Lumagen 1080p 72Hz RadianceXE+ & XS+ Processors!!! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 02-27-2010, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been working under the guidance of Lumagen to help bring you guys a Radiance processor that is capable of running full 1080p 72Hz (and beyond). After collecting data for a few months I finally presented my findings to Lumagen. Yesterday, Jim Peterson of Lumagen announced they will indeed be producing Radiance PLUS processors that are capable of full 1080p 72Hz!!! This is especially big news for enthusiasts running 9" CRT front projectors such as the G90, 9500LC Ultra, 909, 1209, etc.

Here is the direct quote from Jim Peterson:

Quote:


We have decided to do a special 1080p72 and 1080p75 version of the RadianceXS and RadianceXE. We are going to charge a $500 US MSRP adder for this. If you have a Radiance already you can send it in for the mod and we will do it for $500 plus shipping. This includes testing your unit at speed and replacing the board if your particular unit is not fast enough for these higher rates.

New units will have our standard 1 year limited warranty. Mods will have a 90 day warranty.

We will handle upgrades in the US and Canada. I am contacting Gordon Fraser in the UK to see if he will handle the mods in Europe.

Please call us if you are interested (503-574-2211)
__________________
Jim Peterson
Lumagen

You can also go to Lumagen's support page at http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=support to send them an email.

So you can now order a new RadianceXE+ or RadianceXS+ processor with the new features for an additional $500. Or you can send your existing XE or XS processor back to Lumagen. For $500 plus shipping Lumagen will upgrade your existing processor to the PLUS version.

There are both hardware and software upgrades that are required to run 1080p 72Hz. A regular Radiance processor is not capable of running the high clock rates on its own, and it must be upgraded before it can do so. The PLUS edition features will not be active unless you have an actual PLUS unit.

So finally we have full 1080p 72Hz capability out of the best home theater VP on the planet. I have been very excited about this for a long time and now that it is here I am so elated. It's really something watching your favorite film based content at full 1080p 72Hz. I've actually gone back and started watching Battlestar Galactica (re-imagined) over again from the start and the improvement is truly striking

I am soooo happy.

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post #2 of 22 Old 02-27-2010, 04:56 PM
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Just as long as people realize as great as this is for CRTs, it add nothing to DLP and LCD projector technologies as they can display native 24P.

Tripling the playback frame rate on a digital display panel does not improve motion artifacts.

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post #3 of 22 Old 03-03-2010, 06:54 AM
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Hello from Geneva (Switzerland),
My RadianceXE is doing a marvelous job on my Sony Bravia (LCD-LED) with an output frequency of 50Hz. While I understand the advantages of higher repetition cycles on a CRT I am a bit lost on what this would do with Plasma and LCD TVs. Is the new increased output frequency of the "+"-Radiances only visibly superior with projectors (and CRTs of course)? In other words, is there also a clear benefit for us 'standard' flat panel TV users?
Perhaps one of the experts could shed some light on this.
Thanks for your help and always helpful instructions. One can literally learn from these threads.
Cheers,
M-TomTom.
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post #4 of 22 Old 03-03-2010, 07:43 AM
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Your LCD is very likely to not even accept timings above 1080p60. And even if it would, there'd be no visible advantage in feeding signals over 1080p50 for PAL and 1080p60 for NTSC.

The added 1080p72/75 capabilities are *only* of interest for CRT users.
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post #5 of 22 Old 03-03-2010, 02:42 PM
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Thanks and Servus to Munich.
Cheers,
M-TomTom.
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post #6 of 22 Old 03-03-2010, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

Your LCD is very likely to not even accept timings above 1080p60. And even if it would, there'd be no visible advantage in feeding signals over 1080p50 for PAL and 1080p60 for NTSC.

The added 1080p72/75 capabilities are *only* of interest for CRT users.

I disagree. If you fed 1080i/60 in, inverse telecine to 1080p/24 and then pulldown to 72Hz AND the Lumagen performs better than the displays processor then it would be worth it.

But as you note digital displays top out at 60hz at the moment so it's moot.
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post #7 of 22 Old 03-03-2010, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianken View Post

I disagree. If you fed 1080i/60 in, inverse telecine to 1080p/24 and then pulldown to 72Hz AND the Lumagen performs better than the displays processor then it would be worth it.

But as you note digital displays top out at 60hz at the moment so it's moot.

There's no difference between 24hz and 72hz on a digital display provided the material was shot at 24hz. AND the display is running at the native rate of 24 or 72hz.

IOW, If the digital display could accept 24, 48, or 72hz, they would all look identical with 24hz source material.

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post #8 of 22 Old 03-10-2010, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, the higher clocks in the PLUS series processors are targeted primarily for CRT front projectors.

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post #9 of 22 Old 03-16-2010, 09:19 AM
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as said in another post, most CRT will not have the neck amplifiers for this kind of bandwith, next thing you will need a DA that runs at this frequencies......

Eidophor oil projector on a fork lifter connected to an original SONY BETAMAX, stunning picture, never seen anything better
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post #10 of 22 Old 03-16-2010, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spatz View Post

as said in another post, most CRT will not have the neck amplifiers for this kind of bandwith, next thing you will need a DA that runs at this frequencies......

The G90 runs 1080p @ 72Hz right out of the box. Here is a photo of mine doing it.



This is the 1080p SMTPE 1:1 on off test pattern. As you can see their is very little attenuation on the stock G90. Furthermore, Mike Parker and I have been working on bandwidth upgrades for the G90, and in my initial testing the upgraded G90 will show 1080p 72Hz with almost zero attenuation.

The 9500LC Ultra will also do 1080p 72Hz out of the box, but there is a lot of attenuation. However, with the Mike Parker upgrades the 9500LC will actually run 1080p 72Hz with almost no attenuation at all.

The Barco Cine9, 909, and 1209 will all also run 1080p 72Hz, but all the Barco projectors will have a good bit of attenuation.

The Sony 1292 may also be a candidate.

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post #11 of 22 Old 03-16-2010, 11:06 PM
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when I fed 72p to my G90 by the older lumagen unit the picture was softer than the 48p but could not verify if this was because of the DA in the lumagen, what DA are you using ?

Eidophor oil projector on a fork lifter connected to an original SONY BETAMAX, stunning picture, never seen anything better
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post #12 of 22 Old 03-17-2010, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CIR-Engineering View Post

The Sony 1292 may also be a candidate.

I have used a 1292 for quite some time and it already has a lot of attenuation at 60Hz so it would not be a good candidate, despite the specs that Sony claims.
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post #13 of 22 Old 03-19-2010, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CIR-Engineering View Post

The G90 runs 1080p @ 72Hz right out of the box. Here is a photo of mine doing it.

craigr

Craigr could you please indicate all timing settings you are using for your G90 to do this? I am going to upgrade from 817x1920p 72Hz and do not want to start from scratch.

kind regards
big blue
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post #14 of 22 Old 03-21-2010, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big blue too View Post

Craigr could you please indicate all timing settings you are using for your G90 to do this? I am going to upgrade from 817x1920p 72Hz and do not want to start from scratch.

kind regards
big blue

I am looking out for good working timing to run full size 1080p 72Hz. Anyone can please share them?
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post #15 of 22 Old 03-22-2010, 02:48 PM
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In the latest update (022410), 1080p72 and 1080p75 were added to the mode list for XE+/XS+ units. The timing used for 1080p72 uses all the same h/v numbers as 1080p60. The pixel clock was changed from 148,351,648 to 178,021,978 Mhz to achieve 71.93 Hz vertical refresh.

Patrick Harkin, Lumagen Inc. engineer
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post #16 of 22 Old 03-23-2010, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spatz View Post

when I fed 72p to my G90 by the older lumagen unit the picture was softer than the 48p but could not verify if this was because of the DA in the lumagen, what DA are you using ?

Uwe:

The Vision series DAC ran at 148.5 MHz even when you set 1080p72, so there had to be down-scaling horizontally. So it was softer than 48 Hertz vertical which ran at a full 1920x1080 at 48 Hertz. For the Vision digital output the maximum clock rate is also 148.5 MHz.

The 1080p 72/75 Hertz option for the Radiance runs at full 1920x1080 resolution and the clock rates are increased as needed. For example 1080p72 uses a 178.02 MHz clock as Pat noted above. Since no scaling is needed for this the image can look sharper than the Vision series if the DAC and CRT projector have the needed bandwidth.

Jim Peterson
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post #17 of 22 Old 03-25-2010, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick harkin View Post

In the latest update (022410), 1080p72 and 1080p75 were added to the mode list for XE+/XS+ units. The timing used for 1080p72 uses all the same h/v numbers as 1080p60. The pixel clock was changed from 148,351,648 to 178,021,978 Mhz to achieve 71.93 Hz vertical refresh.

Thanks Pat
022410 is now running fine with HD audio
regards
big blue
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post #18 of 22 Old 04-23-2010, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Just remember guys that when you set up 1080p 72Hz on a CRT you may want (or need) to use some custom timings to get your projector right. On the G90, I am using 2221 total horizontal pixels. And don't forget to calculate your new clock to go along with the custom timings. If you want to calculate clocks quickly, just download my spreadsheet for it HERE.

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post #19 of 22 Old 04-23-2010, 11:40 AM
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craig: Thanks for your work and support on this.

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post #20 of 22 Old 04-23-2010, 07:11 PM
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Coming soon to a release near you:

For standard releases, we are going to increase the maximum allowed pixel clock for 1080p60 to 156 MHz for CRT owners to allow for longer HBlank times. Given the good yield we are seeing to 186 MHz in our testing of units capable of being rated "+" (186 MHz for 1080p75), we believe all the units will be capable of up to 156 MHz.

HOWEVER, we only spec "non +" units up to 148.5 MHz (standard 1080p60) and so you are on your own if you have issues above 148.5 MHz.

-----

For Radiance "+" owners: We unlocked the pixel clock up to 200 MHz. Note that we spec the "+" units to 186 MHz, so if you select a pixel clock above this on a "+" unit, you are on your own.

-----

As a heads-up for "+" owners: You might find one software release works above 186 MHz and another does not. This would be due to them having a different FPGA load. We design and synthesize to 148.5 MHz, and we are pretty amazed that the Altera FPGAs we are using have so much headroom.

Jim Peterson
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post #21 of 22 Old 05-02-2010, 11:25 AM
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I went to a G90 / XS+ owner today here in Switzerland.

we tweaked around and I noticed that to get the full picture
inside the raster , we had to use the max pixelclock to fit the picture.

Htot needed to be as high as 2235 so the left side came in.

Pixelclock 199xxxxxx almost at full limit

is there something like an image shift on the moome card that might be
wrong?

Craig, how do you fit the whole picture into the raster on the G90 ?

he told me that you ran a much lower pixelclock.

we tried 1920x1080P 16/9 at 71.93Hz


Thanks


Michael
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post #22 of 22 Old 05-03-2010, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nidi View Post

Htot needed to be as high as 2235 so the left side came in.

Htot was even higher at 2445 with Vtot at 1136 (still 10 lines on top not shown)
Moome Card IFB FullHD V2

They are way off some indicative settings I got from Craig:
Vt = 1120
Va = 1080
Vf = 4
Vs = 5
Ht = 2221
Ha = 1920
Hf = 50
Hs = 50
Clk = 178922517 for 72Hz
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