Official Lumagen RadianceMini 3D thread. - Page 47 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1381 of 1403 Old 04-15-2015, 05:45 PM
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Interesting… seems like the problem you see is the polar opposite of what I see. I do think I may have figured out why I have the problem them… and it has nothing to do with neither of the two video processors… My HDMI cables are all redmere cables and those are directional. When I place the Darbee after the Mini 3D, I would need to change the direction of the cable and I didn't… going to check tomorrow if it may have been that simple.

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post #1382 of 1403 Old 04-21-2015, 01:05 AM
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Just got a Radiance Mini-3D and am really delighted with the results. However I am curious about what settings are really correct for my setup, which consists of a Oppo 95 bdplayer and a Sony VW-95ES projector.

Player: Set to Source Direct and HDMI YCbCr 422. I am unsure as what to set the bit depth and dithering to? If I set it to OFF, will the Lumagen do the dithering and bit depth processing?

Projector: Set to "Full" aspect ratio. No further settings need to be applied for it to recieve the Lumagen signal without altering it?

Last edited by Drem; 04-21-2015 at 01:09 AM.
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post #1383 of 1403 Old 04-21-2015, 01:40 PM
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Drem:

Sounds like the Oppo is set up correctly.

For the Radiance select 4:2:2 output mode. This outputs 12-bits and the "Auto" dither setting (the default) is to not dither. For 4:2:2 output mode you wold only select dither to a lower bit depth than 12 if the TV/projector as a precision issue.

One example is a digital display with 60 Hertz refresh that shows some banding in dark areas. In this case dither to a lower bit depth may well mitigate the display's issues to some degree.

Generally I find that TVs built in the last couple year show less banding than earlier models. Still many digital displays have issue still. Many default to a lower Gamma setting (e.g. 1.8 rather than 2.2) to hide noise issues near black. So there are still issues in digital displays that you might need to consider when you calibrate, and when you select a dither setting.
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post #1384 of 1403 Old 04-22-2015, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Drem:

Sounds like the Oppo is set up correctly.

For the Radiance select 4:2:2 output mode. This outputs 12-bits and the "Auto" dither setting (the default) is to not dither. For 4:2:2 output mode you wold only select dither to a lower bit depth than 12 if the TV/projector as a precision issue.

One example is a digital display with 60 Hertz refresh that shows some banding in dark areas. In this case dither to a lower bit depth may well mitigate the display's issues to some degree.

Generally I find that TVs built in the last couple year show less banding than earlier models. Still many digital displays have issue still. Many default to a lower Gamma setting (e.g. 1.8 rather than 2.2) to hide noise issues near black. So there are still issues in digital displays that you might need to consider when you calibrate, and when you select a dither setting.
Thanks for the input Jim ! The Oppo has all kinds of bit depth settings. 36bits, 30bits, etc. Does it even make any difference what I set this to when sending the signal to the Lumagen? 36bits or OFF?

Last edited by Drem; 04-22-2015 at 08:28 AM.
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post #1385 of 1403 Old 05-01-2015, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drem View Post
Thanks for the input Jim ! The Oppo has all kinds of bit depth settings. 36bits, 30bits, etc. Does it even make any difference what I set this to when sending the signal to the Lumagen? 36bits or OFF?
I would assume that the first time Jim answered was in regards to the OFF setting you had cited and he said it was correct. By the way, OFF means standard 24-bit (no Deep Color) which is perfect for Blu-ray and DVD movies. Assuming you are just playing commercially released movies you will never encounter Deep Colour.

In my opinion it does not make sense to turn on these increased bit-depth options as all they would do is pad the data with extra zeroes. This only increases bandwidth requirements on your HDMI cable and may complicate the HDCP handshake process with your display.

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post #1386 of 1403 Old 05-04-2015, 07:09 AM
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AVfile is correct.

Consumer sources use compressed 8-bit 4:2:0, and deep color cannot provide any additional information. Even after points are moved in the RGB color space for calibration, 4:2:2 at 12-bits is more than enough to accurately respresent these sources. Deep color is not going to improve the quality, and as AVfile points out, it will increase the bit-rate and potentially can cause additional HDMI cable issues.

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post #1387 of 1403 Old 05-08-2015, 08:30 PM
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Help with aspect ratio settings

Need help with Lumagen mini with my 2.35 screen and Sony Hw55 and Oppo 103-D

I'm trying to setup "Dolphin Tale 2" for the kids which is 1.85. I followed the instructions below but the image is still splitting outside the 2.35 screen. I could manually reduce the zoom on my Sony HW55 but want to see how I can do it through Lumagen mini. What am I messing up?

The PJ zoom was manually set so I can see the 2.35 movie perfectly. I did all the lumagen settings afterwards.


__________________________________________________ __________________________________

http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_...ens_032712.pdf

Procedure


This is the procedure to configure the Radiance for a system that includes a 16:9 projector
and a 2.35 screen. This procedure requires software rev 011812 or higher and assumes that
you are starting with factory default settings. To do a factory reset press “MENU 0999” and
then press “MENU, Save, OK, OK, OK”.

1. Set the output aspect ratio by pressing "MENU, Output, Styles, [1], Aspect Ratio, OK,
Single output aspect, OK, 235, OK”.

2. Set the output aspect sidebars to black by pressing “MENU, Output, Styles, [1],
Graybar, Sides, 0%, OK”.

3. Set the output shrink by pressing “MENU, Output, Styles, [1], Mask/Shrink, Shrink,
Top:12%, Right:0%, Bottom:12%, Left:0%, OK”.

Note: If you set the projector so that the image only spills over the top of the screen, set
the output shrink to “Top:24%, Right:0%, Bottom:0%, Left:0%”.

4. Set scale bias off by pressing “MENU, Input, Video Setup, [resolution], Size, [1.85],
Scale Bias, Off, All, A-D, OK”.

5. When you are finished, save the new settings by pressing “MENU, Save, OK, OK, OK".

6. Set the projector to its default 16:9 mode. (Sony is set to Normal zoom)

7. Set all the video sources to widescreen 16:9 output. (what does this mean?, I have an oppo 103-D and the source is Blu-Ray 1.85)

8. Press the appropriate input aspect ratio button on the Lumagen remote that matches the
aspect of the video input. To horizontally stretch a 16:9 image to fill the 2.35 screen,
press “16:9” and then press “NLS”.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________

Last edited by smuggymba; 05-08-2015 at 09:02 PM.
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post #1388 of 1403 Old 05-09-2015, 02:17 AM
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I don't have a Mini3D anymore, but I have the newer 2041 which is set up using the same tip as you've posted up there.

In my case the projector zoom is set to fill the screen with 2.35:1 content (and the 2.35 button pressed on the Lumagen remote). The projector aspect is set to 16:9 (ie no anamorphic settings on, but I have a JVC X500, so I don't know the name on a Sony, but it is basically just the setting that doesn't do any stretching).

I don't think you need to worry about the Oppo, but check it isn't set to zoom.

You should be able to press 1.85 (or 16:9/1.78:1) and have the image then 'shrink' so that the height fits on your screen, leaving black bars each side. If the image overspills the top and bottom of the screen then you haven't set the Lumagen up correctly: Make sure you press 'save' twice after making the changes in the tip and that you are on the same input and memory that you are using your player with. I can assure that it does work as described (and I did try it with my Mini3D too).

Finally, I guess you are aware of this, but when 'shrinking' the image for 1.85/16:9 content you are reducing the resolution of the image so that it is approximately 1440 x 810. The rest of the image is projected 'black'.

This is fine for quick AR changes like viewing trailers or disc menus, but if I'm watching a whole 1.85:1 film then I rezoom my projector and use a separate memory on my Lumagen so that I view this content at the full 1920 x 1080. However in my case I have lens memory so this is easier to do, so it is more of a pain with a manual/no memory zoom, but it just depends on how much you value picture quality.
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post #1389 of 1403 Old 05-09-2015, 01:55 PM
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smuggymba:

The instructions for the Radiance assume you have not tried to do aspect ratio control in the projector or source device. Sounds like you have tried with your projector.

The projector is set as 16:9 (step 6). So you will likely have to undo whatever you did in the projector for aspect ratio control. The source is also set to say it is driving a "16:9 TV" (Step 7 and the answer to your question). On most Bluray players you will set it a "16:9" TV and "Full" output mode so it does not try to change aspect ratios.

When setup per the instruction you would just press 1.85 to watch a 1.85 movie.

If you are having trouble, feel free to give us a call on Monday (503-574-2211) when you have your system up and running and can enter menu commands to change the setup.

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post #1390 of 1403 Old 05-09-2015, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post
This is fine for quick AR changes like viewing trailers or disc menus, but if I'm watching a whole 1.85:1 film then I rezoom my projector and use a separate memory on my Lumagen so that I view this content at the full 1920 x 1080. However in my case I have lens memory so this is easier to do, so it is more of a pain with a manual/no memory zoom, but it just depends on how much you value picture quality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
smuggymba:

The instructions for the Radiance assume you have not tried to do aspect ratio control in the projector or source device. Sounds like you have tried with your projector.

The projector is set as 16:9 (step 6). So you will likely have to undo whatever you did in the projector for aspect ratio control. The source is also set to say it is driving a "16:9 TV" (Step 7 and the answer to your question). On most Bluray players you will set it a "16:9" TV and "Full" output mode so it does not try to change aspect ratios.

When setup per the instruction you would just press 1.85 to watch a 1.85 movie.

If you are having trouble, feel free to give us a call on Monday (503-574-2211) when you have your system up and running and can enter menu commands to change the setup.
Thanks Kelvin and JRP.

Kelvin - I definitely want better quality and I'm willing to go through more steps to achieve this. I have Sony HW55 PJ and it does NOT have lens memory. Can I achieve full 1920 x 1080 with Lumagen or will I have to manually zoom with PJ?

JRP - Travelling for the next couple of weeks, will definitely call as soon as I'm back. Need to sort this out for sure.

Yesterday, I put on Breaking Bad @ Netflix which is 16:9 so I had the picture fill in the width of my 2.35 screen (some picture was flowing over on the top). That was my starting point. The PJ is set to "normal" zoom.

Then I did all the Lumagen settings as per the pdf (for 2.35 or 1.85 or 2.37) but didn't quite work. Of course, I'm doing something wrong. Will call Lumagen shortly.
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post #1391 of 1403 Old 05-09-2015, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
I definitely want better quality and I'm willing to go through more steps to achieve this. I have Sony HW55 PJ and it does NOT have lens memory. Can I achieve full 1920 x 1080 with Lumagen or will I have to manually zoom with PJ?



I put on Breaking Bad @ Netflix which is 16:9 so I had the picture fill in the width of my 2.35 screen (some picture was flowing over on the top). That was my starting point. The PJ is set to "normal" zoom.

In this case It should fill the height of the screen, not the width. Press the 16:9 button on the Radiance and (manually) Set the PJ zoom so that the entire picture is on the screen. You will have to mentally ignore the side pillars, or cover them with some kind of black material.
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post #1392 of 1403 Old 05-10-2015, 01:27 AM
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Yes, that is what I do for a whole 1.85:1 film; Lumagen in 16:9 mode and projector zoomed back so that the image fills the screen height leaving black side bars. I then I hang a pair of black velvet side panels to cover the unused sides of the screen as a final tweak.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...now using e-shift.
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post #1393 of 1403 Old 06-07-2015, 04:36 PM
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I have an odd problem, my mini 3d goes to first a static then blank screen about every 20 minutes or so but only when watching Netflix, I watch via a PS3, BR movies and games are fine on the PS3, I do not have the problem with my cable TV and HDDVD player either, just Nexflix?

Any idea what could be causing the problem?
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post #1394 of 1403 Old 06-09-2015, 02:26 PM
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Mine goes blank every time there is a HDMI handshake or change of resolution. Sometimes it stays black and I have to cycle power to get it back. Very annoying.
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post #1395 of 1403 Old 06-10-2015, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post
Mine goes blank every time there is a HDMI handshake or change of resolution. Sometimes it stays black and I have to cycle power to get it back. Very annoying.

How do you know it' is the mini and not another device in the system which is not working correctly? Have you contacted Lumagen or your retailer to try to get to the bottom of what is happening? What is the rest of your equipment. This is most often hdmi handshaking and can be caused by any of the devices in the chain and can be exacerbated by cables. There are also classic examples of display devices that are known to suffer from this, ie JVC X series (rs in USA) projectors where HDMI 1 input behaves differently to HDMI 2. So you get drop outs all the time on HDMI1 while the exact same scenario is completely robust on HDMI 2 (this is without a lumagen product in sight) I'd hope with some more information we can help you try to get a more robust solution

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post #1396 of 1403 Old 06-11-2015, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post
Mine goes blank every time there is a HDMI handshake or change of resolution. Sometimes it stays black and I have to cycle power to get it back. Very annoying.
I do a lot of debug by phone and I believe about 99% of the time this scenario is the HDMI cable, potentially made worse by a ground loop. People tend to be skeptical until they buy a better HDMI cable and it resolves the issue. I'm not talking an expensive cable. Often the more expensive cables are not as good as the well done generic HDMI cables.

Certainly cannot say this is true here, but I think the first step is to buy a 4k rated passive, or HDBaseT cable. NOTE: The Mini/XS/XD/XE were designed before the advent of Redmere active cables. The HDMI Standby output power is fused to meet the HDMI spec. They are not designed for Redmere. We have seen people use Redmere cables with these and have intermittent issues as the fuse drops the voltage as the Redmere scavenges power above the spec of HDMI. If you have a Redmere cable on the output of the Mini, this is likely a contributing factor.

Also note Radiance 2XXX units have enough power for a Redmere cable on their output (at least the Redmere cables we tested).

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post #1397 of 1403 Old 06-13-2015, 08:03 AM
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Just got a Mini few days ago and i will have a professional come by and calibrate my PJ next week.

Meanwhile, while I try to learn the GUI and the menu navigations I have some questions.

I want to be able to configure Vertical shift, Masking, etc common for ALL resolutions, but it seems that i have to do that independently for each resolution. I could live with that, but I cannot select a resolution that I want to configure manually, unless I find a video that has that specific resolution, which is a PITA.

Am I missing something here? Any tips are helpful.

Also, i have an issue with my Yamha RX-A2030. I have connected the HDMI 1 out of the AVR to my TV and the HDMI 2 out is connected to HDMI 1 in of the Lumagen which feeds the PJ.
Both HDMI outs of the AVR are active

The issue is that If I choose to watch a source to my TV (a ps3, apple tv, etc), there is a grey blinking screen, unless i do one of the two following things

A) Power up the lumagen, even if it is not needed. If i do the signal locks to my tv and then I can safely power off the lumagen.

B) disable the HDMI 2 out of the avr.

I noticed that when the lumagen is on stand by, the hdmi 2 out indication on the Avr blinks.

It seems to me that i have to configure something to either the lumagen or the avr. Also, the audio out is disabled on the HDMI outs on the avr. ( in stand by passthrough mode of course, the audio is sent to the displays)

Any ideas?


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post #1398 of 1403 Old 06-13-2015, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post
How do you know it' is the mini and not another device in the system which is not working correctly? Have you contacted Lumagen or your retailer to try to get to the bottom of what is happening? What is the rest of your equipment. This is most often hdmi handshaking and can be caused by any of the devices in the chain and can be exacerbated by cables. There are also classic examples of display devices that are known to suffer from this, ie JVC X series (rs in USA) projectors where HDMI 1 input behaves differently to HDMI 2. So you get drop outs all the time on HDMI1 while the exact same scenario is completely robust on HDMI 2 (this is without a lumagen product in sight) I'd hope with some more information we can help you try to get a more robust solution
Thanks for the reply. I have not reached out to anyone for support yet because I have not had time to characterize the problem fully or play with all the HDMI & EDID options in the Radiance. I recognize that the system is complicated by having an Anthem AV processor in the middle, and there may be more than one problem. For the purpose of this discussion, I only use Blu-ray players as sources (Sony 770, 790 set to 1080p with 24p and 3D set to AUTO, and Oppo 83 set to source direct). All sources are set to YCbCr 4:2:2 with no Deep Color or 4K and the Radiance output set to match.

I've been living with the slow, repeated handshakes for years. I used to run a CRT so the HDFury3 was my "display device" and I just assumed it was being finicky. The Anthem is an AVM-50v3D model with its video processor set to pass-through, so it should be just acting as an HDMI switch passing the source signal on to the Radiance. The problem has always been with the screen blanking out for several seconds and re-establishing, multiple times when loading a Blu-ray, watching trailers, going to the menu and selecting features to watch. I attribute this to brief changes of resolution or frame rate in the source material, but I do have fixed resolutions selected in the source and Radiance set to keep a fixed resolution and frame rate. Other than missing the first 10-15 seconds of a trailer or featurette I could live with this.

However about a year ago I went to a digital projector (Sony 95ES) and things got worse instead of better. In addition to the above delays, when the system is powered-on cold I get a black screen despite the HDMI connection to the PJ being established (the OSD indicates HDMI1 is receiving an input signal). I have the PJ setup to display a blue background when there is no signal, which I never see unless I switch to the unused HDMI2 (thus confirming OSD indicates "x" when no signal is present). So the PJ thinks there is something to display but there is no picture present.

I did some troubleshooting today. I first tried cycling power on the source player, no effect; then the Anthem processor, no effect; then toggled input selection on the PJ, no effect (it went to the blue screen, as expected, then back to black). Only putting the Radiance in Standby for 5 seconds then turning it back ON resulted in the correct image appearing. I then turned the entire system OFF (my programmable remote turns everything off and on at once) and waited a few minutes for the PJ to finish its cooling cycle and shut down. I turned everything back on the same way as the first time and got an image right away! The only difference possible being the electronics were still warm as opposed to sitting all night.

I have recently started using "Split A/V" with the Sony 790 sending audio only to the Anthem and video directly to the Radiance Input 2. This seems to have reduced or sped-up the handshake delays I mentioned above but has done nothing to ameliorate the black screen on startup. I also noticed the Radiance had input Auto Select and Reselect features enabled which I have now disabled as I have programmed my remote macros to force selection of the correct inputs.

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post #1399 of 1403 Old 06-13-2015, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
I do a lot of debug by phone and I believe about 99% of the time this scenario is the HDMI cable, potentially made worse by a ground loop. People tend to be skeptical until they buy a better HDMI cable and it resolves the issue. I'm not talking an expensive cable. Often the more expensive cables are not as good as the well done generic HDMI cables.

Certainly cannot say this is true here, but I think the first step is to buy a 4k rated passive, or HDBaseT cable. NOTE: The Mini/XS/XD/XE were designed before the advent of Redmere active cables. The HDMI Standby output power is fused to meet the HDMI spec. They are not designed for Redmere. We have seen people use Redmere cables with these and have intermittent issues as the fuse drops the voltage as the Redmere scavenges power above the spec of HDMI. If you have a Redmere cable on the output of the Mini, this is likely a contributing factor.

Also note Radiance 2XXX units have enough power for a Redmere cable on their output (at least the Redmere cables we tested).
Thanks Jim, this is news to me. Of course my black screen on startup problem started when I installed the new digital PJ and had to go from a simple 6ft HDMI cable on the Radiance Mini output to a smarter 35ft cable. I don't have a Redmere but I think my Planet Waves cable may have a similar circuit:

http://www.clrtec.com/index.php?rout...roduct_id=2124

Quote:
Special note regarding Planet Waves Long Length HDMI "E" Series 30ft., 35ft., 40ft., 45ft incorporating 4kx2k 18Gb/s chipset technology:



Planet Waves Long Length HDMI "E" series cables exceed all specifications for HDMI High Speed 1.4a spec. to deliver full HD 1080P picture and sound for cable lengths in excess of 25 feet. In addition these cables incorporate both Ethernet and Audio Return capabilities into the design ensuring they're ready for advances in HDMI technology.

Advanced cable design and construction is required to meet the demand of HDMI high speed data transfer over distance. In order to ensure correct signal transfer Planet Waves Long Length HDMIE cables incorporate an integrated circuit on the display end of the HDMI cable. This circuit enables our HDMI E Series cables to pass these data streams over distance while maintaining the HDMI signal integrity, clocking, and full data signal transfer.
I have a dumb cheap 25ft HDMI cable that I can try temporarily.

As I said in my earlier post, temperature does seem to be a factor. If the system is "warm" it works; if left off for an hour it fails. I suppose I could try leaving the Radiance ON to characterize further.

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post #1400 of 1403 Old 06-13-2015, 01:27 PM
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^ I think you will find that most radiance owners leave them on and only put them in standby if they change a cable etc. Power draw is minimal.
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post #1401 of 1403 Old Yesterday, 10:21 AM
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Surfdrifter: Menu 0 9 1 0 ON HANDSET will turn on Service Mode of scaler. That will allow you to access set up of any sub resolution menu tree without having to actually send a signal of that resolution to the scaler.
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post #1402 of 1403 Old Yesterday, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post
Surfdrifter: Menu 0 9 1 0 ON HANDSET will turn on Service Mode of scaler. That will allow you to access set up of any sub resolution menu tree without having to actually send a signal of that resolution to the scaler.

Thank you! I knew i was missing something!


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post #1403 of 1403 Unread Today, 05:56 PM
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So thePlanet Wave cable you reference uses Redmere technology (or equivalent), and should not be used with the RadianceMini/XS/XD/XE. And allow me to repeat that Redmere can be used with the 2XXX units, and the 4k Radiance Pro (in Beta).

You can find a good passive HDMI cable, or use a passive cable plus HDMI extender (such as our VidExt), or HDBaseT, or an externally powered fiber extender.

All:
You can select Service Mode in the "Other" menu. There is also a permanent Service Mode. If you are doing your own setup you can select this mode and then do a Save. Then you will always be in Service Mode for when you do things requiring Service More to be active.

All:
We do recommend turning the Radiance units off between use. With good HDMI cables this should not pose any issues unless other devices have HDMI power on order issues. In this case leaving the Radiance ON may make everything work better.

Jim Peterson
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