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Official Lumagen RadianceMini 3D thread.

193K views 2K replies 220 participants last post by  rinvo 
#1 ·
Lets start an official Radiancemini3D thread. As customers take delivery please post your feedback and questions here.

From everyone: Thank you Lumagen!


We are running a special which can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1304552



Lumagen Press Release:


Embargo release until January 6, 2011


RadianceMini 3D joins the award winning Lumagen® Radiance™ video processor family.

January 6, 2011 — Lumagen®, Inc., a specialist in the design and manufacture of video products for the home and corporate markets, is announcing the RadianceMini 3D. The RadianceMini 3D joins other members of the Radiance family, which includes the CEA® 2010 Platinum Video Product of the Year, the RadianceXE.

The RadianceMini 3D sports two HDMI® inputs, and one HDMI output, and can be controlled by either the included IR remote, or by RS-232. Control and setup are the same as other units in the Radiance family. In addition, it provides the same exceptional video quality that the Radiance line has become known for. The unit’s case measures in at a diminutive 8.5” by 5” by 1.05” (216mm by 127mm by 27mm) and has mounting tabs so it can be fastened to a shelf, or to the wall behind a flat-panel display.

HDMI 1.4 3D is supported, including scaling and aspect ratio control for 3D Bluray movies for use with an anamorphic lens, such as those produced by Panamorph®. For dual-projector 3D, two units can be used with each receiving 3D and outputting video for either the left-eye or right-eye.

Jim Peterson, Lumagen’s president, stated, “Our customers have been asking us for a new Radiance product optimized for small systems. The RadianceMini 3D fulfills this request, as well as the need for premier video processing when another product, such as an AVR, or HDMI matrix-switch, is being used for source selection.”

As with the other members of the Radiance line, proprietary No-ring™ scaling, linear-Gamma RGB-color-palette CMS, 21-point parametric grayscale calibration, video deinterlacing, MPEG artifact reduction, temporal noise reduction, and other features, combine to provide the best video quality available.

The RadianceMini 3D is currently available, and is priced at $1995 MSRP.

For more information contact Lumagen at:

503-574-2211 Voice • 503-296-2384 Fax • www.lumagen.comsales@lumagen.com

# # #

Lumagen is a registered trademark of Lumagen, Incorporated. VisionDVI, VisionHDP, VisionHDQ, VisionPro HDP, Radiance, RadianceXD, RadianceXE, and RadianceXS, RadianceMini, are trademarks of Lumagen Incorporated. Other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.
 
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#103 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg /forum/post/20005934


"which outputs at 10 bits after processing the 8 bit input and I do this specifically to avoid banding (which I've not seen on the VEQ)"


In the Radiance you can set it to output 8, 10 or 12 bit. Match it to what is appropriate for your display.


Shawn

Where do you set the output to 12 bit? I've seen 8 and 10, but not 12.
 
#106 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy /forum/post/20003006


I assume that you have not color calibrated yet? I did over the weekend. I am now seeing very obvious banding on DVDs and on some HD sources. It goes away when I turn the CMS off. There are some other issues as well. I have not gotten to the bottom of this yet and it may simply be user error. But, I had a Radiance in the past and did not experience any issues like this. I am kind of out of ideas and have e-mailed Lumagen's tech support.

You are calibrating RS40 or RS50, right? I noticed similar thing (very very obvious color banding) with my X3 + Radiance XS when I tried to use "Wide1" color space and have the problem narrowed to 2 different options

1. Could be caused when X3 color saturation is brought down a LOT. Wide1 in X3 is very oversaturated so the colours are tweaked a lot when Wide1 is brought down to REC709. I have a wild theory that this somehow might cause banding due to color tracking issues or something with new JVC DLA

2. My Chroma 5. It seems to read quite considerably different than my Eye One pro. This has been collecting dust a bit too long so it may have to go to Spectracal for recalibration. Dunno if a bad meter could cause banding, not that experienced with this stuff yet.


I now have very nice calibration using Radiance, Calman 4.1 Enthusiast + E1 Pro but I had to use Standard color space where green is slightly undersaturated. But gamma/greyscale are tracking quite perfectly and everything is spot on on colours (best skin tones etc. I've ever seen with any projector) except very slight green undersaturation. CAnnot see the undersaturation on the screen, but knowing it is there pains me a bit. I'd actually propably want to create another CMS profile that is slightly and consistently oversaturated for cartoons etc.


I've been meaning to debug this a bit more (like trying bring wide1 to REC709 with Calman + E1P as I used C5 last I tried) before contacting Lumagen, but I've been super busy and doing a full calibration with E1 Pro a few hours every time. I try to watch a movie every now and then instead of always tweaking
 
#107 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tn1krr /forum/post/20007134


You are calibrating RS40 or RS50, right? I noticed similar thing (very very obvious color banding) with my X3 + Radiance XS when I tried to use "Wide1" color space and have the problem narrowed to 2 different options

1. Could be caused when X3 color saturation is brought down a LOT. Wide1 in X3 is very oversaturated so the colours are tweaked a lot when Wide1 is brought down to REC709. I have a wild theory that this somehow might cause banding due to color tracking issues or something with new JVC DLA

2. My Chroma 5. It seems to read quite considerably different than my Eye One pro. This has been collecting dust a bit too long so it may have to go to Spectracal for recalibration. Dunno if a bad meter could cause banding, not that experienced with this stuff yet.


I now have very nice calibration using Radiance, Calman 4.1 Enthusiast + E1 Pro but I had to use Standard color space where green is slightly undersaturated. But gamma/greyscale are tracking quite perfectly and everything is spot on on colours (best skin tones etc. I've ever seen with any projector) except very slight green undersaturation. CAnnot see the undersaturation on the screen, but knowing it is there pains me a bit. I'd actually propably want to create another CMS profile that is slightly and consistently oversaturated for cartoons etc.


I've been meaning to debug this a bit more (like trying bring wide1 to REC709 with Calman + E1P as I used C5 last I tried) before contacting Lumagen, but I've been super busy and doing a full calibration with E1 Pro a few hours every time. I try to watch a movie every now and then instead of always tweaking

The RS50 went back so I am am keeping the RS20.


I solved the problem. Had I done it more scientifically, I might have some insight about what is going on. As it is, I only have theories.


I had been calibrating the RS20 using the User1 Preset with the CMS turned off. This is probably the widest color space that the RS20 can muster. I changed this to the Cinema 2 preset. If I recall correctly, Cinema 2 is not as wide as User1 with the CMS turned off. Using Cinema 2, I now have no issues. This experience supports your theory that the largest color spaces are too wide to be brought in without banding. But, I don't think that the wide color space is the cause for me.


When I first began correcting my calibration, I measured what I had done earlier. For whatever reason, the Y of some of the colors was way too low - xy positions looked okay. So, I had added way too much correction. I am still not completely sure why I did this but I have a theory. After I zeroed out my existing calibration and started from scratch, Everything was proceeding as it should. When I got to Yellow, I got some really weird readings. I was sure that they were not correct. So, I exited and restarted Calman. When I measured what I had done, R, G and B measured fine but C, M and Y did not. So, I was getting incorrect readings on these colors. I finished the calibration, correcting C, M and Y. Everything now measures correctly. I checked 100% stim and it is also fine.


I went back and looked at the material in which banding was obvious. It was gone. I checked for banding on cable and it was also gone.


So, I think the cause of my banding is that I added too much correction because I was getting bad readings. I am not sure why this happened. It could be that I was not diligent enough in reinitializing the i1pro over time and it was drifting. So I am thinking what happened to me is a measurement issue. The cause of it is probably me.


In your case, I would not accept an undersaturated green. If you saved your "Wide" Calibration, I would go back and remeasure it. Measure it with both the i1pro and the Chroma 5 and attempt to draw some conclusions. If it was truly accurate when you did the calibration, it should still be accurate now (but I always get slight measurement differences when I got back and remeasure).
 
#108 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg /forum/post/20006393


If you are not applying dither it is 12 bit output. You add dither when you are truncating down to 10 or 8 bit output.


Shawn

I don't see any general options to select the bitrate of the output. There is an option in the dither feature to select 10 or 8 bit, but I do not understand that this affects the output. Could be wrong. At one point, I was using 10 bit dither and outputting RGB and the RS20 reported 8 bits. I think that RGB is limited to 8 bits. When I output YCbCr, the RS20 does not report any bitrate.


The manual reports that processing is 10 bit by the calibration pipeline is 12 bit. I assumed that the 12 bit processing was internal.


I read somewhere that:


Quote:
The Gennum VXP chip does a minimum of 10 bit processing but if the HDMI output is selected for YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB it is dithered and truncated to 8 bit. The YCbCr 4:2:2 supports the full 10 bit resolution of the VXP chip and is highly recommended for anyone using a digital display featuring an HDMI input. This will help with the common “banding” and “contouring” artifacts so typically seen with digital displays.
 
#109 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy /forum/post/20007299


I don't see any general options to select the bitrate of the output. There is an option in the dither feature to select 10 or 8 bit, but I do not understand that this affects the output. Could be wrong. At one point, I was using 10 bit dither and outputting RGB and the RS20 reported 8 bits. I think that RGB is limited to 8 bits. When I output YCbCr, the RS20 does not report any bitrate.


The manual reports that processing is 10 bit by the calibration pipeline is 12 bit. I assumed that the 12 bit processing was internal.


I read somewhere that:

Hi LG,


Something must be wrong with your driver (or altered by the Radiance), if I select YCbCr 4-2-2 I get 8 bits reported on the JVC. If I select 4-4-4 I get 10 bits (this is with an nVidia 6870 Catalyst 1.1). If I select 4-4-4 with my Sony BD player I get 12 bits on the JVC. There is no Radiance in the chain though. RGB Studio is limited to 4-2-2 (8 bits), but RGB Enhanced is 4-4-4, reported as 10 bits on the JVC.


Do you go through an AVR or direct from the HTPC to the Radiance to the JVC?


I read in the Lumagen documentation that the recommended input colorspace was YCbCr 4-2-2. but I wonder if this also applies for HTPC, as selecting RGB Standard might avoid a double conversion.


I do not know if with recent drivers when YCbCr 4-2-2 is selected in the driver, it is output as such (no conversion), or if the YCbCr 4-2-2 from the bluray is first converted to RGB to be displayed locally, then back to YCbCr to be sent t the HDMI output, which would mean a double conversion. I know this used to be the case, but I'm not sure it is still the case with recent drivers and HDMI present on the graphics adapter.
 
#110 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 /forum/post/20007606


Hi LG,


Something must be wrong with your driver (or altered by the Radiance), if I select YCbCr 4-2-2 I get 8 bits reported on the JVC. If I select 4-4-4 I get 10 bits (this is with an nVidia 6870 Catalyst 1.1). If I select 4-4-4 with my Sony BD player I get 12 bits on the JVC. There is no Radiance in the chain though. RGB Studio is limited to 4-2-2 (8 bits), but RGB Enhanced is 4-4-4, reported as 10 bits on the JVC.


Do you go through an AVR or direct from the HTPC to the Radiance to the JVC?


I read in the Lumagen documentation that the recommended input colorspace was YCbCr 4-2-2. but I wonder if this also applies for HTPC, as selecting RGB Standard might avoid a double conversion.


I do not know if with recent drivers when YCbCr 4-2-2 is selected in the driver, it is output as such (no conversion), or if the YCbCr 4-2-2 from the bluray is first converted to RGB to be displayed locally, then back to YCbCr to be sent t the HDMI output, which would mean a double conversion. I know this used to be the case, but I'm not sure it is still the case with recent drivers and HDMI present on the graphics adapter.

There may be a double conversion being done on the PC (YCbCr -> RGB -> YCbCr). I don't know. In the Radeon thread here on AVS, someone from Spectracal posted some pictures of greyscale ramps where YCbCr looked the best and showed the least amount of banding. It could just be a good conversion. Maybe there is no conversion.


But, the Radiance is outputting YCbCr directly to the projector. It is the last thing in the chain before the projector (so after the PC and AVR). I checked yesterday and the projector does not show the bit depth but does show YCbCr. Maybe this was a fluke so I'll check again.
 
#111 ·
I've seen no evidence that the Radiance outputs 12-bit unless you send it 36-bit Deep Color from a source (the only source I have that does that is my Oppo through processing). Every other time my RS-50 reports 8-bit input from my Radiance.
 
#112 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot /forum/post/20007979


I've seen no evidence that the Radiance outputs 12-bit unless you send it 36-bit Deep Color from a source (the only source I have that does that is my Oppo through processing). Every other time my RS-50 reports 8-bit input from my Radiance.
This post from Jim Peterson says that the Radiance is 10 bit from input to output.


I think that the YCbCr 4:2:2 output is 10 bits.
 
#113 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy /forum/post/20008018

This post from Jim Peterson says that the Radiance is 10 bit from input to output.


I think that the YCbCr 4:2:2 output is 10 bits.

Thanks, I was searching for that post!
 
#115 ·
I remember reading somewhere in the manual (I think) that they recommend setting the output to YCbCr 4:2:2 though I wasn't sure what the reason behind this was, the link above explained it well enough so thanks.



I'm currently still using my VideoEQ with my projector until I can spend some time recalibrating my HD350 using the Mini3D. With the M3D set to YCbCr 4:2:2 will I be feeding my HD350 with 10 bits (I suppose it will show up as 10 bit in the 'deepcolour' info menu if so)? Maybe I'm overthinking this as I guess Lumagen have already thought about how processing an 8 bit signal will effect it WRT rounding errors/truncation...I should just calibrate and get on enjoying the picture.
 
#117 ·
Hi LG,


Sorry, my last post was incorrect.


I double checked tonight, and here is what I get reported on the JVC depending on the pixel format on my AMD driver:


YCbCR 4-4-4 : 10 bits

YCbCr 4-2-2 : nothing (like you, which means no deep colour)

RGB Studio Limited 4-4-4 : 10 bits

RGB PC Standard (full) 4-4-4 : 10 bits


And of course bluray outputs 4-2-0 not 4-2-2


So I don't know what I was doing to post som much wrongness in one single post, but it looks like what you report is normal and the Radiance or your AVR isn't interfering.


I guess it just shows I've sadly reached the age when I should stop trusting my memory.


Sorry!
 
#118 ·
I had a quick play only using my TV which can't accpet anything other than 8 bits. I changed to YCbCr 4:4:4 and the dither setting to 10 bits but I didn't lose the picture on the TV, which makes me think it wasn't 10 bit output. (In a similar setting on the Edge I would only get a picture on the HD350 which would show 10 bit in the deepcolour menu).


Have to wait until tomorrow to try the different options to see if I can get the HD350 showing 10 bits in the information menu. Another (slightly perverse) idea is to temporarily connect my Edge after the Mini3D just to see what it's information screen says about the input.
 
#120 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 /forum/post/20009972


Hi LG,


Sorry, my last post was incorrect.


I double checked tonight, and here is what I get reported on the JVC depending on the pixel format on my AMD driver:


YCbCR 4-4-4 : 10 bits

YCbCr 4-2-2 : nothing (like you, which means no deep colour)

RGB Studio Limited 4-4-4 : 10 bits

RGB PC Standard (full) 4-4-4 : 10 bits


And of course bluray outputs 4-2-0 not 4-2-2


So I don't know what I was doing to post som much wrongness in one single post, but it looks like what you report is normal and the Radiance or your AVR isn't interfering.


I guess it just shows I've sadly reached the age when I should stop trusting my memory.


Sorry!

That's weird because I am pretty sure that when I output RGB from the Radiance, it came up as 8 bit.


I have to admit that I don't yet really understand what this means or why/if it is important.


I guess I can understand and accept that the VXP in the Radiance likes internally processing YCbCr 4:2:2 data. What I don't know is what the bit depth is of the YCbCr that is being output. It seems to me that more bits is better than less, but I suspect that this may be simplistic thinking. If you are processing data at 10 or 12 bits I would think that something gets lost if you convert it back down to 8 bits to be output. Again, I just don't know the answer.


I can do what I am told to do but I would rather understand why before doing it.
 
#121 ·
"and the dither setting to 10 bits but I didn't lose the picture on the TV, which makes me think it wasn't 10 bit output. "


You won't loose the picture if you send more bits then the display uses, the display will just truncate the bits. Sort of like what happens if you send 18bits of audio data to a 16 bit DAC.


Shawn
 
#122 ·
"It seems to me that more bits is better than less, but I suspect that this may be simplistic thinking."


More bits are better if the display can use them. More bits (if they are used) means smoother gradations, less banding. If the display gets more bits then it can handle and simply truncates the bits that can in turn increase banding.


When you process at a higher number of bits than the display can accept to reduce the bit depth you dither down to the lower number of bits.


Shawn
 
#123 ·
Here is a quote from Jim Peterson from a couple of weeks ago regarding 12 bit output on the Radiance:

For 4:2:2 output we can dither to a lower bit depth. Whether to use 12 bit or dither to 10, 8, 7, or 6, depends on your display electronics and whether they truncate the input or internally dither. If the display processing is 12-bit or more then 12-bit (no dither) is best most likely. If the processing in the display is 10-bit then dither to 10 bits.
 
#124 ·
Shawn your link seemed to be broken. Is this the release you were refering to:

Beta Release 110207- Adds output type setting (RGB, YCbCr422, YCbCr444) in the output menu under Output:Configs:XXX: . Output type was previously always RGB so that's what you'll initially still be using unless you change it. Adds output dither setting next to the new output type setting. The output dither can make a difference for the YCbCr 422 output type if the display is using less than 12 bits, so you would set it to 8 or 10 bpp to match what the display is using. Also adds output color format setting which is only useful with the new YCbCr output types. The "auto" setting should be fine for this but if you suspect your display is using the wrong format it can be set manually to match. Adds the analog Scart input type for inputs 7-10 which you can set under the Input menu. Several small bugfixes.


I hear what you say regarding bit depth but usually if I try to send 10 bits to my TV it simply doesn't display anything (it's 3-4 years old and doesn't even accept 24p for example). I took the continued picture as a sign that I hadn't set the Mini3D to output 10 bit given my past experience with trying this on the Edge (sorry) VP. I think I'll quietly do some checking using my old Edge (sorry again) after the M3D just to use it's info screen to try to understand what's going on.


EDIT: One last quick question: We're talking about the control in the 'style' setting? Style/HDMI format/dither/ dither position: (Auto/off/10 bit out/8 bit out/7 bit out/6 bit out being the options I can see with my TV connected)?
 
#125 ·
"We're talking about the control in the 'style' setting? Style/HDMI format/dither/ dither position: (Auto/off/10 bit out/8 bit out/7 bit out/6 bit out being the options I can see with my TV connected)?"


That sounds like the correct control but I haven't played with those setting since the all inclusive Output configs were expanded out to also have the CMS and Style Configs.


Shawn
 
#126 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg /forum/post/20010408


Here is a quote from Jim Peterson from a couple of weeks ago regarding 12 bit output on the Radiance:

For 4:2:2 output we can dither to a lower bit depth. Whether to use 12 bit or dither to 10, 8, 7, or 6, depends on your display electronics and whether they truncate the input or internally dither. If the display processing is 12-bit or more then 12-bit (no dither) is best most likely. If the processing in the display is 10-bit then dither to 10 bits.

Shawn,


With a projector like mine (an RS20) do you think it would be better to dither or not to dither? If it is better to dither, at what bit depth should I dither to?


There is a well known test clip that the RS20 has trouble with (actually most JVCs before the current generation). It is a scene showing a girl swinging in a hammock from the FPD benchmark disk. This clip shows horrible banding with the earlier JVCs. I tried this clip with 10 bit dithering and the banding goes away. I left it at 10 bits and did not investigate further.
 
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