Official Lumagen RadianceMini 3D thread. - Page 41 - AVS Forum
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post #1201 of 1230 Old 06-23-2014, 01:40 AM
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Only the Oppo is hooked up to the Mini. Will make sure it's off. Thanks again.
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post #1202 of 1230 Old 06-24-2014, 02:11 AM
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Lumagen Radiance (XE/XE+/XE3D/XE/XE+/XE3D/Mini-3D/XD/XD3D) New 060914 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Fixes up a few bugs in some of the test patterns in the previous release. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

Download Link

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
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post #1203 of 1230 Old 06-24-2014, 01:41 PM
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^ lol, figures, I just did the previous upgrade a few days ago.
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post #1204 of 1230 Old 07-07-2014, 05:24 PM
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Ok, I call uncle. Recently repurchased a lumagen mini when I realized I couldn't live without one and I am excited about reinstalling it in my system.

This brings me to my first question. I been following to the letter the tech tip to create the fixed zoom method since I don't have my lens in place. I had been using the JVC lens zoom settings that I had initially set up.

When I go through all of the appropriate instructions, I get letter boxing on all four sides. I know it has to a simple fix, but after a long day at the office, I am at a loss. I say uncle .

Can someone walk be through what I am doing wrong?

Thanks for the help...feel like an idiot asking

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post #1205 of 1230 Old 07-07-2014, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboster View Post
When I go through all of the appropriate instructions, I get letter boxing on all four sides. I know it has to a simple fix, but after a long day at the office, I am at a loss. I say uncle .
What are you trying to accomplish? It sounds like you have a 2.35 screen with no a-lens and you're trying to avoid using lens memory? But the JVC has lens memory, so maybe I'm mistaken...
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post #1206 of 1230 Old 07-07-2014, 06:44 PM
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No Scott you are correct on all counts:

I have a scope/ 2.35 screen

I do not have my a-lens mounted right now

I have been using the jvc's lens memory and zooming out

I like the idea of using the lumagen for the fixed zoom method

Once I go through all the tech note instructions my image ends up with the window pane or letterboxing surrounding all sides of the scope image.

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post #1207 of 1230 Old 07-07-2014, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboster View Post
I have been using the jvc's lens memory and zooming out

I like the idea of using the lumagen for the fixed zoom method

Once I go through all the tech note instructions my image ends up with the window pane or letterboxing surrounding all sides of the scope image.
OK, so you realize that without zooming there will be resolution loss for 1.78 material, right?

With the "fixed zoom" method, if I understand it correctly, you zoom the PJ so the screen width is filled. Naturally this means that 1.78 material will spill off the top and bottom of the screen, which is where the Lumagen comes in. You set the Lumagen to scale the image down so it matches the height of the screen. It does this by adding black space on all 4 sides of the image until the black space at the top and bottom equals the overspill. Hence the final picture will match the height of the 2.35 screen, with empty screen on the sides.

For viewing a scope image, you have to switch the Lumagen so it doesn't scale anymore. Perhaps this is all you're missing? (Press the 2.35 button on the Lumagen remote.)
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post #1208 of 1230 Old 07-08-2014, 01:39 AM
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Yes, if you've followed the guide exactly it will work. Press 2.35:1 aspect to fill screen, press 16:9 to get correct aspect inside a 2.35:1 screen with black bars at sides...this all presumes you have actually zoomed the image to fill the width of your screen before you started but I think that is detailed in the guide already.

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post #1209 of 1230 Old 07-08-2014, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post
Yes, if you've followed the guide exactly it will work. Press 2.35:1 aspect to fill screen, press 16:9 to get correct aspect inside a 2.35:1 screen with black bars at sides...this all presumes you have actually zoomed the image to fill the width of your screen before you started but I think that is detailed in the guide already.
That was the key that was missing. After typing my second post last night, it occurred to me to set my projector lens to my "scope" setting, which then created the proper settings using the lumagen.

To be honest, I hadn't thought through the resolution loss on the 1.78 material. Sounds like I need to set up two different inputs one for scope and 16x9 NLS material and a second for 1.78/1.85 material.

Thanks to Scott and Gordon for their input...much appreciated.

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post #1210 of 1230 Old 07-08-2014, 06:07 PM
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Question Lumagen owners -

If I go with a constant image area screen ratio of around 2.05 or so, and I wish to retain pixel perfect proportions, the Lumagen will allow for that with no resolution loss correct ? I want to set the zoom and focus once basically with minimum black bars and no stretching if possible.

If so, would I zoom a scope 2.35 film on my (non lens memory) Sony ES 55 to the full width of the screen and then have the Lumagen letterbox the overspill for 1.85 films or would you do the reverse (and zoom a 1.85 film instead).

I want a 2.05 screen or so to maximize the viewable area for both scope and flat ratio films... is why I ask..

For such a pricey scaler I want to try to make sure that it can do what I am hoping it can do...

Thanks again in advance -

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post #1211 of 1230 Old 07-08-2014, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueskies758 View Post
If I go with a constant image area screen ratio of around 2.05 or so, and I wish to retain pixel perfect proportions, the Lumagen will allow for that with no resolution loss correct ? I want to set the zoom and focus once basically with minimum black bars and no stretching if possible.
What you are asking to do is not possible. You can either:

1) Display a pixel-by-pixel image with no resolution loss from the source.

or

2) Set the zoom and focus once and scale everything to fit within the projected area.

You cannot do both. The two things contradict one another. You need to decide which is more important to you.

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post #1212 of 1230 Old 07-08-2014, 07:25 PM
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Josh -

Thanks for the reply - I thought the Lumagen could act as a zooming device (duplicate lens memory) ?

Maybe I don't grasp the definition of pixel perfect - if I gather what you're saying is that by zooming the picture its no longer pixel perfect?

I had read the Lumagen was capable of custom aspect ratios and thought this was within its feature set.

Thanks -

Kevin D
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post #1213 of 1230 Old 07-08-2014, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueskies758 View Post
Thanks for the reply - I thought the Lumagen could act as a zooming device (duplicate lens memory) ?

Maybe I don't grasp the definition of pixel perfect - if I gather what you're saying is that by zooming the picture its no longer pixel perfect?
What you are asking for is not possible. It is not a limitation of the Lumagen. The projector has a native resolution of 1920x1080 pixels. Both 1.85 and 2.35 movies are 1920 pixels wide. If you want these two aspect ratios to be different widths on the screen, you need to either (1) optically zoom, or (2) electronically scale to fewer than 1920 pixels.

The Lumagen scaler is very flexible and high quality, but any scaling means that it's not "pixel perfect" any more. (Whether the quality loss will be noticeable is a different question. It will certainly be noticeable on test patterns, but likely it will not be noticeable on real program material.)
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post #1214 of 1230 Old 07-08-2014, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueskies758 View Post
Question Lumagen owners -

If I go with a constant image area screen ratio of around 2.05 or so, and I wish to retain pixel perfect proportions, the Lumagen will allow for that with no resolution loss correct ? I want to set the zoom and focus once basically with minimum black bars and no stretching if possible.
Wait...maybe you are asking for something else. Do you want to mask off the top & bottom of a 1.85 movie to fit it into a 2.05 screen? The Lumagen can do that, too, and it stays pixel-perfect, but of course you crop the movie.

My previous response assumed you wanted to see the entire 1.85 image.
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post #1215 of 1230 Old 07-08-2014, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ View Post
Wait...maybe you are asking for something else. Do you want to mask off the top & bottom of a 1.85 movie to fit it into a 2.05 screen? The Lumagen can do that, too, and it stays pixel-perfect, but of course you crop the movie.

My previous response assumed you wanted to see the entire 1.85 image.
Sorry If I was unclear -

Yes Scott my wish was to see the entire 1.85 image through the Lumagen as though I had climbed up on the projector and zoomed and refocused the image from a 2.35 film. Basically trying to use the Lumagen as lens memory. I realize there would be slight black bars on the left and right of a full 1.85 film on a 2.05 screen, and some slight top/bottom bars on a scope film.

If there were some slight black bars that would be preferable to me, although I've not seen the non linear scaling in person
so maybe it would be fine for me in the end.

Thank you for setting me straight on scaling as it pertains to the pixel perfect definition.

Man why didnt Sony just make these projectors with motorized zoom
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post #1216 of 1230 Old 07-09-2014, 01:34 AM
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Blueskies758:

Yes, the Lumagen will allow you to have a 2.xx:1 screen where you can press a button and the 16:9 or 4:3 or 1.85:1 content will be displayed in the correct proportions in the middle of your screen with black bars at the side.

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post #1217 of 1230 Old 07-09-2014, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueskies758 View Post
Thanks for the reply - I thought the Lumagen could act as a zooming device (duplicate lens memory) ?

Maybe I don't grasp the definition of pixel perfect - if I gather what you're saying is that by zooming the picture its no longer pixel perfect?

I had read the Lumagen was capable of custom aspect ratios and thought this was within its feature set.
I think you are misunderstanding the definition of "zoom."

Your projector has a 1920x1080 pixel panel. No external device can change that. When you turn on your projector, it natively displays 1920x1080 pixels at a 16:9 aspect ratio. You can adjust the optical zoom lens to spread those 1920x1080 pixels over a larger area (bigger pixels, more space between them) or condense them to a smaller area.

If you add an anamorphic lens in front of the projector, it will stretch the pixels horizontally into a 2.35:1 shape. Still the same number of pixels, but now stretched. Without correction, your picture geometry will look very bad.



To fix that, you need to electronically stretch the image vertically, which will crop off the letterbox bars and restore proper picture geometry in the center.



You wouldn't necessarily need a Lumagen processor for this. Many home theater projectors come with a v-stretch feature built-in.

I understand that you don't want to use an anamorphic lens. You want to install a 2.0:1 screen and mask for each aspect ratio separately. The best way to do this is to adjust your zoom to make the picture larger for 2.35:1 movies and smaller for 1.85:1 movies. This way, you will use the projector's entire 1920x1080 pixel panel for both, each mapped 1-to-1 to the pixels in the source without scaling.

If you don't want to go through the hassle of zooming for every movie, you can set the projector to fill the width of the screen. Because the projector's aspect ratio is 16:9, some of the light will spill off the top and bottom of the 2.0:1 screen. This will not be a problem with 2.35:1 movies, because the overspill will just contain some portion of the letterbox bars. However, it's definitely a problem for 1.85:1 movies or 16:9 TV shows, which will spill real picture information off the edges of the screen.

In this scenario, you need a Lumagen processor to electronically scale the image down to occupy a smaller portion of the pixel panel (1707x960) with black bars on all sides. Now only the black bars spill off the screen. However, in doing so, you throw out image resolution that's present in the source, leading to a less detailed picture. You also sacrifice brightness, because you're wasting light from the projector on the black bars when it could be used in the real picture.

Whether the loss of resolution is worth the trade-off for the convenience of switching aspect ratios with a button push and no zooming is a personal decision you'll have to make for yourself. Depending on your standards, and the quality of the content you watch, the difference in resolution may or may not be noticeable. In most likelihood, it probably won't be too distracting. But if your goal is to get the best picture quality possible, optically zooming is better.

Zooming is also much cheaper, in that you don't need an external video processor.
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post #1218 of 1230 Old 07-09-2014, 11:57 AM
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Josh: Excellent breakdown on a-lens, zooming and using a lumagen for aspect ratio control. I'll be heading back to my a-lens, once I come up with a mounting solution vs buying prismasonic's mount package.

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post #1219 of 1230 Old 07-09-2014, 03:22 PM
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Josh -

Ditto on the awesome post explaining what I am shooting for.

The more I think about it I will probably get the projector and lumagen first and then play around with the ratios before committing to a screen. I can see how the non linear scaling looks to me, and whether the flat ratio films are detailed enough for me. I suspect they will be. Also compare the letterboxed mode(s).

I am sold on the Sonys picture ; otherwise I would do the JVC, but since I game online the lag rules that out for me.

Thanks once again all - very educational thread here
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post #1220 of 1230 Old 07-09-2014, 05:49 PM
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Blueskies, I have a 2.0 screen (144x72) and as you describe, for 16x9 pics I zoom to fill the height (and have back bars on the sides), and for 2.35 I zoom to fill the width, and have a black bar at the top (since I lens shift the pic to line up with the bottom of the screen). This is with a Sony 1100, which has lens memory, so switching between the two configurations is one click. It is very simple and efficient, so I recommend simply doing this.

I also have a Lumagen Mini, but use it only for the Autocal feature with ChromaPure. If it weren't for this, I would dispense with it.
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post #1221 of 1230 Old 07-10-2014, 03:39 PM
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Thanks Miller -

Have to stick with a non lens memory Sony for now so Im stuck looking at the Lumagen route Im afraid.

Cheers -

Kevin D
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post #1222 of 1230 Old 07-11-2014, 03:38 AM
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Lumagen Radiance (XE/XE+/XE3D/XE/XE+/XE3D/Mini-3D/XD/XD3D) New 070114 Firmware Update

Release Notes

A couple of APL test pattern fixups.

Speeds up test patterns. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

Download Link

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueskies758 View Post
Man why didnt Sony just make these projectors with motorized zoom
They did, but called it 95ES. AVS sometimes still has B-stock units

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post #1224 of 1230 Old 07-14-2014, 05:25 PM
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Lumagen Radiance (XE/XE+/XE3D/XE/XE+/XE3D/Mini-3D/XD/XD3D) New 070314 Firmware Update


Release Notes


Fix for issue with rs232 test pattern usage that would often give a corrupted picture. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)


Download Link

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
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Lumagen Radiance (XE/XE+/XE3D/XE/XE+/XE3D/Mini-3D/XD/XD3D) New 070414 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Another rs232 test pattern problem fixed.

An issue with screen being blank fixed.

Problem with using left arrow on remote for aspect changes fixed. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

Download Link

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
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post #1226 of 1230 Old 07-16-2014, 11:23 PM
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Lumagen Radiance (XE/XE+/XE3D/XE/XE+/XE3D/Mini-3D/XD/XD3D) New 070514 Firmware Update

Release Notes

One more fix for an issue with rs232 test pattern usage via calibration software. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

Download Link

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
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post #1227 of 1230 Old 07-17-2014, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by xtrips

Hello,

This is a short list of unsaid things in the manual that are worth asking this forum:

1) Is the Darbee still relevant when you get a Mini 3D?
2) If it is then what is recommended? to hook it before the Mini 3D or after the Mini 3D towards the projector?
3) The manual recommends to set the projector/display at its default best, and just disable all the processing such as NR, Contrast enhancement etc....
But isn't it preferable, if you have the option of course, to perfectly calibrate the projector/display, to the extent of its possibilities, and only then use the Mini 3D to fine tune?

Thanks


1) Yes, the Darbee DVP(TM) enhancement is different than the internal Lumagen enhancements and they can be used together. The Mini does not have an internal Darbee function, so it makes sense to have an external Darbee along with the RadianceMini.

2) We have found that the Darbee works best at the source resolution. This is where we have it placed when internal to the Radiance units (20XX, 21XX units). However, it may be more practical to have it after the RadianceMini unit. It also works well at the output resolution.

3) This is subject to debate. My recommendation is that the display/projector be close, but not fully calibrated. The issue with all the TV/Projector CMS systems I know of is that they are using the wrong color space, which is typically HSL. HSL is a non-linear color space and applying "correction" to primary and secondary points can actually make other points in the color space worse. The Radiance uses the correct Linear-Gamma RGB color space for its 3D LUT and so provides excellent accuracy. Some professional calibrators use the projector's 10-point for grayscale calibration, and this can work well, but we recommend choosing a reasonable color mode in the display/projector (that is primary and secondary point at or slightly outside the spec), and allowing the Radiance to do the CMS calibration. As a final note, one does not want the display/projector to be too far out of spec before calibrating with the Radiance. So making sure the display/projector is reasonably close is a good idea, even if it means using some of its internal calibrations, and then using the Radiance to dial everything in as you have suggested.


I am getting ready to install a mini and I also have a darbee. My question is I also have a Marantz preamp. where in this chain of 3 plus the projector should I install. Should it be Projector>>>darbe>>mini>>Marantz?...

Don Lynch
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post #1228 of 1230 Old 07-18-2014, 12:48 AM
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I am getting ready to install a mini and I also have a darbee. My question is I also have a Marantz preamp. where in this chain of 3 plus the projector should I install. Should it be Projector>>>darbe>>mini>>Marantz?...
I believe you have got the order as per Darbee/Lumagen recommendations. Indeed with the newer Lumagens that incorporate Darbee, the internal processing also proceeds in the same order. Looks like you're good to go.
Wait a minute, just noticed you are showing the connections backwards, PJ to AVR.
You should have:-
Marantz>>>Darbee>>>Mini>>>Projector.
This allows the PJ to be calibrated with the Mini, and the Mini will preserve any changes to the signal made by the Darbee.
Regards, Mike.
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post #1229 of 1230 Old 07-18-2014, 11:41 PM
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Lumagen Radiance (XE/XE+/XE3D/XE/XE+/XE3D/Mini-3D/XD/XD3D) New 070714 Firmware Update

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Found 2 other issues with rs232 test pattern usage via calibration software. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

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Lumagen Radiance (XE/XE+/XE3D/XE/XE+/XE3D/Mini-3D/XD/XD3D) New 070814 Firmware Update

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A fix for exiting test patterns when using vertical shift (bottom of screen left uncleared). (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

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