New DVDO iScan Duo [2.0 firmware released] - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 3841 Old 09-23-2009, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by prepress View Post

Depending upon your target audience/clientele, yes. The average consumer will have to be trained to understand what that means and shown in real-world terms, and the difference must be noticeable. Even then, some may balk.

The visual difference between having a CMS/Grayscale/gamma controls on a display that needs them vs not is IMO larger then the difference between the displays built in deinterlacing/scaling and what a VP adds.

CMS/grayscale/gamma off vs. on:







Shawn
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post #92 of 3841 Old 09-23-2009, 03:27 PM
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Add me to the "want CMS" camp. I do it now with Lumagen HDP, and I would move to iScan Duo if it had it (I want hdmi instead of dvi -I want my audio passed thru the VP and audio delay added as needed), but as of right now, because of the lack of CMS, I would not consider a single DVDO product, sorry.
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post #93 of 3841 Old 09-23-2009, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

The visual difference between having a CMS/Grayscale/gamma controls on a display that needs them vs not is IMO larger then the difference between the displays built in deinterlacing/scaling and what a VP adds.

Shawn

You and I see this and agree the difference is noticeable. But I'm speaking of Joe Six-pack who doesn't know about these things and whose frame of reference isn't the same. There are those who would find the CMS images washed out. It's reminiscent of those who go into brightly lit chain stores, see how bright the LCD looks next to the plasma and consider the LCD better on that basis.

Those who look at the images you provided and conclude the color controls need merely turning up or down (which is exactly what I would have said in the past) would need to be educated on the grayscale issue; here's hoping they get a knowledgeable and convincing sales person.
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post #94 of 3841 Old 09-23-2009, 05:17 PM
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"But I'm speaking of Joe Six-pack who doesn't know about these things and whose frame of reference isn't the same. "

How many Joe Six-packs are purchasing external video processors?

Shawn
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post #95 of 3841 Old 09-23-2009, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"But I'm speaking of Joe Six-pack who doesn't know about these things and whose frame of reference isn't the same. "

How many Joe Six-packs are purchasing external video processors?

Shawn

I'm with you on that. I work with people in the broadcast industry (people who demand a good looking image) and I'm the only one of them with an external scaler. Well, two.

No...I guess now I have three.

I've got to stop.
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post #96 of 3841 Old 09-24-2009, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"But I'm speaking of Joe Six-pack who doesn't know about these things and whose frame of reference isn't the same. "

How many Joe Six-packs are purchasing external video processors?

Shawn

That was my point. If the intended audience for a product is the true videophile, people like most here (I'm a semi-videophile), then the VP's features are of greater interest and under more scrutiny. But Mr. Six-pack would likely need to be shown the value of the product in general first, then the CMS feature if he is considered a potential customer.

If Anchor Bay (or anyone else) is after a specific audience, then the product would need to be tailored to that audience. I don't know the reason CMS isn't included in their line somewhere, but I haven't missed it in my setup.
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post #97 of 3841 Old 09-24-2009, 11:00 AM
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Hi Prepress,

Didn't you point out that you had A pro calibration performed on your Video chain ?..

If the Pro calibrator had A full tool kit, CMS Gamma & gray scale adjustments
to work with he would have much much greater controll over you displays short comings thus getting you closer to the defined standard BTU 709/ SEMTE meaning an accurate picture as the Dirctor intended.....

Simply put, A ISF/THX calibrator can't do A whole lot with basic adjustments, and if A "Video Processor (DVDO)" could provide the needed tools as A "standard feature in there VPs for NO EXTRA COST" whats wrong with that..

That doesn't mean that you need to know how to use these tools just like it doesn't mean you need to know how to service your car....

Cheers....
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post #98 of 3841 Old 09-24-2009, 11:24 AM
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I would also really like to see a CMS built into the Duo. But perhaps the added per unit cost of a solid implementation (not all CMS systems are accurate) would drive prospective customers to the Radiance anyway, which has a tried and true CMS.

Alan
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post #99 of 3841 Old 09-24-2009, 11:55 AM
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Very Good point Alan about "not all CMS systems are accurate nor created equal"....

Cheers...
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post #100 of 3841 Old 09-24-2009, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

Hi Prepress,

Didn't you point out that you had A pro calibration performed on your Video chain ?..

If the Pro calibrator had A full tool kit, CMS Gamma & gray scale adjustments
to work with he would have much much greater controll over you displays short comings thus getting you closer to the defined standard BTU 709/ SEMTE meaning an accurate picture as the Dirctor intended.....

Simply put, A ISF/THX calibrator can't do A whole lot with basic adjustments, and if A "Video Processor (DVDO)" could provide the needed tools as A "standard feature in there VPs for NO EXTRA COST" whats wrong with that..

That doesn't mean that you need to know how to use these tools just like it doesn't mean you need to know how to service your car....

Cheers....

Yes, I had my Pioneer 111FD (with an already excellent grayscale) calibrated by an ISF tech. Since the 111 has ISF ccc modes available, he set it up and I watch everything in ISF Night mode. Pictures are gorgeous and I have no complaint. If my EDGE had a CMS system I wouldn't complain either, but it doesn't and I've not seen a need in my case.

There were other sets in the comparisons I did leading up to buying the 111 that had clear need for something, as the red push was obvious even though all sets in the comparison were calibrated (not ISF, though). And the grayscale patterns of the sets really showed most needing help, some more than others. A CMS, probably.

Are Lumagens more expensive than Anchor Bay products in general, by the way?
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post #101 of 3841 Old 09-24-2009, 04:35 PM
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not a lumagen owner, but the vision HDP (with the not-as-good CMS, as in "not all CMS' are created equal") can be found on eBay today for $599, whereas the Radiance XD (with the really good CMS where secondaries don't start getting squirrelly as you move primaries) lists for $5000, $4500 street, and you can find one for $2300 today on videogon
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post #102 of 3841 Old 09-24-2009, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewski11 View Post

Are Lumagens more expensive than Anchor Bay products in general, by the way?

Yes and no. Lumagen certainly has products which retail for more than anything that DVDO offers, but it's not an apples to apples comparison as they offer a lot more functionality in said products than DVDO. I think the only thing that the Radiance series is missing vs the iScan products is an SDI add-on. However, I find the scaling on my Radiance to be superior to that of the VP50 (I'm not sure, but I believe the scaling algorithms on the 50 and 50Pro are identical). Throw in the CMS and the responsive firmware upgrades with the Lumagens, and in the end I'd say you get what you pay for.

If you start talking used the comparison can become more asymmetric.

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post #103 of 3841 Old 09-24-2009, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch437 View Post

not a lumagen owner, but the vision HDP (with the not-as-good CMS, as in "not all CMS' are created equal") can be found on eBay today for $599, whereas the Radiance XD (with the really good CMS where secondaries don't start getting squirrelly as you move primaries) lists for $5000, $4500 street, and you can find one for $2300 today on videogon

No such thing as "street". I'm not sure where you got your number from, but Sencore (the Radiance distributor) prevents sales below MSRP.
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post #104 of 3841 Old 09-24-2009, 10:51 PM
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google. at least two active listings at that price on the first page of hits when searching for the string "radiance xd pricing". see for yourself. many other listings appear with this price although some of them could be out of date. but those two appear to be active listings. of course i didn't spend very long trying to determine if the companies are disreputable and/or there is bait and switch going on. but a reasonable person could well conclude at first glance that there are new units out there to be had for less than the official MSRP. if that is a problem for lumagen or their resellers, it won't be too hard for them to figure out who to send the cease-and-desist letters to. anyways don't shoot the messenger.
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post #105 of 3841 Old 09-27-2009, 09:00 AM
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Same ABT2010? Ugh.

240p RGB[s] compatibility? Edge has it.
Still the same old crappy noise reduction? Of course, same chip after all, right?

Seems like a really minor upgrade.

"Vintage" is good for wine, not for A/V equipment.

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post #106 of 3841 Old 09-27-2009, 08:49 PM
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i suspect how many people dare to buy a new vp from dvdo, as their features claimed in their old products are always not functional to 100%.
eg vp50pro
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post #107 of 3841 Old 09-29-2009, 09:39 AM
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I'm probably misunderstanding something but here goes:

http://www.anchorbaytech.com/product...rs/abt1015.php

The ABT1015 is Anchor Bay's newest, latest, and best chip if I read that correctly, yes?

If so, then I'm a little surprised that I'm not seeing it being used...yet.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #108 of 3841 Old 09-29-2009, 10:00 AM
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That's a scaler, not a deinterlacer.

"Vintage" is good for wine, not for A/V equipment.

-Dan D.
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post #109 of 3841 Old 09-29-2009, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonoMan View Post

That's a scaler, not a deinterlacer.

Ah. My mistake. I figured I was missing a detail.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #110 of 3841 Old 09-29-2009, 03:05 PM
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Does the Duo offer the ability to save custom aspect ratio presets? I'm assuming not, since it isn't listed among the features.

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post #111 of 3841 Old 09-29-2009, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Does the Duo offer the ability to save custom aspect ratio presets? I'm assuming not, since it isn't listed among the features.

As far as I can tell: no.

What I can't figure out is the lack of Output AR and the presence of 12V triggers...seems like a piece targeted at custom installers would support CIH setups.

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post #112 of 3841 Old 09-30-2009, 05:09 PM
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Bottom line. Is this going to give me a better picture than my VP50?

TWD
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post #113 of 3841 Old 10-01-2009, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshA View Post

As far as I can tell: no.

What I can't figure out is the lack of Output AR and the presence of 12V triggers...seems like a piece targeted at custom installers would support CIH setups.

Hi Josh,

The DUO user manual can be downloaded here

You'll see that there is more options about AR and there is a "user preset" mode. We have now the video AR and the display AR but the lack of screen AR makes it difficult (impossible ?) to use for CIH without a lens (using zoom only). To fit a 16/9 image in a 2.35:1 screen, the only way seems to be the underscan "zoom" but it may be limited to 20% as on the EDGE and this is not enough.

For that, we need a way to use the zoom to reduce the size of the image or a screen AR which would be used to fit all input formats into a visible part of the output display.

May be screen AR will come later...

Richard.
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post #114 of 3841 Old 10-02-2009, 03:39 AM
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Thanks for the link to the manual. I really hope that is just a preliminary version though as this one seems very sparse.
By the looks of we are just getting the functionality of the EDGE with some extra in- and outputs.

Edit: I had a better look and there seems to be some extra functionality compared to the EDGE.
-more aspect ratio control (as mentioned by rlemesle)
-finer control for film de-interlacing (forced 3:2/2:2, and 2:2 odd and even)


Another thing I get from the manual is that the HDMI outputs are not active at the same time, you'll have to switch between them.
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post #115 of 3841 Old 10-03-2009, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post

Yes, I had my Pioneer 111FD (with an already excellent grayscale) calibrated by an ISF tech. Since the 111 has ISF ccc modes available, he set it up and I watch everything in ISF Night mode. Pictures are gorgeous and I have no complaint. If my EDGE had a CMS system I wouldn't complain either, but it doesn't and I've not seen a need in my case.

There were other sets in the comparisons I did leading up to buying the 111 that had clear need for something, as the red push was obvious even though all sets in the comparison were calibrated (not ISF, though). And the grayscale patterns of the sets really showed most needing help, some more than others. A CMS, probably.

Are Lumagens more expensive than Anchor Bay products in general, by the way?

If I get an Edge or a Duo I'm going to be in the exact same situation as you: An already ISF calibrated 111FD.

Hopefully we can get more information about the Duo soon and anyone under an NDA can be allowed to come forth soon.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #116 of 3841 Old 10-03-2009, 12:52 PM
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I haven't done an extensive study of the Duo, but the extra connectivity would have been nice had it been available on the EDGE. But I believe it's the same ABT solution so no advantage there. Features, a more conventional physical profile, and added connectivity may be the selling points versus the EDGE (to me, anyway).

And perhaps the Duo will work better with the Oppo 83 in Source Direct mode. Since there's no AR from the 83 in that setting, everything in SD 4:3 gets stretched. My Pioneer 09 doesn't have that issue, as its Source Direct apparently includes AR control.
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post #117 of 3841 Old 10-03-2009, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post

I haven't done an extensive study of the Duo, but the extra connectivity would have been nice had it been available on the EDGE. But I believe it's the same ABT solution so no advantage there. Features, a more conventional physical profile, and added connectivity may be the selling points versus the EDGE (to me, anyway).

And perhaps the Duo will work better with the Oppo 83 in Source Direct mode. Since there's no AR from the 83 in that setting, everything in SD 4:3 gets stretched. My Pioneer 09 doesn't have that issue, as its Source Direct apparently includes AR control.

I've heard a few interesting rumors about the Duo and I'm just waiting to see once NDAs get lifted if any of those rumors end up being true or not. There may be more than meets the eye to the Duo. I honestly don't know for sure.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #118 of 3841 Old 10-04-2009, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD View Post

Bottom line. Is this going to give me a better picture than my VP50?

Doubtful. The added mosquito noise reduction might help in some cases though. But I wouldn't consider this a notable upgrade at this point. If not for the lack of RGB 240p compatibility on the Denon VP discussed on this forum, that's the way I'd go. (I have the DVDO Edge just because of 240p.) The VP50 I had before did not support 240p, and who knows if this one will. But I'd go for Denon if you don't need 240p. (for using old game consoles with RGB[s])

"Vintage" is good for wine, not for A/V equipment.

-Dan D.
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post #119 of 3841 Old 10-04-2009, 07:42 PM
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Is the DUO shipping yet? HAs AVS announced any pricing for it?

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post #120 of 3841 Old 10-05-2009, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
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Is the DUO shipping yet? HAs AVS announced any pricing for it?

My guess would be $1100. Retail of $1300 - $200 preorder price, unless AVS is discounting the $200 off an already discounted price...
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