Official Lumagen RadianceMini 3D thread. - Page 46 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1351 of 1369 Old 01-30-2015, 04:11 AM
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Lumagen Radiance (XE/XE+/XE3D/XE/XE+/XE3D/Mini-3D/XD/XD3D) New 012515 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Fix for loss of video issues with chromebox and other HTPC type sources. Fix for constant height setup with certain 3D formats and scale bias off causing incorrect picture. Fix for test patterns with side-by-side or top-bottom 3D output. Expanded size limits for rs232 "ZY2" command to match onscreen menu limits. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

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Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #1352 of 1369 Old 02-10-2015, 04:48 AM
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Guys, I m looking for a pretty uncommon CMS solution which the RadianceMini 3D might be the only possible solution available out there IF it will work anyway. Let me try to explain.


I own a Passive Dual 3D projector setup by Infitec (http://www.infitec.net/index.php/en/). The system consists of 2 Epson TW9200 projectors with both projectors containing a Infitec filter; one for the RIGHT eye and one for the LEFT eye. The projectors are controlled by a Infitec splitter (http://www.amazon.de/INFITEC-HDMI-1-.../dp/B00OFWRJPS) which has one HDMI input and 2x HDMI out (1x for LEFT projector and 1x for RIGHT projector). The problem is that it is simply undoable to get a good calibration with this setup because both projectors have it s own influence on the outcome. You cannot simply calibrate the projectors separately with a end result that is good. This can t be done because both projectors in theory should cancel out the differences they both have. In practice however the colors are just too much off. I can get the 75% color saturation ok but then the 100, 50 and 25% are WAY off for some colors. And I m talking about delta values of 15-25 here!


So....... here is a flow chart how my chain runs. What I need to know is if this will work or if I have to put the Lumagen AFTER the Infitec 3D Splitter. If this is the case, then I would theoretically need TWO lumagen mini's! But maybe it will just work fine if I put the Lumagen Mini 3D BEFORE the Infitec splitter. What is important to know: The infitec splitter has an internal color correction system where Blue, Green and Red can be adjusted. By default all three are on a 100 value but because the Infitec system causes a way too Greenish tint I do have to tune down the green value to approx 70. So this means that AFTER the Lumagen Mini 3D a green correction will be made! My thought was that if I put a Lumagen Mini 3D in my setup placed before the splitter, I could adjust the green in the first place and only AFTER that let the Mini 3D do it s job (I own Chromapure so I could buy the Lumagen add-on for CP).


Hope you guys can advise me and hope you understand what I m asking


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post #1353 of 1369 Old 02-10-2015, 05:55 AM
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It seems the Infitec is a color band pass solution, so by design it is doing something differently to the color being passed through each projector. Unless someone else here has this solution, or one similar, it will be hard for anyone to answer what you should do since its impact on the approach is not comepletely known.

But firstly, if its this bad, what does Infitec say? Maybe there is something wrong with your setup that needs to be fixed first.

Secondly, does it matter what color modes you run on the projector? I understand this is a high light loss solution, so are they running in some vivid-esque mode to maximize brightness at the sake of color accuracy? Can you try a matching pre-calibrated/cinema mode in each projector? Even if dark, do the colors look better?

Finally, Epsons usually have some decent gamma and CMS controls built in. Does the Infitec solution preclude calibrating each projector, and would it even matter if the color shift is being introduced in the splitter or filters? Does the filter get removed for 2d? Perhaps it is impossible to color correct with the filter unless they have a target they are trying to achieve that you could somehow calibrate to for each projector. At the colors equally poor after their splitter, or differingly poor?

What is Infitec's guidance on the splitter's RGB controls?

This sounds like something Infitec should address if the end result of their solution is poor...

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post #1354 of 1369 Old 02-11-2015, 07:23 AM
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Thanks for your very decent attempt to help me out on this. You are indeed right I am looking for some hands-on experience with the system. But someone who really knows how to calibrate the setup. I have been to Amsterdam to the ISE this morning and there I spoke with 3 guys from Infitec. Of course they where not the technical guys over there but commercial persons. They had really no clue what to do with my questions.


I bought the system from a dealer who had the intention to start selling the system in the Netherlands but as it turned out there is little interest for this niche product. Why did I bought the system you might ask? Well, for a 3D enteusiast like me there is simply no better solution for 3D at home then the Infitec system. If you have never been able to see the system in practise one has really not a single idea what you are missing. It is simply stunning 3D. I have had a lot 3D projectors including the SIM2 3D-S but the Infitec system just leaves them all far behind. The completely flicker- and ghostfree picture due to the Dolby 3D technique that Infitec uses gives you an incredibly ultra good 3D experience. So far about me bragging about how great the system is


The filters are BUILD-IN both Epson TW9200 projectors. When switching to CINEMA mode the original Epsons filter which is used for Cinema Mode is replaced by the Infitec filters. Switching back to Living Room mode is for watching 2D on one of the two TW9200 (I switch watching 2D from time to time so both projectors have approx the same hours on the lamp so I don t get too much light output deviations).


You have to understand that the Infitec system tries to 'compensate' the color errors from the left and right projector (so the left and right eye). By trying to get both projectors calibrated separately you will just loose more light then needed AND still don t end up with a good result.
So somehow I do need to find out how to make this all work but hey, where do I start my investigation.......

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post #1355 of 1369 Old 02-11-2015, 11:02 AM
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sanderdvd:
First let me say I am not an expert on the Infitec system. So while I think the following is correct I might not have a handle on all aspects of the Infitec calibration.

The Infitec splitter, in conjunction with the Infitec color filters in the projectors, assuming it is like Dolby, splits the left and right images by doing color filtering so that when wearing the glasses the left eye sees one set of three bands, and the right eye sees a different set of three bands of color. The brain is very good at merging these into a single 3D image.

Because of this you need to calibrate each projector without the Infitec splitter in the loop, and the special filter in the Projector out of the light path (I am assuming the Infitec filter in the projector is optical).

Both projectors should be calibrated accurately WITHOUT the Infinitec splitter, or Infitec color filter. To do this I recommend at least a pair of Radiance 2020 (9x9x9 3D LUT) units, and you might even spring for a pair of Radiance 2123 (17x17x17 3D LUT), making sure the light output for white is as nearly the same in the two projectors as possible, and of course the black level, Gamma, Grayscale and 3D LUT are calibrated as accurately as possible.

For normal use the Radiance would go after the Infitec splitter in front of each projector. So for calibration you would only need to make sure the color filter in teh projectors is out of the light path.

This approach should give you a very accurate colorimetry for both 2D and 3D.

Jim Peterson
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post #1356 of 1369 Old 02-12-2015, 08:56 AM
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xvYCC is on our list to consider for the 21XX units. We will also consider it for the 20XX units, but there is less room, and it may or may not fit in the 20XX series FPGA. The xvYCC will not be implemented in the older Radiance units (Mini, XS, XD, XE) since their FPGA's are completely full.
Jim,
Is this still in consideration for the 2020? I am looking for a reason to upgrade

Stefan

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post #1357 of 1369 Old 02-12-2015, 09:09 AM
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I just wanted to mention Amazon has the Mini 3D for $1249 but there are only 3 left....

Amazon Link
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post #1358 of 1369 Old 02-12-2015, 08:57 PM
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Jim,
Is this still in consideration for the 2020? I am looking for a reason to upgrade

Stefan
Still considering xvYCC for 21XX and potentially 20XX, but we are not working on this currently.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
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post #1359 of 1369 Old 02-12-2015, 10:49 PM
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Still considering xvYCC for 21XX and potentially 20XX, but we are not working on this currently.
Hi Jim - glad to hear you are considering this. I am very interested in seeing xvYCC implemented. Thank you.
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post #1360 of 1369 Old 02-13-2015, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
sanderdvd:
First let me say I am not an expert on the Infitec system. So while I think the following is correct I might not have a handle on all aspects of the Infitec calibration.

The Infitec splitter, in conjunction with the Infitec color filters in the projectors, assuming it is like Dolby, splits the left and right images by doing color filtering so that when wearing the glasses the left eye sees one set of three bands, and the right eye sees a different set of three bands of color. The brain is very good at merging these into a single 3D image.

Because of this you need to calibrate each projector without the Infitec splitter in the loop, and the special filter in the Projector out of the light path (I am assuming the Infitec filter in the projector is optical).

Both projectors should be calibrated accurately WITHOUT the Infinitec splitter, or Infitec color filter. To do this I recommend at least a pair of Radiance 2020 (9x9x9 3D LUT) units, and you might even spring for a pair of Radiance 2123 (17x17x17 3D LUT), making sure the light output for white is as nearly the same in the two projectors as possible, and of course the black level, Gamma, Grayscale and 3D LUT are calibrated as accurately as possible.

For normal use the Radiance would go after the Infitec splitter in front of each projector. So for calibration you would only need to make sure the color filter in teh projectors is out of the light path.

This approach should give you a very accurate colorimetry for both 2D and 3D.
thanks for your reply but this will simply not work at all. The Infitec filters (which are hardware build-in so removing them is not possible anyway ) have a very big impact on both the Greyscale and Colors. Even if I COULD calibrate it without the filters it will make no sense to do this. The filters will just completely whipe out the calibration that you did. There is one thing I m 300% sure about: the calibration needs to be done WITH the filters......


Thanks for your intput anyway.

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post #1361 of 1369 Old 02-13-2015, 09:17 AM
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I just wanted to mention Amazon has the Mini 3D for $1249 but there are only 3 left....

Amazon Link
I got one of those. I can't wait til it gets here. I'm going to use auto cal with Colman.
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post #1362 of 1369 Old 02-13-2015, 10:12 AM
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thanks for your reply but this will simply not work at all. The Infitec filters (which are hardware build-in so removing them is not possible anyway ) have a very big impact on both the Greyscale and Colors. Even if I COULD calibrate it without the filters it will make no sense to do this. The filters will just completely whipe out the calibration that you did. There is one thing I m 300% sure about: the calibration needs to be done WITH the filters......

Thanks for your intput anyway.
Sanderdvd - jrp is likely correct in what he is saying. You're only going to be able to calibrate succesfully in 2D mode to something like REC.709 without the filters in place.

You mention that your projector inserts the Infitec filter when you go to Cinema Mode, and removes it when using Living Room mode. With the filters in place (Cinema Mode) your color output is dramatically changed, which is part of the design of the Infitec system itself. It's similar to the Omega system which removes large areas of color energy\bands for each eye.

I've attempted what you're trying to do - getting a calibrated output with filters (Omega) in place to get a 'proper' color aligned output for each eye. This experiment failed as there is no way to magically add back in the energy\bands that were removed by the filters. You can increase your RGB levels all you want at specific points but it won't even come close to adding back in what's been removed.

Now in theory what could and should happen with these color systems is that there is a 'black box' in between your video source and dual projector output that can be calibrated and aligned to the specific projector\light output\screen combination to get you great color matching output. To my knowledge though this specific type of calibrated correction doesn't exist outside of the digital cinema world.

Considering this is an Infitec 'system' you've purchased, I'd do what thrang suggests and talk to Infitec about what can be done. If Infitec had a specific left\right 3D calibration target then maybe you could use that to address each eye, but I'd guess this is part of their IP and probably not publicly available.
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post #1363 of 1369 Old 02-14-2015, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by wanderer View Post
Sanderdvd - jrp is likely correct in what he is saying. You're only going to be able to calibrate succesfully in 2D mode to something like REC.709 without the filters in place.

You mention that your projector inserts the Infitec filter when you go to Cinema Mode, and removes it when using Living Room mode. With the filters in place (Cinema Mode) your color output is dramatically changed, which is part of the design of the Infitec system itself. It's similar to the Omega system which removes large areas of color energy\bands for each eye.

I've attempted what you're trying to do - getting a calibrated output with filters (Omega) in place to get a 'proper' color aligned output for each eye. This experiment failed as there is no way to magically add back in the energy\bands that were removed by the filters. You can increase your RGB levels all you want at specific points but it won't even come close to adding back in what's been removed.

Now in theory what could and should happen with these color systems is that there is a 'black box' in between your video source and dual projector output that can be calibrated and aligned to the specific projector\light output\screen combination to get you great color matching output. To my knowledge though this specific type of calibrated correction doesn't exist outside of the digital cinema world.

Considering this is an Infitec 'system' you've purchased, I'd do what thrang suggests and talk to Infitec about what can be done. If Infitec had a specific left\right 3D calibration target then maybe you could use that to address each eye, but I'd guess this is part of their IP and probably not publicly available.
thanks for your extensive reply Wanderer.
jrp is not correct in his statement. I m not talking about the greyscale (RGB) adjustments here but about the color accuracy (CMS). The filters affect the colors in a very big way. You can get pretty good delta values at eg. 75% (which is the preffered color saturation to get delta values under approx. 3) but this will cause 25,50 and 100% saturation completely off. I ve tried to look for a comprimise as good as possible but I m not satisfied with the result up to this point. As you can see below the greyscale is good enough (knowing that you cannot ever get it as straight as with a simple 2D single projector calibration without filters), but the colors are just too much off.







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post #1364 of 1369 Old 02-14-2015, 07:36 PM
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I need some help with 3D output.. Up until now I have been solely using my Mini3D with my Projector (Panasonic AE8000) with 2D sources and not bothered with 3D. However I'd like to view Gravity in 3D, and some other 3D movies I have acquired.

Initialy my Bluray player Oppo BDP-93 would not detect my setup is capable of 3D and would display the warning message.
After adjusting some settings on my Mini3D, i.e. setting most things to AUTO.

That worked however I get intermittent issues, i.e. I use the 2nd HDMI output from my Oppo direct to the Mini3D bypassing my AVR. I get no sound, even tho the Oppo is connected to my AVR with the first HDMI output from my Oppo.

If I use the first HDMI output via the AVR, I get a white screen on the projector. Sometime the Mini3D would even lockup i.e. it wouldn't respond to remote presses.

Also a question, when playing a 3D source why can I not see the Mini3D menus, pressing Menu on the remote shows nothing onscreen (via projector) yet the movie will continue to play. Even pressing OK to show the info screen does not display. Is there a setting for this?

Does this indicate an issue with my Mini3D?

thanks
Jai
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post #1365 of 1369 Old 02-15-2015, 03:38 AM
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I need some help with 3D output.. Up until now I have been solely using my Mini3D with my Projector (Panasonic AE8000) with 2D sources and not bothered with 3D. However I'd like to view Gravity in 3D, and some other 3D movies I have acquired.

Initialy my Bluray player Oppo BDP-93 would not detect my setup is capable of 3D and would display the warning message.
After adjusting some settings on my Mini3D, i.e. setting most things to AUTO.

That worked however I get intermittent issues, i.e. I use the 2nd HDMI output from my Oppo direct to the Mini3D bypassing my AVR. I get no sound, even tho the Oppo is connected to my AVR with the first HDMI output from my Oppo.

If I use the first HDMI output via the AVR, I get a white screen on the projector. Sometime the Mini3D would even lockup i.e. it wouldn't respond to remote presses.

Also a question, when playing a 3D source why can I not see the Mini3D menus, pressing Menu on the remote shows nothing onscreen (via projector) yet the movie will continue to play. Even pressing OK to show the info screen does not display. Is there a setting for this?

Does this indicate an issue with my Mini3D?

thanks
Jai
You should get the OSD on your screen when you press OK. If you do not it is likely that the ir signal is being locked by the ir emitter for the 3D glasses on your projector spraying ir throughout the room (presuming they are ir and not rf). you can check that by covering the ir receiever with your hand and putting the remote right up against the scaler. If the OSD comes on then you know where the problem lies.

On the other questions this is most likely due to settings in the scaler and Oppo. I do not have an Oppo so can't advise on possible settings you need to change
Also, if you have short hdmi cables swap them out for ones that are at least 2m long.

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post #1366 of 1369 Old 02-15-2015, 06:47 PM
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thanks for your extensive reply Wanderer.
jrp is not correct in his statement. I m not talking about the greyscale (RGB) adjustments here but about the color accuracy (CMS). The filters affect the colors in a very big way. You can get pretty good delta values at eg. 75% (which is the preffered color saturation to get delta values under approx. 3) but this will cause 25,50 and 100% saturation completely off. I ve tried to look for a comprimise as good as possible but I m not satisfied with the result up to this point. As you can see below the greyscale is good enough (knowing that you cannot ever get it as straight as with a simple 2D single projector calibration without filters), but the colors are just too much off.







I respectfully disagree with you and feel that JRP is correct. Look at it this way: if your system works to provide 3D by filtering out certain wavelengths of light, wouldn't correcting the display's color output via CMS (if you could) restore those filtered frequencies and reduce or eliminate the 3D effect?
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post #1367 of 1369 Old 02-15-2015, 11:40 PM
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thanks for your extensive reply Wanderer.
jrp is not correct in his statement. I m not talking about the greyscale (RGB) adjustments here but about the color accuracy (CMS). The filters affect the colors in a very big way. You can get pretty good delta values at eg. 75% (which is the preffered color saturation to get delta values under approx. 3) but this will cause 25,50 and 100% saturation completely off. I ve tried to look for a comprimise as good as possible but I m not satisfied with the result up to this point. As you can see below the greyscale is good enough (knowing that you cannot ever get it as straight as with a simple 2D single projector calibration without filters), but the colors are just too much off.
Thanks for posting the Chromapure measurement information. Were these measurements taken from behind the glasses as well? What you've posted is exactly what I expected to see - gamma is all messed up (2.74 at 50%) and green and blue are all over the place in the CMS measurements.

The CMS in your projector is likely the standard 6 point one where you get to set a specific point for each color and that's it. It's the same type as in my Panasonic projectors and most other CMS consumer displays. The Mini3D can help here in introducing 125 points of CMS and other Lumagen models offer more than that. The question is though - can these extra points in an external CMS get you a decent REC.709 output with the color altering glasses and filters in place?

In my testing with the Omega filters, glasses and Mini3D the answer to this was a no. The linearity is taken so far out of spec - relative to REC.709 which is what you are calibrating to - that it can't be corrected with the range of correction the external CMS has.

I know with the Dolby cinema box that it's supposed to be doing color correcting before the signal reaches the projectors. Presumably there is a nice workflow as well from Dolby on how to calibrate each projector to get good results. That Infitec splitter looks like a regular GeoBox to me. Have you measured your projectors output with the infitec splitter installed\removed from the chain to see if it's even doing anything to alter the video signal? It might just be splitting the HDMI output to left\right like a normal GeoBox and the only color altering might be at the filters themselves!
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post #1368 of 1369 Old Today, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by wanderer View Post
Thanks for posting the Chromapure measurement information. Were these measurements taken from behind the glasses as well? What you've posted is exactly what I expected to see - gamma is all messed up (2.74 at 50%) and green and blue are all over the place in the CMS measurements.

The CMS in your projector is likely the standard 6 point one where you get to set a specific point for each color and that's it. It's the same type as in my Panasonic projectors and most other CMS consumer displays. The Mini3D can help here in introducing 125 points of CMS and other Lumagen models offer more than that. The question is though - can these extra points in an external CMS get you a decent REC.709 output with the color altering glasses and filters in place?

In my testing with the Omega filters, glasses and Mini3D the answer to this was a no. The linearity is taken so far out of spec - relative to REC.709 which is what you are calibrating to - that it can't be corrected with the range of correction the external CMS has.

I know with the Dolby cinema box that it's supposed to be doing color correcting before the signal reaches the projectors. Presumably there is a nice workflow as well from Dolby on how to calibrate each projector to get good results. That Infitec splitter looks like a regular GeoBox to me. Have you measured your projectors output with the infitec splitter installed\removed from the chain to see if it's even doing anything to alter the video signal? It might just be splitting the HDMI output to left\right like a normal GeoBox and the only color altering might be at the filters themselves!
The measurements where taken without the glasses because with the glasses I will get too inaccurate dark readings because of the reduced light. But it makes no difference to measure with or without the glasses. The filters in the glasses are exactly the same as in the projectors. The Infitec splitter is only for splitting the signal like you say. It has a color correction option but it is very basic (Blue, Red and Green can be altered from 0-100 with default all on value 100. Infitec told me to just leave them all on 100).


Can you tell me more about the Dolby color correction box? Is it available for sale and what does it actually do?
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Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
The measurements where taken without the glasses because with the glasses I will get too inaccurate dark readings because of the reduced light. But it makes no difference to measure with or without the glasses. The filters in the glasses are exactly the same as in the projectors. The Infitec splitter is only for splitting the signal like you say. It has a color correction option but it is very basic (Blue, Red and Green can be altered from 0-100 with default all on value 100. Infitec told me to just leave them all on 100).

Can you tell me more about the Dolby color correction box? Is it available for sale and what does it actually do?
The Dolby box is a digital cinema piece of equipment that allows you to measure and calibrate each eye individually to a specific standard. Anything digital cinema related costs thousands of dollars so this would be no different. The measurement process seems to be reading Red, Blue, Green, White and light levels for each eye, then it creates an intenal LUT of some type and corrects the output for each eye from that point.

References for this:
Discussion on calibrating - http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f16/t000875.html
Dolby 3D calibration procedure - http://www.doremilabs.com/downloads/...03520_v1_0.pdf
Dolby 3D calibrating for RealD - http://www.reald.com/Files/Downloads...emaServers.pdf

We don't really know what's going on behind the scenes here in software that's creating that Dolby specific LUT. It's taking some simple measurements, but what is it calibrating it to? It sure won't be REC.709 which is what you're targeting. For the Mini3D it might indeed be able to do a 3D LUT and sort out the colors, but the calibration software is the key here in being able to know what reference you're trying to calibrate to.

Some of this work was looked at before here on AVS although what was achieved might not be the perfect left\right output you were looking for:
Dolby Digital 3D Guide...
DIY DOLBY 1080p 3D, Color correction not really needed...
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