New DVDO iScan Duo [2.0 firmware released] - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 3841 Old 09-19-2009, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

I have know doubt that was the case Josh , Its A real shame that DVDO Doesn't understand the importance and thus far clearly has'nt taken your position (when you were Product Manager)
that usefull" control's that focus around calibration is what the Customer wants & expects in A high end VP ...

From A company stand point like DVDO, A fully implemented CMS / 11-21 point Gray scale Gamma would be the strongest selling point, for customers to see the clear advantage's for A stand alone VP...

At this time the "Clear" advantages of A stand alone DVDO VP is just barely there especialy in the latest HI-DEF Blu-Ray era....


Cheers...

It depends upon what you're connecting and the tastes of the users, not all of whom are as technical as many on these forums. I'm one of those. There is a level of ease, control and convenience with a VP that would be absent if I didn't have one. Plus the PQ.


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post #62 of 3841 Old 09-19-2009, 09:49 AM
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Nope....exactly 1 year as of today

Any reason you can publicly state?

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post #63 of 3841 Old 09-19-2009, 11:08 AM
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From A company stand point like DVDO, A fully implemented CMS / 11-21 point Gray scale Gamma would be the strongest selling point, for customers to see the clear advantage's for A stand alone VP...



Amen.
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post #64 of 3841 Old 09-19-2009, 06:35 PM
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Amen.

Depending upon your target audience/clientele, yes. The average consumer will have to be trained to understand what that means and shown in real-world terms, and the difference must be noticeable. Even then, some may balk.


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post #65 of 3841 Old 09-19-2009, 10:23 PM
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Hi Prepress, What you are saying above is like saying, if I buy A car I need to learn how to Tune it, this is why you take it to your machanic.. The same applys for A VP with CMS you hire An Experienced THX/ISF calibrator to tune your Display chain thus get the most out of your system...

Its Simple, Averege Jo Six Pack just doesnt use the Advanced user settings in the VP...
So the DVDO VP with default settings will produce an image exactly like it does know..

Lets be clear here, CMS (Color Managment System) & 11-21 pont Gray scale & Gamma in A VP allow Advanced users to correct as much as possible the Displays short comings.. 99% of Display devices dont have the necessary adjustments to allow for as close as possible images the Director intended..

Lumagen realize the importance of CMS & even provide A basic CMS Gamma & Gray scale adjustments in there lower end VP...It is A huge marketing advantage That DVDO just dont seem to get, doing so is leaving DVDO's VP's in the 20th centery Feature wise..

Cheers....
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post #66 of 3841 Old 09-20-2009, 02:33 AM
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Hi Prepress, What you are saying above is like saying, if I buy A car I need to learn how to Tune it, this is why you take it to your machanic.. The same applys for A VP with CMS you hire An Experienced THX/ISF calibrator to tune your Display chain thus get the most out of your system...

Its Simple, Averege Jo Six Pack just doesnt use the Advanced user settings in the VP...
So the DVDO VP with default settings will produce an image exactly like it does know..

Lets be clear here, CMS (Color Managment System) & 11-21 pont Gray scale & Gamma in A VP allow Advanced users to correct as much as possible the Displays short comings.. 99% of Display devices dont have the necessary adjustments to allow for as close as possible images the Director intended..

Lumagen realize the importance of CMS & even provide A basic CMS Gamma & Gray scale adjustments in there lower end VP...It is A huge marketing advantage That DVDO just dont seem to get, doing so is leaving DVDO's VP's in the 20th centery Feature wise..

Cheers....

Hello cinema mad,

Not just DVDO, but anyone who'd attempt to sell products to the mass market. "Lower-end" for Lumagen isn't necessarily the same as "mass market." And your term "advanced users" is key. Those are the people who, I think, would most value a strong CMS and understand what it can do, and so for them I agree with what you say. I was making a different point and perhaps we're missing each other.

For the average consumer who goes to Best Buy and likes what he sees, takes it home, hooks up his equipment, maybe tweaks the display settings a bit and is satisfied, his worldview (so to speak) likely doesn't allow for what a good outboard VP might do for him; maybe he's not even aware such things exist.

I think of myself as falling between the average consumer and the videophile enthusiast, leaning toward the enthusiast slightly (I call it "semi-technical"). I got my EDGE to use as a video hub and give some help to my lower-rez sources, which it does. I did have my display (a Pioneer Elite 111FD) calibrated, and most of the EDGE settings (brightness, color, etc.) are flat. I get good pictures. With a less good display, CMS might well make a difference and I'd probably want it if I were hunting for a VP; as it is, the CMS gray scale setup would represent a "nice option to have whether I use it or not" feature.


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post #67 of 3841 Old 09-20-2009, 05:41 AM
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I agree that DVDO is hurting themselves by not having a single product that offers greyscale/gamut corrections. Sure, people who are looking at the Edge are probably not looking for such controls, but someone who opens their wallet for a 50Pro are probably towards the more advanced end of the spectrum and would use a CMS if available. The fact that Lumagen offers this on all of their products while DVDO has it on none is a major reason that I jumped ship.

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post #68 of 3841 Old 09-20-2009, 08:37 AM
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^ ^ ^
And those people would likely have a good display with good grayscale to start with, unless budget's an issue. The tweaker or true enthusiast hobbyist who wants the best regardless would surely go for the CMS-enabled processor. Others like me with budget constraints and who got a pretty good TV set to start with might be less impressed for the need to spend the money.

So perhaps it's a matter of what does the individual user want or need.


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post #69 of 3841 Old 09-20-2009, 08:47 AM
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The days of spending 3K on a video processor are over for most (definitely me). I can't see investing that much when we have Blu ray. When we also have receivers/pre-pros that are coming with very good scaling and picture adjustments. And of course since many displays are doing a better than decent job. A VP with many HDMI inputs and excellent scaling with a couple of HDMI outs and even a separate one for Audio (which passes AACs) not to mention test patterns and other useful tools as long as it is cost effective will have a market. The DUO fits this perfectly. And last time I checked I don't think anyone ruled out CMS...?

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post #70 of 3841 Old 09-20-2009, 09:26 AM
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The (calibration) Adjustments that DVDO have in there Stand Alone VP's is pretty much as basic as they come inc there flag ship VP50pro thus very limited...

I can't see why it would/should cost any more for the inclusion of A tool box full of real adjustment's "CMS Gray Scale Gamma" and should really be no less A standard feature in A 2008/9/10 STAND ALONE VP...


There is way more to it than just good scaling when wanting to get the best from your displays image, I think it is still A long way off for Blu-ray players and Pre Pro's to have CMS & so on..

Cheers....
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post #71 of 3841 Old 09-20-2009, 09:52 AM
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^ ^ ^
And those people would likely have a good display with good grayscale to start with, unless budget's an issue. The tweaker or true enthusiast hobbyist who wants the best regardless would surely go for the CMS-enabled processor. Others like me with budget constraints and who got a pretty good TV set to start with might be less impressed for the need to spend the money.

So perhaps it's a matter of what does the individual user want or need.

The reality is most display devices cheap and costly just dont have the needed adjustments to at least allow for as close to reference image as the display can deliver, thus even more need for connecting A VP with CMS grey scale/ Gamma adjustments and so on as this would be the only way around it...

I am sure DVDO could deliver these Extremely important features in A Budget/sub $1000 stand alone VP at no extra cost to the end user due to A huge jump in there sales ....

Cheers...
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post #72 of 3841 Old 09-20-2009, 11:11 AM
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^ ^ ^
And those people would likely have a good display with good grayscale to start with, unless budget's an issue. The tweaker or true enthusiast hobbyist who wants the best regardless would surely go for the CMS-enabled processor. Others like me with budget constraints and who got a pretty good TV set to start with might be less impressed for the need to spend the money.

So perhaps it's a matter of what does the individual user want or need.

Actually there's plenty of displays out there - cheap and expensive - that would benefit from the greyscale, gamma, and gamut adjustments available on Lumagen's VP's. I'm not saying that every single standalone VP out there should have a CMS, nor am I saying that every end user out there needs a CMS. However, for DVDO to not offer one on a single product - even their flagship - when Lumagen has it on all of theirs is not doing them any favors.

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post #73 of 3841 Old 09-20-2009, 12:04 PM
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Would it be very difficult to develop a full featured CMS? If not there must be other reasons why DVDO hasn't included one yet in any of their products.
Although I understand them not including a CMS in the EDGE and new Duo for marketing reasons.
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post #74 of 3841 Old 09-20-2009, 01:19 PM
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Are we sure that the VP50Pro is not hardware limited in some way for it not having CMS at this point, or is it simply that it is capable but hasn't been implemented yet?

If I recall, and I can't recount exactly what, but weren't both VP30 and VP50 released with certain promises about future features, but these weren't implemented because it turned out they couldn't due to hardware limitations?

I would like CMS in my VP50Pro. I bought it because I was to understand it would eventually have it. Last night I found myself gravitating towards the dark side, having a look around the PixelMagic website. Nice. I know where to look if VP50Pro has come to a grinding halt with further development, and it won't be in the direction of VP60 or whatever comes next in the DVDO line-up.

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post #75 of 3841 Old 09-20-2009, 01:24 PM
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The Edge and Duo are limited to current specs due to their ASIC design. The 50pro should have enough processing power left in his FPGA design to have a full-blown CMS. DVDO/ABT stated they were working on it a few times in the past. Even if the project has been canceled I don't think they started to work on it if there wasn't enough power in the first place.

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Last night I found myself gravitating towards the dark side, having a look around the PixelMagic website. Nice. I know where to look if VP50Pro has come...

did I miss the irony or sarcasm hidden in there ?


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post #76 of 3841 Old 09-20-2009, 01:59 PM
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The Edge and Duo are limited to current specs due to their ASIC design. The 50pro should have enough processing power left in his FPGA design to have a full-blown CMS. DVDO/ABT stated they were working on it a few times in the past. Even if the project has been canceled I don't think they started to work on it if there wasn't enough power in the first place.

That's what DVDO has told me as well - the VP50Pro has enough room for a CMS, the VP50 does not. Of course when I asked them about it in October of last year, they said they were working on a CMS firmware update for the Pro that would be out within "the next couple of months."

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post #77 of 3841 Old 09-21-2009, 09:36 AM
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That's what DVDO has told me as well - the VP50Pro has enough room for a CMS, the VP50 does not. Of course when I asked them about it in October of last year, they said they were working on a CMS firmware update for the Pro that would be out within "the next couple of months."

when the engineering team i work with says "two weeks" it usually ends up being 2+ months so "couple of months" probably means 2 years
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post #78 of 3841 Old 09-21-2009, 01:25 PM
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That's what DVDO has told me as well - the VP50Pro has enough room for a CMS, the VP50 does not. Of course when I asked them about it in October of last year, they said they were working on a CMS firmware update for the Pro that would be out within "the next couple of months."

I also have enough room for this in my garage:

http://www.maserati.com/maserati/en/...ranCabrio.html

But it aint going to happen...
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post #79 of 3841 Old 09-22-2009, 09:27 AM
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Datasheet (pdf)
Comparison table (pdf)

Im looking forward in reading the review on this processor.

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post #80 of 3841 Old 09-22-2009, 09:32 AM
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I am looking forward to doing a review on it as soon as I am allowed to.

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post #81 of 3841 Old 09-22-2009, 01:41 PM
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Actually there's plenty of displays out there - cheap and expensive - that would benefit from the greyscale, gamma, and gamut adjustments available on Lumagen's VP's. I'm not saying that every single standalone VP out there should have a CMS, nor am I saying that every end user out there needs a CMS. However, for DVDO to not offer one on a single product - even their flagship - when Lumagen has it on all of theirs is not doing them any favors.

But isn't the grayscale work being done on the signal to the TV from the player, not the TV's grayscale itself?


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post #82 of 3841 Old 09-22-2009, 04:04 PM
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But isn't the grayscale work being done on the signal to the TV from the player, not the TV's grayscale itself?

If you keep the bit-depth high-enough above the reference signal and you won't really know the difference. This is how it is done in video/film production (external boxes/software: Blackmagic, Cine-tal, etc.).

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post #83 of 3841 Old 09-22-2009, 06:29 PM
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Maybe they will send me this to replace my Edge that never worked right and now doesn't work at all. But since every device I have bought in the last two years has good scaling and de-interlacing I don't need either one anyway.

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post #84 of 3841 Old 09-23-2009, 01:59 AM
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I am looking forward to doing a review on it as soon as I am allowed to.

Hopefully soon mate

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post #85 of 3841 Old 09-23-2009, 02:11 AM
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Isn't this thing out in a week or so? How long is the NDA for?
I take it some in this thread already have a production unit for either limited beta testing or review purposes?
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post #86 of 3841 Old 09-23-2009, 05:21 AM
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It might not mean much but are the spaces between the Hdmi inputs the same as the VP 50pro? the reason being Ive got these HDMI cables that are very large on the ends and when trying to connect more than one on the VP50pro it would not fit side by side well at all.

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post #87 of 3841 Old 09-23-2009, 05:30 AM
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Isn't this thing out in a week or so? How long is the NDA for?
I take it some in this thread already have a production unit for either limited beta testing or review purposes?

I would say Beta purposes more but I plan to do a Review as soon as I get the thumbs up...
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post #88 of 3841 Old 09-23-2009, 05:43 AM
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I would say Beta purposes more but I plan to do a Review as soon as I get the thumbs up...

Just one thing Joe is there more space between the Hdmi inputs compared to the VP50Pro?

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post #89 of 3841 Old 09-23-2009, 05:51 AM
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I hate to say it but I don't remember the exact amount of space between the HDMI inuts on the 50pro. Let's just say that with using some Monster M1000s I have plenty of room. And if you are not going to use all 8 inputs (which would be the case for most) you could easily skip one (or go into HDMI input1 then 3) if room was a factor...

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post #90 of 3841 Old 09-23-2009, 06:00 AM
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I hate to say it but I don't remember the exact amount of space between the HDMI inuts on the 50pro. Let's just say that with using some Monster M1000s I have plenty of room. And if you are not going to use all 8 inputs (which would be the case for most) you could easily skip one (or go into HDMI input1 then 3) if room was a factor...

Thanks for that looking forward in reading your review.

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