Official Lumagen RadianceMini 3D thread. - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1327 Old 11-13-2012, 05:19 AM
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I don't understand how the 16:9 stretch to a 2:35 ratio would be useful for someone to has a giant 16:9 screen? Can't you get a 2:35 ratio by masking the top and bottom of a 16:9 screen? Doesn't that give you more flexibility?

Am I missing something ? I also feel that it's going against what the director intended if you force 16:9 to 2:35. Especially some of the scenes from tdk which changed to 16:9 in the hong kong night scenes...you get a better sense of the enormity of the skyline.

I suppose from a convenience perspective it would be handy if you have locked yourself into a permanent 2:35 screen. But I am surprised that many people here don't go for a massive 16:9 and just mask it down to a 2:35 when they need to.

I guess it's a preference thing. But please feel free to educate me if I am missing something like can the lumagen actually act like an enomorphic lens in terms of using your full 16:9 panel to produce a 2:35 image? I don't think it's possible.
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post #632 of 1327 Old 11-13-2012, 12:47 PM
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We have posted a number of Technical Tips about Radiance setup for all the common 2.35 widescreen installations. Please review these Tech Tips for a better understanding how the Radiance can simplify the installation and control of this type of system.

Tip 3- Setup with a movable anamorphic lens
Tip 7- Setup with a fixed anamorphic lens
Tip 16- Setting up 2.35 widescreen without using an anamorphic lens

Here is a link to the Lumagen Technical Tips.
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=manuals

Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com
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post #633 of 1327 Old 11-16-2012, 06:24 PM
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I recently purchased a Radiance Mini with Calman 5, as a replacement for a DVDO Duo. The Lumagen-Calman 5 combination is an incredible calibration tool. It's produced the best images I've seen from my SIM2 Mico 50.

Given the speed of the autocal, I would like to do several CMS calibrations for varying situations. However, the only variation I can think of is either a gamma of 2.2 or 2.35.

In the case of SD material, should you use a different CMS calibration from that used for bluray? My understanding is that for SD, you should make sure that the input color space is Rec. 601 but the output should be Rec. 709. Therefore, the CMS should be the same as that for bluray. Is this correct? Are there any other useful CMS variations, other than varying the gamma? My only sources are bluray or DVD.


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post #634 of 1327 Old 11-17-2012, 06:51 AM
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post #635 of 1327 Old 11-17-2012, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

I recently purchased a Radiance Mini with Calman 5, as a replacement for a DVDO Duo. The Lumagen-Calman 5 combination is an incredible calibration tool. It's produced the best images I've seen from my SIM2 Mico 50.
Given the speed of the autocal, I would like to do several CMS calibrations for varying situations. However, the only variation I can think of is either a gamma of 2.2 or 2.35.
In the case of SD material, should you use a different CMS calibration from that used for bluray? My understanding is that for SD, you should make sure that the input color space is Rec. 601 but the output should be Rec. 709. Therefore, the CMS should be the same as that for bluray. Is this correct? Are there any other useful CMS variations, other than varying the gamma? My only sources are bluray or DVD.
Mark

In your scenario REC601 and REC709 do not refer to colourspaces but to colour matrixes used for encoding the colour data. You want SMTE-C targets for NTSC, SD material in your calibration and rec709 for HD as you have already done.

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post #636 of 1327 Old 11-17-2012, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post

In your scenario REC601 and REC709 do not refer to colourspaces but to colour matrixes used for encoding the colour data. You want SMTE-C targets for NTSC, SD material in your calibration and rec709 for HD as you have already done.
Gordon
To clarify...if the Mini3D is set for SD-HD up-conversion I think we still want to calibrate to Rec709 as the Mini3D should take care of the Rec601- to Rec709 transformation. No?
If the Mini is outputting SD then one would want to calibrate to Rec601 but why would anyone not use the Mini to perform the HD up-conversion as it does it better then anything else.

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post #637 of 1327 Old 11-17-2012, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

To clarify...if the Mini3D is set for SD-HD up-conversion I think we still want to calibrate to Rec709 as the Mini3D should take care of the Rec601- to Rec709 transformation. No?
If the Mini is outputting SD then one would want to calibrate to Rec601 but why would anyone not use the Mini to perform the HD up-conversion as it does it better then anything else.

Yes, this is what I understood.

This does bring me back to the original question on the utility of multiple CMS calibrations. If you are outputting only HD, is there any CMS variation that would be useful, other than multiple gamma curves?

It is also assumed you will be doing a cube calibration. Is it useful to have a cube CMS and another non-cube? To me, it seems not, unless the cube calibration is bringing down white luminance and you feel that white level is more important than an accurate cube calibration. Is this right?

Mark
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post #638 of 1327 Old 11-19-2012, 01:59 PM
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Possible alternate calibrations:
Dark room 6500K
Bright room 6500K
Calibration for 3D glasses 6500K
B&W film 5400K

Randy Freeman
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post #639 of 1327 Old 11-19-2012, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfpublic View Post

Possible alternate calibrations:
Dark room 6500K
Bright room 6500K
Calibration for 3D glasses 6500K
B&W film 5400K
Randy Freeman

Yes. Additionally different gamma options. For instance, one each for 2.2, 2.3, and 2.4. Another use is high vs low bulb mode in a projector.
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post #640 of 1327 Old 11-19-2012, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I think we still want to calibrate to Rec709 as the Mini3D should take care of the Rec601- to Rec709 transformation. No?

no.

as i said already. rec601 in this context is just a transformation mathematical matrix for turning component video to rgb..PAL and NTSC both use REC601 MATHS to describe rgb to component video and back again....yet PAL and NTSC both have different colour gamuts.......If you are watching ntsc source material, whether it is upscaled to 1080P or not, it should be displayed as smptec. We've also had the discussion on this forum before about B+W film....It has been pointed out that a B+W film should be mastered for PAL/NTSC/HDTV so that the while balance, when played back at the specified tv standard it has been remastered for, matches the original cinema representation....so if it looked warm in cinema it should be mastered to have the same look on tv with our D65 white balance and colour formats.

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post #641 of 1327 Old 11-22-2012, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post

as i said already. rec601 in this context is just a transformation mathematical matrix for turning component video to rgb..PAL and NTSC both use REC601 MATHS to describe rgb to component video and back again....yet PAL and NTSC both have different colour gamuts.......If you are watching ntsc source material, whether it is upscaled to 1080P or not, it should be displayed as smptec. We've also had the discussion on this forum before about B+W film....It has been pointed out that a B+W film should be mastered for PAL/NTSC/HDTV so that the while balance, when played back at the specified tv standard it has been remastered for, matches the original cinema representation....so if it looked warm in cinema it should be mastered to have the same look on tv with our D65 white balance and colour formats.

Gordon has a very interesting point for B&W. I am not sure how many editors do as Gordon suggests, or if some ignore the issue he presents. Because of this I have a suggestion for an additional input memory/output-calibration based on this concern.

If you are not sure of whether the B&W source's color gamut was correctly modified to view on a D65 display, you can select a different input memory, turn the color gain for that input memory down to 0, select a different output configuration CMS memory, and then calibrate for 5400K (remembering to Save after you are done). Then when you want to watch a B&W source just select that input memory and you will get 5400K no matter what the editor did, or did not do, to the color Gamut of the B&W source. This also has the fun, and potentially useless, ability to convert any color source material for viewing in glorious B&W.

Jim Peterson
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post #642 of 1327 Old 11-24-2012, 06:55 AM
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got a question here regarding Aspect Ratio output.... my Mini 3D is on sw rev: 103012

I'm watching a Blu-Ray with native 16:9 (1.78) aspect ratio. When I go to Menu > Output > Styles > [Style slot] > Aspect Ratio and enter 2.35 I was expecting to get black bars top & bottom of the picture, instead I get black bars left & right (which is what I expected entering 1.33). When I enter 1.33 I get black bars top & bottom and not left & right...

Am I misunderstanding this ?

Thanks.

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post #643 of 1327 Old 11-24-2012, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

got a question here regarding Aspect Ratio output.... my Mini 3D is on sw rev: 103012
I'm watching a Blu-Ray with native 16:9 (1.78) aspect ratio. When I go to Menu > Output > Styles > [Style slot] > Aspect Ratio and enter 2.35 I was expecting to get black bars top & bottom of the picture, instead I get black bars left & right (which is what I expected entering 1.33). When I enter 1.33 I get black bars top & bottom and not left & right...
Am I misunderstanding this ?

The Output Styles tell the Radiance what aspect ratio your screen is, not the content. You've told it that you have a 2.35:1 screen and are watching 16:9 content, so it pillarboxes the picture.

The controls for content aspect ratio are the buttons at the top of the remote.

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post #644 of 1327 Old 11-24-2012, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The Output Styles tell the Radiance what aspect ratio your screen is, not the content. You've told it that you have a 2.35:1 screen and are watching 16:9 content, so it pillarboxes the picture.
The controls for content aspect ratio are the buttons at the top of the remote.

Josh, thanks for the info. So my output style aspect ratio is 1.78. When I press 2.35 on the remote it stretched the picture to 2.35, but instead of staying within the width of my screen and introducing black bars top & bottom, it stretches to full height, which makes me lose picture on the left & right of my screen...

If I wanna view content in 2.35 on my 1.78 screen, which would introduce black bars top & bottom (and vertically squeeze the picture), I guess I have to tell the Mini I have a 1.33 screen (as per my above post) ?

Thanks.

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post #645 of 1327 Old 11-25-2012, 12:34 AM
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does any fellow Radiance owner have suggestion on a standalone media player (must-have: network access capability) that support pass-through of native resolutions (i.e. avoiding auto-upscaling) ?

I have a WDTV Live HD that I use to display all kinds of files (480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p) and the WDTV does not allow pass-through, so it will always upscale to whatever output resolution it is set to... it does a decent job (I guess) upscaling the content (1080p60 12-bit deep-color) but I highly assume the Mini is better and with native resolutions coming to the Mini, I can utilize much more specific setups in the Mini...

Any suggestions ?

Thanks.

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post #646 of 1327 Old 11-25-2012, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

Josh, thanks for the info. So my output style aspect ratio is 1.78. When I press 2.35 on the remote it stretched the picture to 2.35, but instead of staying within the width of my screen and introducing black bars top & bottom, it stretches to full height, which makes me lose picture on the left & right of my screen...
If I wanna view content in 2.35 on my 1.78 screen, which would introduce black bars top & bottom (and vertically squeeze the picture), I guess I have to tell the Mini I have a 1.33 screen (as per my above post) ?
Thanks.
- M

If your screen is 1.78, then set aspect ratio in style to 1.78 (which I think is the default anyway). You do NOT need to do anything to watch 2.35 on your 1.78 screen with black bars top and bottom. That is automatic already. If you do NOT want the black bars, then you press 2.35 to "zoom in", but like you said, you lose left and right.
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post #647 of 1327 Old 11-25-2012, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

If your screen is 1.78, then set aspect ratio in style to 1.78 (which I think is the default anyway). You do NOT need to do anything to watch 2.35 on your 1.78 screen with black bars top and bottom. That is automatic already. If you do NOT want the black bars, then you press 2.35 to "zoom in", but like you said, you lose left and right.

fight4yu,

thanks for explaining, but I know that I don't need to do anything on the signal in this test, which was 1.78 and my screen is 1.78... smile.gif

I was playing around with the capabilities of the Lumagen and wanted to check out the quality when it resizes the frame (and a vertical squeeze - as in this test - usually don't look good)...

I was just surprised that it doesn't confine to the width of the actual display, but coming back to the (otherwise useless) test scenario I set up, u can still get the requested output if you set your screen to 1.33...

Thanks again.

- M

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post #648 of 1327 Old 11-25-2012, 09:08 AM
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The "2.35:1" button on the remote is intended for viewers who have 2.35:1 screens. It will stretch the picture to eliminate the black bars, so that an anamorphic lens can reshape it back to the proper shape.

All Blu-ray content is natively 16:9 with 1920x1080 pixels. If a movie has a 2.35:1 aspect ratio, some of those pixels are used to create the black letterbox bars. If you have a 16:9 screen and want to watch the movie letterboxed, you don't need to do anything. That's the default. As far as the Radiance knows, the video it's receiving is 16:9 unless you tell it otherwise.

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post #649 of 1327 Old 11-25-2012, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The "2.35:1" button on the remote is intended for viewers who have 2.35:1 screens. It will stretch the picture to eliminate the black bars, so that an anamorphic lens can reshape it back to the proper shape.
All Blu-ray content is natively 16:9 with 1920x1080 pixels. If a movie has a 2.35:1 aspect ratio, some of those pixels are used to create the black letterbox bars. If you have a 16:9 screen and want to watch the movie letterboxed, you don't need to do anything. That's the default. As far as the Radiance knows, the video it's receiving is 16:9 unless you tell it otherwise.

Josh,

thanks !

As I posted above, I was running a simple test where the Lumagen resizes a true 1.78 source (no black bars top & bottom) to a 1.78 output with black bars top & bottom (basically squeezing the pic vertically), just to see the quality of the conversion - obviously, this has less to none real life functionality...

After your and fight4yu's explanation, I now understand what the remote controls and the menu settings initiate.

Thank you.

- M

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post #650 of 1327 Old 11-30-2012, 12:03 PM
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Hey Guys,
I've got a Lumagen Radiance Mini inbound from AV Sales, as well as a Sony HX929 LED from Magnolia. I'm looking to use the Lumagen for calibration (once I either do a Pro Cal or later get Calman+meter), as well as to have better control over specific picture modes (e.g. Day/Night, or for particular devices with the virtual inputs), and a few other things. The HX929, while a 2011 model, has gotten excellent reviews from CNET and Secrets of Home Theater, and holds its own vs. both the current HX950 from Sony and the Sharp Elite. I'm space limited or else I'd do a large size VT50, if not a projector.

I'm planning on having my Tivo Series 3, Oppo BDP-93, and Apple TV connected to my Denon 4311, and have a single HDMI cable go to the Radiance Mini. The Radiance will in turn output to my Darbee Darblet, and then to the HX929.

Anyway, I did an AVS search on combinations of Sony TVs with Lumagen, and at least for the HX909 (a predecessor of the HX929), there were compatability issues between Lumagen and the Sony in the recommended YCbCr mode; apparently the Sony somehow only produced proper colors in RGB mode, but would work in that mode. I found a post from Doug Blackburn on the Radiance XD that mentioned this as a known issue, and that hadn't been resolved at the time he posted (2/24/2011):
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1039169/official-radiancexd-support-thread/600#post_20056449

Does anyone know if later releases of the Lumagen firmware after 3/11 fixed this, or had experience using Lumagen with either the HX929 or HX950 in YCbCr? Or is Sony & Lumagen a combination to avoid? Apparently on AVS, I'm the only person to have thought of using a newer Sony with a Lumagen:(.

Stuart

 

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post #651 of 1327 Old 11-30-2012, 03:19 PM
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Stuart,

Add to that the Darbee converts everything to RGB and the Tivo S3 is 444.

Looks like a great opportunity for handshake issues going through so many devices.

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post #652 of 1327 Old 11-30-2012, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
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Stuart,
Add to that the Darbee converts everything to RGB and the Tivo S3 is 444.
Looks like a great opportunity for handshake issues going through so many devices.

Jim,
I actually have the TiVo on component input to the 4311 currently, so at least that's not HDMI. The only addition to the pre-Darbee signal chain would be a Radiance Mini between the 4311 and the Darblet. At least so far, no issues with the Darbee (knock on wood). I bought it in late September, and it has the most recent firmware that had the 'Lumagen fix'.

Maybe a Lumagen with RGB output isn't so bad given what the Darbee is doing internally, even with an HX929 that might be stuck in RGB mode like the HX909 was reported to be? Unfortunately the only way to know is to try. I suppose I can always return the Sony if I need to as a last resort....

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post #653 of 1327 Old 12-01-2012, 06:54 AM
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My Mini 3D hooked with my 1-Darblet DVP5000 to my Pan pT-AU 8000w works flawlessly
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post #654 of 1327 Old 12-01-2012, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
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... Does anyone know if later releases of the Lumagen firmware after 3/11 fixed this, or had experience using Lumagen with either the HX929 or HX950 in YCbCr? Or is Sony & Lumagen a combination to avoid? Apparently on AVS, I'm the only person to have thought of using a newer Sony with a Lumagen:(.

The issue is not in the Radiance but was in the display. It appeared it had issues parsing the HDMI Info Frame information. In any case it was not responding to change from the default RGB mode correctly. So nothing to do in the Radiance to fix it. The workaround was, and is, to not change away from RGB mode.

We do still see this issue in a few displays and projectors, which is why we leave our output in RGB mode until the user changes it.

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post #655 of 1327 Old 12-02-2012, 11:51 AM
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Hi, I have two questions, maybe strange questions, but I am curious about them.

- Why are lumagen porducts so expensive? I mean, they are, to me, definetly worth the cash in performance, but with the relatively low cost of electronic gear I wonder why a box with a chip in it has a relativeli high price. Is it all r&d, is it because it caters to a relatively small market, is it because the processors are exotic, I am curious.

- If lumagen manages to get calibration dialed in like this, whh can't tv manufacturers? If I was CEO of Panasonic or Samsung, I'd call Lumagen and try and work out a deal, a flagship tv with lumagen mini 3D calibration capability build in would sell like crazy among home theater enthousiasts.
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post #656 of 1327 Old 12-02-2012, 02:42 PM
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I suppose the R&D has to be paid for somehow, as does the (excellent) support. When I bought my Mini3D nearly 2 years ago it didn't have all the features it has now (in particular the 125 point CMS, but other improvements too). I've paid exactly £0 extra for these additional features, so I consider that it is payback for the high purchase price, but I've enjoyed the excellent picture quality since day one. I did once buy an older Lumagen HDQ and found that despite it being a discontinued product they added (via a firmware update) a basic, but useful, gamut control feature. It's this support and 'free' additional features that keep me going back to Lumagen. I've owned a VideoEQ Pro and a DVDO Edge, and the support by comparison was poor to non existent.

I should temper my comments above in that I'm a 'get what you pay for' sort of person: I've tried doing things on the cheap before (including non AV subjects) and I've found that it often works out better in the long run to buy the thing you really want to start with rather than replacing the cheaper option in a short time.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #657 of 1327 Old 12-03-2012, 12:06 AM
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I am getting oppo-103 to replace my 3 years sony player in a chain:
DVD/br -> onkyo 5008 -> mini3D -> darbee -> splitter -> {PJ,TV}
I have now mini3d doing all video processing. Should I keep it this way and set oppo103 to direct stream? Thanks.
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post #658 of 1327 Old 12-03-2012, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max90034 View Post

I am getting oppo-103 to replace my 3 years sony player in a chain:
DVD/br -> onkyo 5008 -> mini3D -> darbee -> splitter -> {PJ,TV}
I have now mini3d doing all video processing. Should I keep it this way and set oppo103 to direct stream? Thanks.

IMO; yes. I use source direct out of my 103 to a Radiance XD and did the same with the 83 I use previously.
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post #659 of 1327 Old 12-03-2012, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

IMO; yes. I use source direct out of my 103 to a Radiance XD and did the same with the 83 I use previously.
So I have my OPPO BDP-103 going into my YAMAHA RX-A2000 then out to my Radiance Mini 3D then to the Darbee then out to my PT-AE8000. I have no issues but do at time have issues when doing 3-D as it keeps going in and out then I have to turn off the Mini 3D then it starts to work. Do I have the units in the correct order ? is this what they call a hand shake issue? if so what is the workaround...?
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post #660 of 1327 Old 12-03-2012, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by widerscreen View Post

So I have my OPPO BDP-103 going into my YAMAHA RX-A2000 then out to my Radiance Mini 3D then to the Darbee then out to my PT-AE8000. I have no issues but do at time have issues when doing 3-D as it keeps going in and out then I have to turn off the Mini 3D then it starts to work. Do I have the units in the correct order ? is this what they call a hand shake issue? if so what is the workaround...?

I would suggest using the Oppo's hdmi 1 output to send video directly to the lumagen, while using hdmi 2 output to go into your receiver or pre/pro for audio. Any opportunity to remove a device from the video signal path should be seized, in my opinion.

Edit: I use this setup w/ my Oppo bdp-103, lumagen, & Darbee and experience no handshake issues.
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