TruVue eeColor Processor - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 72 Old 09-27-2010, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I've hunted all over here looking for a thread dedicated to this new color processor, but couldn't find one. It was being demo'd with the Vango LED projector I think. Made by Entertainment Experience I think - available separately from the Vango projector?

I'd really like to know more about this, as it looked pretty fantastic. So apologies if there is already a thread for it, but here goes...

Essentially, this is an inline color processor than goes in front of your display and works some color and contrast magic on the picture being sent.

It is not an edge enhancement device - rather, it alters the image to more closely reflect how your eyes and brain would normally have perceived the scene.

When you look at a scene, what matters to your eyes is the "relative" contrast, something that tends to be lost in what we see on video.

The device can also "scale up" the color range of the content being played, to take advantage of the capabilities of your particular display - WITHOUT affecting the realism of the colors output.

Works pretty simply, with HDMI in and HDMI out.

Anyone else saw this at the show, or have any other experience with it?

Mark?
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post #2 of 72 Old 09-27-2010, 09:50 AM
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RDJAM. We are talking two different things here. Truview eeColor Processor and the Darbee Visual Presence (trade mark) Processor. two separate things though the next version of the Truview eeColor Processor will include the Darbee processing and will upgrade both to HDMI 1.4

The Truview eeColor Box is essentially a 3 point (RGB) color management system that properly derives the correct secondaries as is also an essentially infinite axis color management system that allows one to move multiple points or areas in a color space to alternate locations by LUT substitution. So in say an expanded color space available from LED machines, colors which are noticeably wrong such as flesh tones can be moved to their proper Rec 709 location. The machine stores 6 specially developed LUTs developed under contract by Rochester Institute of Technolgy. One mode is to compensate for an operating mode in an LED DLP projector developed by TI to hold RGB constant but elevate the white point to get more light out of an LED engine. But this screws the colors up and if one were to unscrew them significantly, the extra light would be lost. So the mode in the Truview moves the colors which your memory tells you are really wrong, flesh tones and blues, and leaves other colors in the expanded color space wrong.


But the machine does a lot more. It has other modes (read LUTs) which can compensate the washing out of colors caused by some ambient light and lots of ambient light and this has nothing to do with LED projectors, it applies to all projectors. The machine can load other LUTs developed in the future for other display technologies such as laser or laser LED hybrids.

The Darbee Visual Presence (trade mark) Processor doesn`t deal with colors. It does use a fair amount of computational power. I saw it in a flat panel before and after display and through the vango LED projector not using the color box. Whatever it does it makes the image almost 3D like, deeper, sharper, and much more like real vision. They call it immersive realism. Like the EE Color Box, it goes between the source and the display. It uses some very advanced and complex algorithms inspired by neuro-biologic models of human vision according the the inventor. I really don`t understand exactly how it works but it is not edge enhancement, it doesn`t ring, but it adds sharpness and depth and clarity to everything I watched. One really could not go back and watch the unprocessed image because the processed image was soooooooo much better. I WANT ONE OF THESE NOW. It was the most amazing thing I saw at the show except for one or two ladies I met but never mind that.

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post #3 of 72 Old 09-27-2010, 11:09 AM
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Wow Mark - Barbee is cool stuff.
I looked at their website's before/after pictures. I get a sense of what they are doing, and it looks like a breakthrough.

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post #4 of 72 Old 09-27-2010, 11:45 AM
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I am going to get one. I`ll do a meet at my house and demo it.

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post #5 of 72 Old 09-27-2010, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Is the Darbee box available now?
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post #6 of 72 Old 09-27-2010, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

It has other modes (read LUTs) which can compensate the washing out of colors caused by some ambient light and lots of ambient light

Hi Mark,

Did you see this feature demonstrated? Did you get an explanation on how it was compensating?

The reason I ask is because when I went through the ambient light tables I really didn't see much of a color change....if any. What was most noticeable was a loss of shadow detail as you selected higher ambient light tables, similar to adjusting the contrast lower.

Regards,
John

Regards,
John
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post #7 of 72 Old 09-27-2010, 06:40 PM
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Not sure what you mean goes infront of your display? Like infront in the hdmi chain of components, or literally infront of your projector?
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post #8 of 72 Old 09-27-2010, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

Not sure what you mean goes infront of your display? Like infront in the hdmi chain of components, or literally infront of your projector?

Chain. Goes between source and projector.

Regards,
John

Regards,
John
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post #9 of 72 Old 09-27-2010, 10:14 PM
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If you place the box in front of the lens, the blacks really improve but the picture goes too. A joke. Sorry.

I will investigate the availability of the Darbee box tomorrow or the next day. Usually, the manufacturers don`t return to work until the Tuesday after Cedia.

Yes. I saw the eecolor modes being demonstrated in a partially lit room using a DPI bulb projector and the EE Vango. I am not sure exactly what changes the different LUT tables accomplished, but the I hope I got this right, the luminence of certain color areas of the color diagram is changed. The colors in certain parts of the spectrum get washed out a bit by the lights, reds, yellows maybe and the box restores the colors, making them a little richer and more colorful. I am sure I am not using the right terms, but it just makes in look better to my eyes and others in the audience. Everyone prefered color mode 2 over no adjustment from pure rec 709 in a partially lit room.

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post #10 of 72 Old 09-28-2010, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

To the untrained eye, the colors in certain parts of the spectrum get washed out a bit by the lights, reds, yellows maybe and the box restores the colors, making them a litttle richer and more colorful. I am sure I am not using the right terms, but it just makes in look better to my eyes and others in the audience. Everyone prefered color mode 2 over no adjustment from pure rec 709.

Thanks Mark. At least in my theater the washout was fairly obvious, I have a high gain screen. As far as going from rec 709 to EE color the colors were in fact richer with most sources that I looked at. Once in EE color and increasing the ambient light in my theater however, I just didn't see a very noticeable change in color saturation when changing to a higher ambient light color table in EE. No matter......I have a Bat Cave and don't mind the lights being off.....picture looks best that way.

Regards,
John

Regards,
John
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post #11 of 72 Old 09-28-2010, 06:59 AM
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I am curious about the pricing on these standalone boxes, especially the Darbee one.

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post #12 of 72 Old 09-28-2010, 09:08 AM
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The present plan is to incorporate it into the next generation eeColor Box which will also be HDMI 1.4 compliant. This should be available early spring or perhaps before. From what I gathered, it is not available as a stand alone box quite yet either. I don`t know if it will be and there is no information on pricing.


The Darbee site has a nice before and after gallery with a slide your cursor function to see the changes. Of course, one would be limited to your computer screen. On a big screen wow. Maybe I can wrangle one from Paul Darbee for a few weeks to demonstrate the technology to AV fans in the DC area.

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post #13 of 72 Old 09-28-2010, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

the presnt plan is to incorporate it into the next generation eeColor Box. this should be available early spring or perhaps before. from what I gathered, it is not available as a stand alone box quite yet either. I don`t know if it will be and there is no information on pricing.


The Darbee site has a nice before and after gallery with a slide your cursor function to see the changes. Of course, one would be limited to your computer screen. On a big screen wow. I and maybe I can wrangle one from Paul Darbee for a few weeks to demonstrate the technology to AV fans in the DC area.

Mark, I agree that the demos on the Darbee website are impressive; seems like with it 'off' the pic is not even HD in comparison. So you say this will work with ANY projector (or display in general), just having it between source and pj? (Detail: I run my sources through an AVR--no processing, just pass through--and then on to the pj; would the EE box come before or after the AVR, or does it matter?)
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post #14 of 72 Old 09-28-2010, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

(Detail: I run my sources through an AVR--no processing, just pass through--and then on to the pj; would the EE box come before or after the AVR, or does it matter?)

I'm currently setup that way. The EE box was on the output side of the AVR so I could check out various sources, HD, DVD, STB. Don't think it really matters as long as the EE is between the Video source and the projector. Not so sure if the AVR is doing something other than just video switching or you were using something like a Lumagen for CM as well as video switching.

Regards,
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post #15 of 72 Old 09-28-2010, 01:01 PM
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I’m quite intrigued by this color box. Since it serves as a CMS what can it do in tandem with my RS1 – in terms of fixing flesh tones and the oversaturated colors? Does it have any user-friendly gamma adjustment feature as well? My RS1 is beginning to crush blacks and getting dimmer in time. Based on the image samples in their website this processor just might be able to brighten them up, similar to film standard.
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post #16 of 72 Old 09-28-2010, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The Darbee site has a nice before and after gallery with a slide your cursor function to see the changes. Of course, one would be limited to your computer screen. On a big screen wow. I and maybe I can wrangle one from Paul Darbee for a few weeks to demonstrate the technology to AV fans in the DC area.

The gallery in the Darbee website reminds me of the DRE feature in some of the Kuro plasmas - putting some subtle contrasts into the images making them look non-washed out.

By the way, with the expanded color gamut or capability of the ee box to provide more LUT modes in the color space would that mean it will support more bit depth, such as Deepcolor, than what is current? just a thought.
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post #17 of 72 Old 09-28-2010, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post

I'm currently setup that way. The EE box was on the output side of the AVR so I could check out various sources, HD, DVD, STB. Don't think it really matters as long as the EE is between the Video source and the projector. Not so sure if the AVR is doing something other than just video switching or you were using something like a Lumagen for CM as well as video switching.

Yes, what you say of course is the way to do it: there is just one HDMI coming out of the AVR toward the pj, so the box goes in there. Tx!
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post #18 of 72 Old 09-28-2010, 02:43 PM
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The box I think provides for 6 point gamma adjustments. As a CMS system it allows for adjusting the saturation, hue, and luminence of the three primaries only. The EE box uses the correct formulas for deriving the secondaries and therefor there is no reason or provision for allowing changing to the secondaries. This of course has nothing to do with gray scale settings which are set by the RGB gains and drives within the projector controls. Some external and internal CMS allow these to be adjusted at various IRE steps from 0 to 100.

The eebox does not expand the gamut available. But it allows points within the gamut to be adjusted. For example since the source is mapped to rec. 709 and a gamut broader than that as produced by an LED lit machine, would have points mapped to certain locations within the rec709 gamut now moved to the wrong location outside the rec. 709 gamut. The system allows points obviously appearing wrong to your eyes such as the area of flesh tones to be moved to where they belong leaving the other expanded points where they they now appear. If you move them all, you will be back to rec. 709 and you won`t get new colors that were not possble to be seen without an expanded gamut. There is a lot more. Besides a CMS, there are six LUTs which can be used for specific applications such as dim lit and fully lit rooms unlike the ideal no ambient light room. Others for fixing the obvious errors in extra bright or higher white points used to increase the light output of some LED projectors, namely the Vango.

I am sure I am not explaining everything correctly but I will make the inquiries and post more.

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post #19 of 72 Old 09-29-2010, 02:42 PM
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Thanks for the info, Mark. It would be nice if this box can provide (for us non-pros) something similar to Panasonic’s color management system where you can pick a point in an actual image (not table) and make some adjustments to the color without affecting the neighboring colors at all. I don’t have a Panasonic but from what I read, at least.
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post #20 of 72 Old 09-30-2010, 04:05 AM
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[quote]I do not believe the box provides for gamma adjustments or gray scale adjustments. As a CMS system it allows for adjusting the saturation, hue, and luminence of any point. This of course has nothing to do with gray scale settings which are set by the RGB gains and drives within the projector controls. Some external and internal CMS allow these to be adjusted at various IRE steps from 0 to 100. [quote]

So the color box will only do the hue, saturation, etc. So the 6 axis part. Does it matter it doesnt do gamma etc? It wont matter if it cant do this anyways, right? As the gamma and greyscale is done in the projector, which the RS40 can do right?

What im trying to ask is, if I decide to go the external route, will I still end up with the same results I would if I were buying a higher end JVC projector with a CMS?
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post #21 of 72 Old 09-30-2010, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monstosity12 View Post

So the color box will only do the hue, saturation, etc. So the 6 axis part. Does it matter it doesnt do gamma etc? It wont matter if it cant do this anyways, right? As the gamma and greyscale is done in the projector, which the RS40 can do right?

What im trying to ask is, if I decide to go the external route, will I still end up with the same results I would if I were buying a higher end JVC projector with a CMS?

Mark,
I meant to ask you the same question last night but it was getting late. Do you mind answering Montosity's question above?
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post #22 of 72 Old 09-30-2010, 08:25 PM
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For example, the new JVC CMS can adjust the the 3 primaries, the three secondaries, and yellow. The old JVC CMS can adjust the three primaries and the three secondaries. The EE box CMS lets one adjust only the 3 primaries there being no need to adjust the secondaries ever if as the box does one uses the right formulas for deriving the secondaries. Through LUT table substitution the EE box is also an infinite axis CMS. Through LUT substitution It can adjust the saturation, hue, and luminence of any point within the color gaumet produced by the projector.

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post #23 of 72 Old 09-30-2010, 08:32 PM
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Re gray scale and gamma adjustments. Every digital projector has a gain and drive control for RGB. This allows a two pint gray scale adjustment. Some projectors allow more points to be adjusted. Additionally, many external video processors have RGB gain and drive controls in addition to those in the projector. And many allow more than 2 points be be adjusted and some allow more points than say the JVC allows. More or less the same for internal and external gamma adjustments. Hope this helps.

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post #24 of 72 Old 09-30-2010, 10:37 PM
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Ron started this thread because of comments I made elsewhere re how impressed with the Darbee video processing I was shown at Cedia. Because this technology was shown in the same but room but separate from the ee box color processor, and because these companies are cross licensees and because the Darbee processing will be incorporated in the next gen ee color processor box. Questions have been asked me about the EE box. I am not an expert on that box and have read what others have read here at AVS. Well now I have had time to read all the info on the CD included in show materials on the EE color box. User guides, operating instructions, down load instructions and a lot more. I can`t say that I have it down pat but here goes.

The processor performs gray scale calibrations by having the calibrator measure the x, y, and Y values (chromaticity (x,y) and luminence (Y)) for the three primaries RGB generated I think outside the box. The three RGB color patterns could be internal as well but I am not sure. You plug the values in and the calibration is performed. I think you might have to plug the measured Y value of native white in as well. Not sure though. The calibration box also allows the measured Y values of white to be plugged in at six different points from 0 to 100 IRE I think and to linearize the display to a gamma of 2.2. i think a different gamma target can be chosen but I am not sure how. Everything else the processor does is basically based on calling up and selecting different LUT tables for different scenarious such as an LED lit projector, for dark, dimly lit, and moderately lit rooms. Ditto for stsandard bulb lit projectors and displays. Maximum brightness and maximum color correctness can be selected. These tables particularly those for LED gamuts and goosed up white points to get extra brightness fromr LED projectors have the color corrects built in. They do not appear to be user adjustable. Sorry for my misleading you a bit and I am not sure I have it all straight yet.

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post #25 of 72 Old 10-01-2010, 02:59 PM
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In order for a CMS to be a CMS is that it allow the primaries to be adjust for xyY or hue, saturation and luminance. Secondaries are derived according to established set formulas. As long as the right formulas are used, there is absolutely no benefit in being able to adjust the xyY of the secondaries. Many CMSs don`t use the correct formulas and these can be corrected if the CMS allows the xyY of the secondaries to be adjusted. The EE color box uses the correct formulas to derive the secondaries and the CMS system does not allow the user to adjust the secondaries, there being no need. So it is a three color CMS not a six color CMS.

Gamma points are set by picking and setting the luminence of RGB combined, that is white, at various input or IRE levels. One can pick any point to be anything one wants. That is one can make any gamma curve one wants. Theoretically there are 255 such points. Gamma setting does not involve the setting of individual Ys for R,G, and or B. One sets the luminance for as many white points as the user wants and the processor will allow. In other words, to raise or lower the luminence of white, RGB combined. The EE color box allows 6 different white points across the spectrum of 0 IRE to 100 IRE to be adjusted to a set target gamma.

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post #26 of 72 Old 10-01-2010, 06:21 PM
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If the display has no design flaws, then this is fine. But if the display suffers from color decoding errors--for example, the 2009 Panasonic plasmas--then having independent control over the secondaries is quite useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

In order for a CMS to be a CMS is that it allow the primaries to be adjust for xyY or hue, saturation and luminence. Secondaries are derived according to established set formulas. As long as the right formulas are used, there is absolutely no benefit in being able to adjust the xyY of the secondaries. Many CMSs don`t use the correct formulas and these can be corrected if the CMS allows the xyY of the secondaries to be adjusted. The eecolor box uses the correct formulas to derive the secondaries and the CMS system does not allow the user to adjust the secondaries, there being no need. So it is a three color CMS not a six color CMS.


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post #27 of 72 Old 10-03-2010, 01:37 PM
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Very true. A properly designed set using the right formulas needs only a 3 color CMS. A six color can correct for use of the wrong fornulas. But one would assume that if a company cam design a proper 6 color CMS it could get the formulas correct in the first place.

Now with an external CMS which stays in line in the system, it in essence is a permabent adjunct to the projector. Thus it can in essence relca the inproper CMS and use by the set of improper formulas.

Tom. You know so much more than I do about this and I am glad you are here. what are other design errors internal to the set that a 6 color external CMS rather than a 3 color external CMS would be needed? At least I got a lot of this right I hope.

Did you get a chance to go to the darbee site. If so, any comments on the before and after gallery there. The improvements I saw at Cedia using two flat panels and an LED DLP were to my eues amazing, making to me the no Drbee processor picture basically unwatchable compared to the Darbee processed picture.

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post #28 of 72 Old 10-03-2010, 02:33 PM
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Mark, color decoding errors are all I can think of off the top of my head. However, they aren't all that uncommon, especially if the user is anal and wants to get it exactly right. In principle, if the white point and primaries are correct, then the secondaries should be correct.

I did, and I hope to obtain a unit soon for evaluation.

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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

what are other design errors internal to the set that a 6 color external CMS rather than a 3 color external CMS would be needed? At least I got a lot of this right I hope.

Did you get a chance to go to the darbee site. If so, any comments on the before and after gallery there. The improvements I saw at Cedia using two flat panels and an LED DLP were to my eues amazing, making to me the no Drbee processor picture basically unwatchable compared to the Darbee processed picture.


Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

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post #29 of 72 Old 10-03-2010, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Mark, color decoding errors are all I can think of off the top of my head. However, they aren't all that uncommon, especially if the user is anal and wants to get it exactly right. In principle, if the white point and primaries are correct, then the secondaries should be correct.

I did, and I hope to obtain a unit soon for evaluation.

Tom, it will be VERY interesting to hear your evaluation of the EE color box, and even more so the Darbee enhancements when they become available.
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post #30 of 72 Old 10-03-2010, 05:43 PM
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So, I may conclude the an external CMS stays in line and uses the right formulas, there is no need for it to be 6 color over 3 color.


It scary but after all these years I am starting to get a handle on all this.

I hope to get a Darbee unit in soon for a technology demonstation to interested parties. I will call them again tomorrow. Maybe one can kill two birds, me and you.

Mark Haflich
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call me at: 240 876 2536
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