

Anyone know of any sub-$500 processors which can convert 1080i60 film-based content to 1080p24?

I'm assuming that there are few if any TVs which can do this -- a handful of them do 1080i film-mode deinterlacing but reverse pulldown ... am I right that this feature is a rarity in a TV set?

I looked at the Gefen 1080p HDMI scaler ($299) but apparently it can only output 1080p60 (page 8 of the manual, 1080p24 not on the list of output resolutions).

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post #13 of 24 Old 06-24-2009, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walt73 View Post

Anyone know of any sub-$500 processors which can convert 1080i60 film-based content to 1080p24?

Not SUB $500 - but only by a few $ - check DVDO EDGE pricing, or a used Lumagen scaler.
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post #14 of 24 Old 06-24-2009, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walt73 View Post

Great thread ... Two external processors mentioned are the DVDO iScan VP50 listing at $2,499 and the Lumagen VisionHDQ for $1999.

Anyone know of any sub-$500 processors which can convert 1080i60 film-based content to 1080p24?

I'm assuming that there are few if any TVs which can do this -- a handful of them do 1080i film-mode deinterlacing but reverse pulldown ... am I right that this feature is a rarity in a TV set?

I looked at the Gefen 1080p HDMI scaler ($299) but apparently it can only output 1080p60 (page 8 of the manual, 1080p24 not on the list of output resolutions).

The only processor supporting 1080p24 from 60Hz signals near that price (that I'm aware of) is the DVDO Edge. I believe you can find it at $599 if you look around.

I am quite happy with mine.
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post #15 of 24 Old 06-26-2009, 03:04 AM
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Thanks much for the replies guys, I think the DVDO Edge is going to be the ticket.

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post #16 of 24 Old 06-26-2009, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

I've been pondering getting a video processor and was wondering something - if I'm watching a movie off of cable in 1080i/60 and the processor de-interlaces and does reverse pulldown and outputs 1080p/24 then shouldn't that be the same quality as the same movie on Blu-Ray? I mean setting aside Comcast compression issues shouldn't the processor be able to get real close? Or is it just not the same?

huge difference HD Broadcast is in 8 bits/second if you are lucky. Blu-ray has 48. Blu-ray has a lot more data.
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post #17 of 24 Old 07-01-2009, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walt73 View Post

Great thread ... Two external processors mentioned are the DVDO iScan VP50 listing at $2,499 and the Lumagen VisionHDQ for $1999.

Anyone know of any sub-$500 processors which can convert 1080i60 film-based content to 1080p24?

I'm assuming that there are few if any TVs which can do this -- a handful of them do 1080i film-mode deinterlacing but reverse pulldown ... am I right that this feature is a rarity in a TV set?

I looked at the Gefen 1080p HDMI scaler ($299) but apparently it can only output 1080p60 (page 8 of the manual, 1080p24 not on the list of output resolutions).

New the DVDO Edge (at it's lowest price you only find on occassion) is the only thing. Other than that...used is your best bet.
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post #18 of 24 Old 07-14-2009, 02:34 PM
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I know 1080i is stunning as compared to 480i, but I would like to mention one fundamental difference between 1080i and 1080p. That is that with 1080i the video processor only has 540 lines per frame to work with and 1080p is just that, the full 1080 lines. Deinterlacing is not an exact science and artifacts are to be expected when you go from 540 to 1080. Just my 2 cents.
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post #19 of 24 Old 07-15-2009, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by laggs View Post

Deinterlacing is not an exact science and artifacts are to be expected when you go from 540 to 1080.

Movies are usually shot at 24 frames/sec. When they are interlaced properly and then de-interlaced properly, you end up with all 1080 lines, with no interlacing artifacts.

Interlacing artifacts are much more of a problem for shows that are shot at 60 fields/sec, and those shows should be de-interlaced to 1080p60, not to 1080p24.
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post #20 of 24 Old 07-15-2009, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laggs View Post

That is that with 1080i the video processor only has 540 lines per frame to work with and 1080p is just that, the full 1080 lines. Deinterlacing is not an exact science and artifacts are to be expected when you go from 540 to 1080. Just my 2 cents.

No, it has 540 lines per FIELD, two fields make up frame. So there are still 1080 lines per frame in 1080i. The difference is the two sets of 540 lines are seperated in time by 1/60th of a second. In a still image or an image that does not move during that time, 1080i can be converted back to 1080p quite well. It's when something moves between fields that deinterlacing is difficult if not impossible.

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post #21 of 24 Old 07-24-2009, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

huge difference HD Broadcast is in 8 bits/second if you are lucky. Blu-ray has 48. Blu-ray has a lot more data.

I think you mean megabits?

Does bluray goes as high as 48? Maybe with HD audio included I guess...

Kind of academic I suppose - you're right that the amount of compression makes a big difference.
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post #22 of 24 Old 07-24-2009, 07:35 AM
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The bitrate can make a difference in picture quality, but the bitrate does not really make a difference in the process of converting from 1080i to 1080p24. The process is the same regardless of whether the bitrate is higher or lower.
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post #23 of 24 Old 08-05-2009, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walt73 View Post

Thanks much for the replies guys, I think the DVDO Edge is going to be the ticket.

Converting film sources to 1080p24 theoretically should be perfect but in reality errors often occur producing intermittent jerkiness or stuttering in the image. This is especially true with broadcast sources. Even if this artifact is infrequent it can be pretty annoying depending on your tolerance for it.

The best performance at this I've seen so far is that of the Realta-based Denon 602ci.
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post #24 of 24 Old 08-11-2009, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Converting film sources to 1080p24 theoretically should be perfect but in reality errors often occur producing intermittent jerkiness or stuttering in the image. This is especially true with broadcast sources. Even if this artifact is infrequent it can be pretty annoying depending on your tolerance for it.

The best performance at this I've seen so far is that of the Realta-based Denon 602ci.

That model looks the business and at $2500 MSRP is certainly priced like it. I'm going to dig into the reviews for some hints at how the DVDO EDGE performs by comparison.

If the cheaper unit does introduce substantial errors like you describe, I'll have to decide what's worse: consistent telecine stutter or inconsistently converted 24p? Either way the motion performance won't be perfect.

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