DVDO Duo vs Lumagen Radiance XS/XE - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 04:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all, I had a brief look and not sure if this comparison has previously been made. I am about to purchase my first video processor and my installer has suggested the new DVDO Duo. It's a good price point, but as I would like this to last a while (5yrs), I want to make the right decision.

I intend to pair the video processor with a JVC HD990 (or similar price and quality). I am not technical to the extent of a lot on here, but would like to understand, are there significant differences in end result, between the DVDO and Lumagen? Are there any real gaps? The second display is a Samsung LED 8000.

I am only concerned about the video quality, as I will be using a Meridian HD621 to strip the audio, coupled with a G68 and five DSP5200's. Currently, I only have 4 inputs I can think of; digital TV receiver, PS3, Apple TV and satellite box.

I'd appreciate your thoughts, as not easy to organise a side by side, in Australia. Am I right in thinking the only difference between the Lumagen XS and XE, is the number of inputs? I will be using HDMI only. Also, if possible, I'd like an upgrade path to HDMI 1.4 and 3D (if that ever takes off).

If anyone has good pricing on either the DVDO Duo, Lumagen XS or XE, please PM me. I can organise pick up in the US.

Many thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Chris
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post #2 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 05:46 AM
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Chris:

Good to see you on this side of the pobd!

I am a Lumagen RadianceXE owner and know its ins and outs. I do my own calibration as I have all the necessary hardware and software to do so.

I have a very good friend of mine who has a DVDO Duo. I went over to his house and did the following:

1. Calibrated his system using the DUO

2. Calibrated his system using the RadianceXE

3. Compared the two....result was he sold his Duo and is now a RadianceXE owner

Now your results may vary but this was his choice and I can tell you that under both setups everything was tweaked as much as possible...

The display equipment was a Panasonic DB-60 Blu-ray, a Sharp 20000 projector and a FireHawk G3 screen....

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post #3 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 06:23 AM
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The only advantages that the DUO has over the Radiance are 1) price, 2) more HDMI inputs, 3) nicer user interface. The Radiance bests the DUO in every other area, most notably in scaling (cleaner result), EE/DE/NR, and its full CMS (as opposed to the incomplete one in the DUO). Not to mention Lumagen actually releases firmware updates to fix bugs or introduce new features, whereas DVDO generally does not.

If you are able to pay the premium for the Radiance, I would definitely go that direction. If you're on a budget, the DUO can still be an attractive option at its price point.

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post #4 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Joel, dropped you an email to your personal address. Cheers, Chris
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post #5 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 07:52 AM
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Only thing I can add is the there is difference in feature set between XS and XE. XE has PIP and POP, XS doesn't. XS has serial in and serial output sockets.
Expect an unexpected feature to be added to (all) Radiance fimware soon.

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post #6 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post

Only thing I can add is the there is difference in feature set between XS and XE. XE has PIP and POP, XS doesn't. XS has serial in and serial output sockets.
Expect an unexpected feature to be added to (all) Radiance fimware soon.

So, if the reduced number of inputs are not a factor, these are the only main differences with the XS?

Don't need POP or PIP, and with Lumagen's VP50/VP50PRO trade-in offer, am thinking of going from my VP50PRO to the XS . . . .
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post #7 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris1971 View Post

Thanks Joel, dropped you an email to your personal address.
Cheers,

Chris

Chris:

You have e-mail as well...

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post #8 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

1. Calibrated his system using the DUO

2. Calibrated his system using the RadianceXE

3. Compared the two....result was he sold his Duo and is now a RadianceXE owner.

Joel, could you be more specific? I, too, own both and thus can comparatively test results. I have not thusfar seen any big difference in performance, other than the obvious, which are secondary and luminance controls.

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post #9 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post

Only thing I can add is the there is difference in feature set between XS and XE. XE has PIP and POP, XS doesn't. XS has serial in and serial output sockets.
Expect an unexpected feature to be added to (all) Radiance fimware soon.

So if I don't care about PIP, POP does the XS have all the other XE features, specificallt CMS? I also don't need the new 72hz either. I also don't need the additional inputs of the XE as I have extensive external switching.

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post #10 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

So if I don't care about PIP, POP does the XS have all the other XE features, specificallt CMS? I also don't need the new 72hz either. I also don't need the additional inputs of the XE as I have extensive external switching.

Yes, the XS has all of the same features as the XE - including the same CMS - minus the ones mentioned above. As you were asking in your other post, the XS is currently the only Radiance model that offers an optional SDI input.

That's a pretty sweet deal that Lumagen is offering on trade-ins for the VP50/VP50Pro. Smart too, for those VP50/VP50Pro are fed up with DVDO's poor customer treatment (CMS for the DUO and not the VP50Pro while issues still remain on the Pro) and want an incentive to jump ship over to the Lumagen crowd.

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post #11 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Joel, could you be more specific? I, too, own both and thus can comparatively test results. I have not thusfar seen any big difference in performance, other than the obvious, which are secondary and luminance controls.

Tom, you have hit the nail on the head plus I found the i) the granularity of the Lumagen to be better and ii) the independence of the adjustments to be better (i.e. gamut changes had minimal/no impact on gray scale)...

Hope this helps...

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post #12 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 01:30 PM
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What is the price on the XS?
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post #13 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 02:09 PM
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Isn't it list at $3495? Plus $500 for the SDI if you need it?
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post #14 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 02:22 PM
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So is this correct?

XE
18 video inputs
18 audio inputs
supports HDMI DTS HD and others
72hz option
POP/POP option

XD
18 video inputs
18 audio inputs
limited HDMI audio support
no 72hz
no POP/PIP

XS
11 video inputs
limited HDMI audio support
SDI option
no 72hz
no PIP/POP

All other features identical?

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post #15 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 02:27 PM
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Just to state what might be obvious, but the OP has/is getting a HD990 which already has a CMS built in. Given that he wants an upgrade path to HDMI V1.4 and 3D, I would suggest buying the cheaper DVDO Edge now and selling it for some future 3D ready model in the future as neither the Duo or the Lumagen will be upgradable to this specification AIUI. No real need for an external CMS and therefore the expense of buying a VP with this feature unless the Other display is required to be fully calibrated of course.

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post #16 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

So is this correct?

XE
18 video inputs
18 audio inputs
supports HDMI DTS HD and others
72hz option
POP/POP option

XD
18 video inputs
18 audio inputs
limited HDMI audio support
no 72hz
no POP/PIP

XS
11 video inputs
limited HDMI audio support
SDI option
no 72hz
no PIP/POP

All other features identical?

This post with email from Jim Peterson indicates the XS will get the 72HZ as an extra also: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post18218335

And if you're a CalMAN user, add interactive calibration support for all three coming in V4: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post18189562
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post #17 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 03:27 PM
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The XD does have POP/PIP
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post #18 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

Tom, you have hit the nail on the head plus I found the i) the granularity of the Lumagen to be better and ii) the independence of the adjustments to be better (i.e. gamut changes had minimal/no impact on gray scale).

Actually, I find the granularity on the Lumagen unnecessary and counterproductive. It just lengthens the time required to complete the job without improving accuracy.

I just tested the effects on the white balance. With the CMS engaged I measured x0.312, y0.325 and with it disengaged I measured exactly the same thing. I am not seeing any interactive effects.

One point in favor of the Lumagen--at least for those who have more than one display--is ability to set, save, and then restore different configurations. I routinely watch both a plasma and a front projector. Each requires different CMS, gamma, and white balance settings. If there is a way of saving different adjustments and then restoring them on the Duo I haven't found it.

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post #19 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 04:30 PM
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I see that the XS has an SD-SDI option. Do any of the models have an HD-SDI option?

If not, are there aftermarket mods available to add SD-SDI/HD-SDI?

If not, can someone explain why that is the case? A high-end video processor should be able to take an unadulterated signal from a playback device, and you can't beat SD-SDI/HD-SDI for unadulterated.

This is the sole reason I haven't taken Lumagen up on their offer to get me out of DVDO hell.
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post #20 of 84 Old 02-28-2010, 04:45 PM
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It's just hardly requested anymore. Of course you and me want it, but who else's buying a SDI or HD-SDI modded player anymore these days ?

When I talked to Lumagen last, they said the SD-SDI option was designed, but interest was so low what production of the expansion modules wasn't decided yet. A HD-SDI option wasn't even considered yet. That was a few months ago in late 2009.

I've been using DVDO processors for some years now and last year I had the opportunity to testrun a Radiance XD against my 50pro. I've written a rather long review about both, but I never got around to translate it into english (PM me for a german link).

Bottom line was: yes, the Lumagen units have a bunchload of settings which DVDO's machines don't offer, the CMS is outstanding of course, BUT for me Lumagen's combination of the VXP processor with their FPGA was a wrong approach. The VXP's deinterlacing qualities can't reach what ABT did with the 50pro and every step by Lumagen to fix the holes (manual filmmode etc) overrides the VXP completely, so you eventually loose the NR features of the Gennum processor. I won't say that you can't be 100% happy with a Radiance, but for me the 50pro along with a VideoEQ seems the better approach. This is especially true if you have used the manual DI settings of the 50pro a lot (which I do).

Besides pure DI-quality the EE/DE features do *a lot* for SD material (and even HD). Gennum's sharpening tools are a joke in comparison and are (again) completely lost when choosing a fixed filmmode with overrides the VXP. A near perfect video processing chain for SD DVDs was a ABT2010-based Oppo Player as a source, a Radiance for scaling and color issues and a DVDO processor for EE/DE after scaling...
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post #21 of 84 Old 03-01-2010, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

So is this correct?

XE
18 video inputs
18 audio inputs
supports HDMI DTS HD and others
72hz option
POP/POP option

XD
18 video inputs
18 audio inputs
limited HDMI audio support
no 72hz
no POP/PIP

XS
11 video inputs
limited HDMI audio support
SDI option
no 72hz
no PIP/POP

All other features identical?

No it is not correct.

XS has the same HDMI AUDIO support as XE
I suspect that if you had an XD and asked Lumagen to give it 72Hz support they would endeavour to help you as well....

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post #22 of 84 Old 03-01-2010, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post


One point in favor of the Lumagen--at least for those who have more than one display--is ability to set, save, and then restore different configurations. I routinely watch both a plasma and a front projector. Each requires different CMS, gamma, and white balance settings. If there is a way of saving different adjustments and then restoring them on the Duo I haven't found it.

Excellent point because I have -- as you know --mine setup in exactly that fashion...

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post #23 of 84 Old 03-01-2010, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post

I suspect that if you had an XD and asked Lumagen to give it 72Hz support they would endeavour to help you as well....

I thought HDMI 1.1 didn't have the bandwidth available to do anything over 1080p60? Wouldn't the XD have to be upgraded to an XE first, then have the XE Plus mods applied?

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post #24 of 84 Old 03-01-2010, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Joel, could you be more specific? I, too, own both and thus can comparatively test results. I have not thusfar seen any big difference in performance, other than the obvious, which are secondary and luminance controls.

I have a Toshiba LCD with a rather coarse CMS which allows adjustment of saturation , hue and brightness.
Grayscale must be done via service menu.

I take on board your comments re secondaries and luminance but feel a better, more accurate control of grayscale and primaries would be helped by the Duo.
I can control the brightness of the individual colors via my CMS on the TV.
Will the Duo fit the bill I am describing ?

Secondly, has the Duo got the necessary hardware to be eventually upgraded (via software that is) to include brightness, gamma and secondary color control, along with the memory retention you would find helpful?

In other words is this just step one of its development or has it hardware related constraints ?

Please forgive my lack of technical knowledge on this subject.
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post #25 of 84 Old 03-01-2010, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverFox2 View Post

I take on board your comments re secondaries and luminance but feel a better, more accurate control of grayscale and primaries would be helped by the Duo.
I can control the brightness of the individual colors via my CMS on the TV.
Will the Duo fit the bill I am describing ?

Secondly, has the Duo got the necessary hardware to be eventually upgraded (via software that is) to include brightness, gamma and secondary color control, along with the memory retention you would find helpful?

In other words is this just step one of its development or has it hardware related constraints?

My understanding is that the hardware is there. It just requires a firmware upgrade. Now if and when Anchor Bay will actually do this is another matter.

BTW, the DUO already does gamma adjustments. You just move the 11-point RGB white balance controls in tandem.

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post #26 of 84 Old 03-01-2010, 08:37 AM
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I made my decision between Radiance and DVDO on these things:

1) Scaling. Less ringing on Radiance for SD DVDs
2) Color. Seems like a well tested CMS for Radiance (and more adjustments)
3) Customer Service. This was my #1 issue. Take a look at the DVDO threads and Lumagen threads. It should be pretty obvious who has better customer service.
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post #27 of 84 Old 03-01-2010, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

My understanding is that the hardware is there. It just requires a firmware upgrade. Now if and when Anchor Bay will actually do this is another matter.

BTW, the DUO already does gamma adjustments. You just move the 11-point RGB white balance controls in tandem.

Thanks for making that point concerning gamma, I obviously had no idea this was available.

Do you mean that when the 11 point normal grayscale changes are made via the Duo this automatically adjusts the gamma ?
Or do I misunderstand and the tandem you refer to has to be done separately but concurrently?

Thanks also for your view on its other capabilities.
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post #28 of 84 Old 03-01-2010, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverFox2 View Post

Do you mean that when the 11 point normal grayscale changes are made via the Duo this automatically adjusts the gamma ?
Or do I misunderstand and the tandem you refer to has to be done separately but concurrently?

If you adjust the RGB values equally up, that lowers the gamma. If you adjust them equally down, that raises the gamma. If you adjust them unequally, that affects the grayscale tracking.

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post #29 of 84 Old 03-01-2010, 12:03 PM
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BTW, the current firmware has a bug with the CMS implementation. If you put the unit in standby, then it wipes the CMS values clean. This also occurs if you have Auto-Standby selected in the menu and you just turn the TV off (this also puts the DUO in Standby). Anchor Bay has confirmed the bug and it will be fixed with the next software release.

Bottom line? De-select Auto-Standby and don't turn the DUO off once you have entered CMS corrections until this issue is fixed.

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post #30 of 84 Old 03-01-2010, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

If you adjust the RGB values equally up, that lowers the gamma. If you adjust them equally down, that raises the gamma. If you adjust them unequally, that affects the grayscale tracking.

Many thanks Tom. I appreciate your patience.

Getting the grayscale right is the first step then adjust them all by equal amounts afterwards to adjust the gamma.
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