New DVDO iScan Duo [2.0 firmware released] - Page 7 - AVS Forum

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aaronwt's Avatar aaronwt
06:55 AM Liked: 830
post #181 of 3843
10-13-2009 | Posts: 22,042
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I don't use any vertical stretching and I rarely zoom in on a source so I really can't comment since I haven't really used that.
Franin's Avatar Franin
07:02 AM Liked: 299
post #182 of 3843
10-13-2009 | Posts: 17,593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I don't use any vertical stretching and I rarely zoom in on a source so I really can't comment since I haven't really used that.

Ok thanks.
prepress's Avatar prepress
01:04 PM Liked: 68
post #183 of 3843
10-13-2009 | Posts: 3,380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcus wood View Post

There were a couple of issues that put me off using the Edge:

- The Edge doesn't support auto widescreen switching on SD over HDMI (the VP50 Pro does support this).

- The Edge doesn't have a memory for aspect ratios. What I mean is, if you want to zoom a 2.35:1 image to eliminate the black bars, you have to do that manually by pressing the zoom button on the remote a few times - you can't do it by sending a single command. Also you can't use the Edge in a setup where you use a 2.35 screen without an anamorphic lens and get it to switch correctly between 16:9 or 4:3 and 2.35:1.

Is the Duo the same as the Edge in these respects?

Also what type of comb filter does the Duo have?

I don't have a projector but a plasma, but here's my experience with AR. The below assumes Source Direct output from the player, containing no AR information.

If you play a 4:3 SD disc in the EDGE (and possibly the Duo), it will be stretched to 16:9 if the input is assigned a 16:9 output ratio. You'd then have to hit the 4:3 button on the EDGE remote. If you remove the disc and later put it back in the EDGE will remember the AR for that disc and render it properly (4:3). EDGE does provide independent AR settings for SD and HD but has to be told how to scale SD, since there's no standard AR; it can be 16:9 or 4:3. Setting my BD player to Auto output solves this, since the AR is set in the player that way. I guess you could try this procedure with a 2:35 disc and see what happens.

The ideal would be some auto AR control that includes 2:35, I guess. Are there any other VPs out there that do? I don't know, since I don't keep up with things that much.
joerod's Avatar joerod
01:34 PM Liked: 117
post #184 of 3843
10-13-2009 | Posts: 22,129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshA View Post

How's the review coming along and when do you think it will go live?

Maybe later this week.
marcus wood's Avatar marcus wood
05:43 AM Liked: 10
post #185 of 3843
10-14-2009 | Posts: 287
Joined: Jun 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post

If you play a 4:3 SD disc in the EDGE (and possibly the Duo), it will be stretched to 16:9 if the input is assigned a 16:9 output ratio. You'd then have to hit the 4:3 button on the EDGE remote. If you remove the disc and later put it back in the EDGE will remember the AR for that disc and render it properly (4:3). EDGE does provide independent AR settings for SD and HD but has to be told how to scale SD, since there's no standard AR; it can be 16:9 or 4:3. Setting my BD player to Auto output solves this, since the AR is set in the player that way. I guess you could try this procedure with a 2:35 disc and see what happens.

The ideal would be some auto AR control that includes 2:35, I guess. Are there any other VPs out there that do? I don't know, since I don't keep up with things that much.

I don't entirely understand what you mean... Perhaps I should explain what I said a bit more:

My satellite box (Sky HD) is set up so it doesn't upscale anything. It sends 16:9 SD material over HDMI with a flag to indicate that it's an anamorphic widescreen image. It sends 4:3 material without the flag. Most 16:9 displays (including my projector) will recognise the flag and switch the anamorphic display mode on or off as appropriate so the correct aspect ratio is always used (e.g. when flipping between tv stations).

I believe DVD players also send these anamorphic flags over HDMI (and analogue connections sometimes), but obviously if they are set to upscale to HD, they need to recognise the flag internally.

The scaler needs to upscale SD signals to 1080p which is always 16:9, so if you don't want to turn the anamorphic display mode on or off manually when you're channel surfing (and I expect most CI customers wouldn't want to do that), you need the scaler to recognise the widescreen flag so that it knows when to stretch SD to 16:9 and when to display it pillarboxed. My understanding is that the VP50 can do this but the feature was disabled on the Edge.

The 2.35:1 thing is a separate issue. It would be great if material carried a 2.35 flag but I don't think BDs do at the moment and I'm sure DVDs never will. It would also be great if equipment could somehow recognise 2.35 material (by 'looking' for the black bars), but I don't know of any products that can do that at the moment. For now, you have to manually press a button to tell your system when you're viewing 2.35 material.

If you have a 16:9 screen you might want to have a 2.35 button that zooms in the right amount to get rid of the black bars by cutting off the sides of the picture. Some might dismiss that as heresy, but I'm sure a lot of CI customers might want the facility to do this.

Or if you want to use a 2.35 projection screen with a 16:9 projector and no anamorphic lens, you need a scaler that will pillar box and letterbox 16:9 and 4:3 material (so that any active area of the picture is kept between the area that would appear as 'black bars' when viewing a 2.35 movie on a 16:9 screen).

Again, my understanding is that the VP50 can be set up for either of these 2.35 applications but the Edge can't.

It would obviously be good if these features were enabled on the Duo, especially if it's intended to be effectively an Edge for custom installers.

Some on this forum have been questioning whether we really need scalers in the age of HD and especially BD, so it seems to me that it would be wise for scaler manufacturers to concentrate on providing advanced automation features for custom installers, as well as on improving picture quality.
Gary J's Avatar Gary J
05:52 AM Liked: 97
post #186 of 3843
10-14-2009 | Posts: 7,650
Joined: Mar 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcus wood View Post

Some on this forum have been questioning whether we really need scalers in the age of HD and especially BD, so it seems to me that it would be wise for scaler manufacturers to concentrate on providing advanced automation features for custom installers

That is about their only hope with excellent scaling and de-interlacing capability likely to already be in a new player, AVR or display.
prepress's Avatar prepress
06:27 AM Liked: 68
post #187 of 3843
10-14-2009 | Posts: 3,380
Joined: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcus wood View Post

I don't entirely understand what you mean... Perhaps I should explain what I said a bit more:

My satellite box (Sky HD) is set up so it doesn't upscale anything. It sends 16:9 SD material over HDMI with a flag to indicate that it's an anamorphic widescreen image. It sends 4:3 material without the flag. Most 16:9 displays (including my projector) will recognise the flag and switch the anamorphic display mode on or off as appropriate so the correct aspect ratio is always used (e.g. when flipping between tv stations).

I believe DVD players also send these anamorphic flags over HDMI (and analogue connections sometimes), but obviously if they are set to upscale to HD, they need to recognise the flag internally.

The scaler needs to upscale SD signals to 1080p which is always 16:9, so if you don't want to turn the anamorphic display mode on or off manually when you're channel surfing (and I expect most CI customers wouldn't want to do that), you need the scaler to recognise the widescreen flag so that it knows when to stretch SD to 16:9 and when to display it pillarboxed. My understanding is that the VP50 can do this but the feature was disabled on the Edge.

The 2.35:1 thing is a separate issue. It would be great if material carried a 2.35 flag but I don't think BDs do at the moment and I'm sure DVDs never will. It would also be great if equipment could somehow recognise 2.35 material (by 'looking' for the black bars), but I don't know of any products that can do that at the moment. For now, you have to manually press a button to tell your system when you're viewing 2.35 material.

If you have a 16:9 screen you might want to have a 2.35 button that zooms in the right amount to get rid of the black bars by cutting off the sides of the picture. Some might dismiss that as heresy, but I'm sure a lot of CI customers might want the facility to do this.

Or if you want to use a 2.35 projection screen with a 16:9 projector and no anamorphic lens, you need a scaler that will pillar box and letterbox 16:9 and 4:3 material (so that any active area of the picture is kept between the area that would appear as 'black bars' when viewing a 2.35 movie on a 16:9 screen).

Again, my understanding is that the VP50 can be set up for either of these 2.35 applications but the Edge can't.

It would obviously be good if these features were enabled on the Duo, especially if it's intended to be effectively an Edge for custom installers.

Some on this forum have been questioning whether we really need scalers in the age of HD and especially BD, so it seems to me that it would be wise for scaler manufacturers to concentrate on providing advanced automation features for custom installers, as well as on improving picture quality.

My example was using an Oppo 83, whose Source Direct output contains no AR information, unlike my Pioneer 09, which does. The EDGE stretches SD input to 16:9 unless it's told something else by the user (it's great to be able to change AR wit the hit of a button, rather than trudge through menus). The VP50 doesn't have that problem, you're right. The Duo seems to be intended to bridge the gap between the EDGE and the VP50pro, since the VP50, 30 and 20 are now discontinued. The ABT2010 is a different chipset than the VP50 as well, since the VP50 has two chips. And the Oppo 83 uses the same 2010 chip, so that could account for the AR issue with it and the EDGE. Perhaps the chip architecture didn't allow for the 2.35 feature you seek to be included in the EDGE, or was left out to help hit a price point. I don't know if the Duo has it, but I suspect not if it depends upon the chip.

But I'm not sure about the upscaled SD signal always being 16:9. Wouldn't AR be a separate issue? I've seen 4:3 material that clearly wasn't 480i (but the broadcasters probably doctored it). Be gentle, remember, I'm only semi-technical.
marcus wood's Avatar marcus wood
02:00 PM Liked: 10
post #188 of 3843
10-14-2009 | Posts: 287
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I remember reading on the Edge thread that it originally had auto anamorphic switching (during the beta testing stage I think) but they decided to disable this feature 'because the flags weren't always implemented properly' [by source component or DVD manufacturers]. I think it might have been Josh that said that.

This explanation never quite added up for me - why not just let users decide whether to disable it if it didn't work correctly because of problems with other components? Maybe they actually did it for commercial reasons.

If you upscale SD it becomes HD (1920 x 1080 usually) which is always 16:9 although some of that image may consist of black bars at the top and bottom or sides (or both). So an upscaled 4:3 image will be 16:9 with bars at the sides, unlike 4:3 SD which doesn't have black bars at the sides.
JoshA's Avatar JoshA
03:48 PM Liked: 10
post #189 of 3843
10-14-2009 | Posts: 271
Joined: Jun 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcus wood View Post

I remember reading on the Edge thread that it originally had auto anamorphic switching (during the beta testing stage I think) but they decided to disable this feature 'because the flags weren't always implemented properly' [by source component or DVD manufacturers]. I think it might have been Josh that said that.

This explanation never quite added up for me - why not just let users decide whether to disable it if it didn't work correctly because of problems with other components? Maybe they actually did it for commercial reasons.

It was me that said that EDGE would not have that feature, but that was because EDGE was intended to target the non-existent Joe Six Pack video processor market. At the time, it was deemed that nearly any feature that a consumer could misadjust was not included.
HiHoStevo's Avatar HiHoStevo
04:05 PM Liked: 11
post #190 of 3843
10-14-2009 | Posts: 3,920
Joined: Nov 2001
Josh..........

Miss-adjusting is how I learn :-)
JoshA's Avatar JoshA
04:21 PM Liked: 10
post #191 of 3843
10-14-2009 | Posts: 271
Joined: Jun 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoStevo View Post

Josh..........

Miss-adjusting is how I learn :-)

I wasn't saying that I agreed with this approach...I was just explaining it.
prepress's Avatar prepress
08:06 PM Liked: 68
post #192 of 3843
10-14-2009 | Posts: 3,380
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^^^ Not having the feature does head off some potential defective claims and extra tech support calls.
Q of BanditZ's Avatar Q of BanditZ
08:10 AM Liked: 10
post #193 of 3843
10-15-2009 | Posts: 15,242
Joined: Dec 2003
From the Edge thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I've replaced my main EDGE with A DUO. The DUO has some advantages over the EDGE although the only thing I miss from the EDGE is the front HDMi input, but 8 HDMI inputs is more important to me.

Would you mind listing for us what you feel those advantages are, please?

And where's Joerod?
Franin's Avatar Franin
10:24 AM Liked: 299
post #194 of 3843
10-15-2009 | Posts: 17,593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

From the Edge thread:



Would you mind listing for us what you feel those advantages are, please?

And where's Joerod?

I agree because I can cancel my order on the Edge and purchase the DUO if the advantages are the for me also. One thing Ive noticed in the Edge site is constant reading on units having problems do you feel Aaron that the DUO is more stable? (I know its too early to tell but sometimes you can get a feel for these things)

Even Joerod can answer?
HiHoStevo's Avatar HiHoStevo
10:49 AM Liked: 11
post #195 of 3843
10-15-2009 | Posts: 3,920
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Joerod was involved in the Beta test on the Duo and therefor cannot make any comments until the company formally removes the non-disclosure-agreement.

As the production models are shipping I would presume that should be happening pretty soon.
marcus wood's Avatar marcus wood
12:18 PM Liked: 10
post #196 of 3843
10-15-2009 | Posts: 287
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I have now read the manual - I probably should have done that earlier.

According to that the The Duo does support auto anamorphic switching.

It looks like it may support the 2.35 functions that I asked about earlier, but it's not really clear to me. It just says the following:

Active (Aspect Ratio)
This is aspect ratio of content or movie. For example, typical movie aspect ratios are 1.85:1 or 2.35:1.
4:3 Set active aspect ratio to 16:9
1.55:1 Set active aspect ratio to 1.55:1
1.66:1 Set active aspect ratio to 1.66:1
16:9 Set active aspect ratio to 16:9
1.85:1 Set active aspect ratio to 1.55:1
2.35:1 Set active aspect ratio to 2.35:1
The iScan Duo scales the input image based on picture and active aspect ratio settings.

Does anyone know what the above actually means in terms of functionality?
joerod's Avatar joerod
12:54 PM Liked: 117
post #197 of 3843
10-15-2009 | Posts: 22,129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoStevo View Post

Joerod was involved in the Beta test on the Duo and therefor cannot make any comments until the company formally removes the non-disclosure-agreement.

As the production models are shipping I would presume that should be happening pretty soon.

Exactly.

I will say that I am seeing the absolute best picture Q in my theater to date- using it with any newer PJ (JVC 550 & 950) I have up (as well as the VW200)... Don't think they will mind that...
cavalier240's Avatar cavalier240
05:48 PM Liked: 11
post #198 of 3843
10-15-2009 | Posts: 303
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Are the two hdmi outs parallel or matrixed?
02fx4dude's Avatar 02fx4dude
06:13 PM Liked: 10
post #199 of 3843
10-15-2009 | Posts: 368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalier240 View Post

Are the two hdmi outs parallel or matrixed?

From looking at the manual it looks like only one display can be active at a time.

Brian
AndyN's Avatar AndyN
10:40 AM Liked: 19
post #200 of 3843
10-16-2009 | Posts: 1,023
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Does the Duo do custom frame rate conversion? Like 1080p @48Hz?
aaronwt's Avatar aaronwt
11:57 AM Liked: 830
post #201 of 3843
10-16-2009 | Posts: 22,042
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I was using HDMI input 8 last night and I noticed there was a red box in the up right with "HDMI 8" in it. It would not disappear. I had to go to another input and they back to 8 and then it would disappear after a few seconds.

Is there anything specific that might cause this? Or just some kind of issue with my LG BD390 being connected to the DUO?
I need to try the BD390 on HDMI 7 tonight to see if it does the same thing.
prepress's Avatar prepress
06:00 AM Liked: 68
post #202 of 3843
10-17-2009 | Posts: 3,380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcus wood View Post

I have now read the manual - I probably should have done that earlier.

According to that the The Duo does support auto anamorphic switching.

It looks like it may support the 2.35 functions that I asked about earlier, but it's not really clear to me. It just says the following:

Active (Aspect Ratio)
This is aspect ratio of content or movie. For example, typical movie aspect ratios are 1.85:1 or 2.35:1.
4:3 Set active aspect ratio to 16:9
1.55:1 Set active aspect ratio to 1.55:1
1.66:1 Set active aspect ratio to 1.66:1
16:9 Set active aspect ratio to 16:9
1.85:1 Set active aspect ratio to 1.55:1
2.35:1 Set active aspect ratio to 2.35:1
The iScan Duo scales the input image based on picture and active aspect ratio settings.

Does anyone know what the above actually means in terms of functionality?

It looks like you're being asked to set the appropriate AR for each input based on the material you're playing. I note there's no 4:3 AR option to set for 4:3 material. In such a case, perhaps the Duo will stretch it by default and you'll need to hit the 4:3 button on the remote (assuming the remote has one; the EDGE remote does), or it will display 4:3 with sidebars automatically.

But then you'll have to set the Duo's output AR for your screen, and I don't know if anything gets undone at that point.
aaronwt's Avatar aaronwt
07:26 AM Liked: 830
post #203 of 3843
10-17-2009 | Posts: 22,042
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I know mine shows 4:3 content with side bars which is what I expect. And I did notice witha DVD that it showed something in 4:3 and then automatically filled the screen with 16:9 content.
With my EDGE in the same situation I think I had to use zoom, but I'm not positive.
prepress's Avatar prepress
05:14 AM Liked: 68
post #204 of 3843
10-18-2009 | Posts: 3,380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I know mine shows 4:3 content with side bars which is what I expect. And I did notice witha DVD that it showed something in 4:3 and then automatically filled the screen with 16:9 content.
With my EDGE in the same situation I think I had to use zoom, but I'm not positive.

With Source Direct from my Oppo 83 through the EDGE, I'd have to hit the 4:3 button for 4:3 material. EDGE would remember that AR for that disc the next time I put it in, but it'd be nice not to have to do that.
JoshA's Avatar JoshA
06:34 PM Liked: 10
post #205 of 3843
10-20-2009 | Posts: 271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshA View Post

How's the review coming along and when do you think it will go live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Maybe later this week.

Should I look for it right after your Gefen HTS-Pro review?
joerod's Avatar joerod
07:15 PM Liked: 117
post #206 of 3843
10-20-2009 | Posts: 22,129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshA View Post

Should I look for it right after your Gefen HTS-Pro review?

I would have thought you of all people would understand the rules. I still have not been given the go ahead... The minute I am I will gladly post my review. What else have I done lately? Let's see, Oct. 10th I released the JVC DLA-HD550 Review. Oct. 17th I released the JVC DLA-HD950 and on Oct. 24th I am releasing the Sony VPL VW85 Review. I would really like to squeeze it in by this Thursday (waiting a call back) and I am 100% ready with some fun screen shots. Any other put downs or questions...? As concerned as you are I would have thought you still worked for them.

BTW, I have absolutely no plans to do the Gefen (if one ever makes it out of development that is)...
JoshA's Avatar JoshA
07:23 PM Liked: 10
post #207 of 3843
10-20-2009 | Posts: 271
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No reason to get all hurt, Joe....I guess some people don't understand sarcasm
joerod's Avatar joerod
07:27 PM Liked: 117
post #208 of 3843
10-20-2009 | Posts: 22,129
Joined: Nov 2002
I am not hurt. I just don't appreciate the rolled eyes in pertaining to my posts. I have been very busy lately but still wanted to post the DUO review I have been working on.

How's this? Since it is publicly released I post my Review either way by Thursday 12PM. I would think if anything they would want something "out" there...
JoshA's Avatar JoshA
07:31 PM Liked: 10
post #209 of 3843
10-20-2009 | Posts: 271
Joined: Jun 2002
Sounds good to me. My sarcasm was more about a mythical product than your productivity.
joerod's Avatar joerod
07:33 PM Liked: 117
post #210 of 3843
10-20-2009 | Posts: 22,129
Joined: Nov 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshA View Post

Sounds good to me. My sarcasm was more about a mythical product than your productivity.

I got ya. I will try and not be so sensitive to the rolled eyes.

I will plan to get it out either way by this Thursday...

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