Official Lumagen RadianceMini 3D thread. - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 1223 Old 03-29-2014, 06:59 AM
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When I setup auto-cal in ChromaPure, I get a message that Lumagen Radiance is not configured.

Edit: got it going.
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post #1082 of 1223 Old 03-30-2014, 10:34 AM
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I have a setup questions on the best route to take...

I'm setting up my media room and I'm thinking about bypassing the Mini for gaming but want all my sources to use the Darbee I have... I'm basically using the Mini for Auto Cal on my OPPO if I bypass for gaming...

1. All sources go into the Lumagen and out to the Darbee and then to my Projector. Main concern is the bit of extra input lag the Lumagen introduces.

2. I run a second HDMI to my projector but then I lose out on using the Darbee on the output from my OPPO or the rest of my devices. So I could sell the 103 and get a 103d.

3. Run everything like number 1 except put in a hdmi switcher to switch between the AVR and Mini.

If I did so number 3 does anyone have any suggestions? I hesitate adding in another device in the chain, but if it's something that works, I could be OK with it....

Any other suggestions?
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post #1083 of 1223 Old 03-30-2014, 12:23 PM
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In the image below, 1080p60 is for Blu-ray, correct? For DVD, should I change to Memory B, Mode 480? Or should I simply keep In Condition on "Other"? Is that the Auto input mode for the Radiance? I have the Oppo on Source Direct btw.



Sorry, guys...this is my first my processor.
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post #1084 of 1223 Old 03-30-2014, 12:50 PM
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Hi Pres2play,

Generally Blu-ray disk will be encoded with the native frame rate of the film, approx. 24Hz - so 1080p24 is the mode for Blu-ray, just fire one up and then check the Lumagen Info screen (OK on the remote, when not displaying any menus). Use the same info screen to see what you are getting when playing some DVDs - but you are probably already correct on that one, 480.
If your setup requires different calibrations for each refresh rate (24, 50, 60) then allocate individual CMS memories and use the menu you showed above to tie each CMS to its appropriate input mode.
My setup uses three CMS memories, one for Blu-ray at 24Hz, one for all my broadcast material, that's 50Hz in the UK - and I've got another for any 60Hz material (the odd DVD from the US). Once configured the Lumagen automatically selects the appropriate CMS based on input signal.
Be sure to check out the Technical Tips on the Lumagen Support pages - some good info there.
Regards, Mike.
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post #1085 of 1223 Old 03-30-2014, 04:39 PM
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I only have the Oppo connected to the Radiance. Blu-rays look fine but when I play a DVD it skips frames. I'm wondering I need to setup a separate mode for DVD.

Edit: Just saw Radiance Tech Tip 4: Automatic Switching of Output Resolutions. Cool, but should be included in the owner's manual.
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post #1086 of 1223 Old 03-31-2014, 12:45 AM
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Took me a few hours to learn the memory adjustments and found that DVDs don't look their best with the Oppo in Source Direct mode. I'm not sure if the Mini is to blame, but setting the Oppo on 480p results in a smoother picture, with hardly any skipping.
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post #1087 of 1223 Old 03-31-2014, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

Took me a few hours to learn the memory adjustments and found that DVDs don't look their best with the Oppo in Source Direct mode. I'm not sure if the Mini is to blame, but setting the Oppo on 480p results in a smoother picture, with hardly any skipping.

source direct for DVD should be 480p... what did your Lumagen report when you set it to source direct?
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post #1088 of 1223 Old 03-31-2014, 05:38 AM
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It shows 480 in Source Direct too, but the picture is unstable; the timing seems odd, slow. Then it will drop a few frames, resulting in jerky motion.

In all fairness, I don't see any reference to Source Direct in the Lumagen manual. In the tech tip pages, it says to set the input source to 1080p for a 1080p source. It says nothing about using Source Direct mode of the player, which is the raw signal.

If I send the Lumagen 1080p or 480p, isn't it the player that is doing the scaling?

EDIT: I guess there's no scaling at 1080p at all, correct?
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post #1089 of 1223 Old 03-31-2014, 07:15 AM
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If you set an Oppo to source direct and play a REGION1 DVD it should output 480i, not 480P. If the Lumagen is set to OUTPUT MODE AUTO then you should get exactly the same motion as you would with the Oppo outputting 1080P...or 480P for that matter. If the Oppo is set to do 24P for DVD turn that OFF as it's likely causing the motion problems. Setting the Oppo to Source direct and 24P from DVD to OFF should result in the best DVD quality

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post #1090 of 1223 Old 03-31-2014, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post

I have a setup questions on the best route to take...

I'm setting up my media room and I'm thinking about bypassing the Mini for gaming but want all my sources to use the Darbee I have... I'm basically using the Mini for Auto Cal on my OPPO if I bypass for gaming...

1. All sources go into the Lumagen and out to the Darbee and then to my Projector. Main concern is the bit of extra input lag the Lumagen introduces.

2. I run a second HDMI to my projector but then I lose out on using the Darbee on the output from my OPPO or the rest of my devices. So I could sell the 103 and get a 103d.

3. Run everything like number 1 except put in a hdmi switcher to switch between the AVR and Mini.

If I did so number 3 does anyone have any suggestions? I hesitate adding in another device in the chain, but if it's something that works, I could be OK with it....

Any other suggestions?

Have you set up a memory on the mini to use Game mode? That bypasses the VXP chip so you get the shortest delay time from the scaler. I have installed radiance in EA Games in uk, as well as at several clients who are heavy gamers and none of them have even used the game mode capabilities...they are just going from scaler direct to plasma or projectors though, no darbee inlines...(but darbee is fast processing as well i believe)

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post #1091 of 1223 Old 03-31-2014, 07:24 AM
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Gordon,

I have enabled a memory to use Game Mode... In a review Game Mode still added 44MS of input lag....That added with the 35 from my projector and I do notice it a bit, I might be more prone to input lag...but I can feel it..

"Input Lag
The Radiance Mini 3D features a Game Mode, which naturally prioritises speed over quality. The biggest difference is in deinterlacing: in the Game Mode, motion-adaptive deinterlacing is bypassed in favour of simply repeating every line twice (aka “bob deinterlacing”), which converts fields to frames simply by repeating every second line, causing jaggedness and vertical twitter – but most importantly of all for gaming, faster response. Fortunately, the current generation of games consoles all output progressive video signals, meaning that this won’t be necessary.
We didn’t test the Mini-3D with interlaced input, and given that the device only features HDMI inputs – no Component or RGB SCART connectivity is given on this slimmed-down unit – you’ll only be able to use the current generation of games consoles (Nintendo Wii excluded) on it, anyway, so there’s no reason to send it interlaced video in the first place. With the Game Mode enabled, we measured our system as featuring 60ms of input lag relative to a lag-free CRT. The Panasonic ST50 we were using for this review has around 16ms of lag of its own, meaning that the Mini3D can be calculated as adding around 44ms of lag in its Game Mode."
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post #1092 of 1223 Old 03-31-2014, 08:37 AM
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I've tested an XS, which I think has the same internals as a mini. It adds 16ms in game mode, and 25ms without.
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post #1093 of 1223 Old 03-31-2014, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post

If you set an Oppo to source direct and play a REGION1 DVD it should output 480i, not 480P. If the Lumagen is set to OUTPUT MODE AUTO then you should get exactly the same motion as you would with the Oppo outputting 1080P...or 480P for that matter. If the Oppo is set to do 24P for DVD turn that OFF as it's likely causing the motion problems. Setting the Oppo to Source direct and 24P from DVD to OFF should result in the best DVD quality

My setting are similar for DVDs and the Mini 3D has always been flawless. 480i input and 1080p60 output.
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post #1094 of 1223 Old 03-31-2014, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectronicTonic View Post

I've tested an XS, which I think has the same internals as a mini. It adds 16ms in game mode, and 25ms without.

That is very interesting....I wonder why the other reviewer came up with 44ms. It really seemed like 44ms was quite a bit to add for game mode.
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post #1095 of 1223 Old 03-31-2014, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post

That is very interesting....I wonder why the other reviewer came up with 44ms. It really seemed like 44ms was quite a bit to add for game mode.
Do you know what they used for their test? I use the Leo Bodnar tester. I also tested multiple displays.
As far as your situation, if you're sensitive to input lag. Just get an HDMI switch and bypass the mini for gaming.
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post #1096 of 1223 Old 03-31-2014, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectronicTonic View Post

Do you know what they used for their test? I use the Leo Bodnar tester. I also tested multiple displays.
As far as your situation, if you're sensitive to input lag. Just get an HDMI switch and bypass the mini for gaming.

I did pick up a 2/1 HDMI Switch from MonoPrice.

I do appreciate your feedback though.
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post #1097 of 1223 Old 03-31-2014, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectronicTonic View Post

I've tested an XS, which I think has the same internals as a mini. It adds 16ms in game mode, and 25ms without.

yes 44ms does seem unrealistic...i am sure that Jim has stated on this forum that the worse case scenario, when the vxp chip is actually in line, is around 45ms.....so around 20ms would seem more likely i think

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post #1098 of 1223 Old 03-31-2014, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post

If you set an Oppo to source direct and play a REGION1 DVD it should output 480i, not 480P. If the Lumagen is set to OUTPUT MODE AUTO then you should get exactly the same motion as you would with the Oppo outputting 1080P...or 480P for that matter. If the Oppo is set to do 24P for DVD turn that OFF as it's likely causing the motion problems. Setting the Oppo to Source direct and 24P from DVD to OFF should result in the best DVD quality

The OK command on the remote confirms 480i in Source Direct, and the Mini's output mode is on AUTO. DVD 24p is also turned off. Still, DVD appears smoother with the Oppo in 480p. Strange.
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post #1099 of 1223 Old 04-01-2014, 02:24 AM
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I just discovered the Oppo does a perfect job in AUTO mode -- no need to mess with Source Direct. Now I can start calibrating. Yippee!!!

Lumagen on-screen display with Oppo Output Resolution set to AUTO:
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post #1100 of 1223 Old 04-01-2014, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

I just discovered the Oppo does a perfect job in AUTO mode -- no need to mess with Source Direct. Now I can start calibrating. Yippee!!!

Lumagen on-screen display with Oppo Output Resolution set to AUTO:

Before you get too far: Lumagen recommends you set the output color space to YCbCr 4:2:2. I believe the reason is because this mode sends 10 bits per color vs only 8 bits for the others.

The reason most people recommend Source Direct for the Oppo (or any DVD/Blu-ray player) is because the Radiance video processing is second-to-none. But nobody here seems to understand the problems you are having with DVD, so if this is working for you, we're happy too. smile.gif
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post #1101 of 1223 Old 04-01-2014, 01:14 PM
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For all Radiance products, in game mode (i.e. bypass the GF9450 video deinterlacer/enhancer chip) with Genlock on, the internal delay for 60 Hertz progressive input to 60 Hertz progressive output should be around 5 mS. Without Genlock it should be 22 mS or less. For 50 Hertz progressive input and output Genlock mode should be the same 5 mS, and the non-genlock mode should be 25 mS or less.

You should also put the display/projector in game-mode if one is available to minimize its internal delay.
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post #1102 of 1223 Old 04-01-2014, 01:47 PM
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For DVD material there are several considerations. [EDIT] For many DVDs "24 Hertz" material has been edited and compressed as "480i" (or 576i) material. This short-cut taken by many studios can be the cause of "Bad-edits" which can in-turn cause issues with deinterlacing.

Some DVDs use a flag embedded in the material that tells the player how to convert the interlaced fields back to progressive. This can help, but one of the main encoding chips used for encoding many of the "pre-Bluray" DVDs had an error in the generation of this flag which could cause problems.

So, what's the best output mode to the Radiance for DVDs?

If a DVD is encoded as 480p24 (or 576p25), then if the player can output at 480p24 (or 576p25), then that would be the best option. I don't know if any players will do this, and I am not sure the Radiance has even been tested with this input rate. Since the Radiance NoRing(TM) scaling is best, and there may be some inverse-telecine issues in the player, we do NOT recommend outputting DVDs at 1080p24 [EDIT] from the player.

So the best option is to either output to the Radiance as 480p60 (or 576p50) and have more judder, or output as 480i (or 576i) and let the Radiance deinterlace and pull out the cadence so it can then output as 24p (or 60p, or 25p, or 50p as appropriate) to your display/projector.

If you are sending the Radiance 24p material as 480i (or 25p material as 576i), you should select "FILM" mode for deinterlacing in the Radiance. The issue is that in some frames there is not enough contrast for the deinterlacer to be certain of the existence of a cadence and the GF9450 deinterlacer will immediately revert to video mode, which will not provide the best image quality for progressive source encoded as interlace. In FILM mode deinterlacing the Radiance can override the output of the GF9450 deinterlacer and instead use its own cadence history to keep the inverse-telecine to progressive conversion working properly, and so correctly reconstruct each frame.

Also, for 24p (or 25p) source sent to the Radiance as interlace, you may want to turn on Genlock. This will insure that no frames are dropped and no frames are doubled. For Film source at 24 or 25 fps this can be noticeable. NOTE: For cable/satellite "video" source material, we generally recommend Genlock be left off since it significantly increases the switching time between inputs or for input resolution changes.

Jim Peterson
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post #1103 of 1223 Old 04-02-2014, 12:29 AM
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Listen to the boss, guys. Setting the deinterlacing mode in the Radiance from AUTO to FILM completely fixed the problem I was having.

Jrp, upon reading your comments I realized deinterlacing in the Oppo is shut down (or changed back to Auto) in Source Direct and needs to be re-set to FILM in the mini. The moment I made the switch, the whole picture just snapped back into hi-def beauty and judder disappeared. REALLY amazing how we take this setting for granted and how much affect it can have on DVD picture quality.

BTW, I found your post on DVD so informative, I printed and attached it to my owners manual.
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post #1104 of 1223 Old 04-02-2014, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ View Post

Before you get too far: Lumagen recommends you set the output color space to YCbCr 4:2:2. I believe the reason is because this mode sends 10 bits per color vs only 8 bits for the others.

The reason most people recommend Source Direct for the Oppo (or any DVD/Blu-ray player) is because the Radiance video processing is second-to-none. But nobody here seems to understand the problems you are having with DVD, so if this is working for you, we're happy too. smile.gif

Scott, I took your recommendation and switched output to 4:2:2. I can't tell if it makes a difference in PQ, but if that's what Lumagen says to do, I'm definitely taking their advice from now on.
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post #1105 of 1223 Old 04-02-2014, 12:45 AM
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Jim and Scott beat me to it...that screen shot was the clue we needed to what was causing the motion issue you were seeing!

Glad it's all under control now

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post #1106 of 1223 Old 04-02-2014, 12:53 AM
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Silly question. How do I save a configuration after an Auto-Cal session? Not the report, but the actual settings in the Mini. I was expecting an on-screen message to save to one of the memories but nothing came up.
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post #1107 of 1223 Old 04-02-2014, 01:28 AM
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I believe all auto calibration programs (Chromapure, CalMan, Lightspace) will preform the save function for you.
When you make manual changes always follow with a Menu, Save, Save, Ok
The first menu screen of the Lumagen will alert you if there are unsaved changes to any settings.
Regards, Mike.
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post #1108 of 1223 Old 04-02-2014, 01:46 AM
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Thanks, Mike. I have ChromaPure with the Auto-Cal add-on. I took a reading yesterday and maybe I didn't notice the Lumagen alert at the end of the session. I'll take more readings to confirm, or does the Radiance have this information somewhere?
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post #1109 of 1223 Old 04-02-2014, 05:52 AM
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Chromapure definitely performs the save function automatically, that's what I use.
Manual changes will result in the "unsaved changes" alert.
Regards, Mike.
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post #1110 of 1223 Old 04-05-2014, 12:10 AM
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Mike, I asked Tom about this in the CP thread. To save a manual calibration you must press the save button on the manual control panel in ChromaPure. I don't remember if there's a similar save button in Auto-Cal mode, but it wouldn't hurt to see one to remove any doubt.
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