Official Lumagen RadianceMini 3D thread. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1223 Old 01-06-2011, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Lets start an official Radiancemini3D thread. As customers take delivery please post your feedback and questions here.
From everyone: Thank you Lumagen!

We are running a special which can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1304552


Lumagen Press Release:

Embargo release until January 6, 2011

RadianceMini 3D joins the award winning Lumagen® Radiance™ video processor family.
January 6, 2011 — Lumagen®, Inc., a specialist in the design and manufacture of video products for the home and corporate markets, is announcing the RadianceMini 3D. The RadianceMini 3D joins other members of the Radiance family, which includes the CEA® 2010 Platinum Video Product of the Year, the RadianceXE.
The RadianceMini 3D sports two HDMI® inputs, and one HDMI output, and can be controlled by either the included IR remote, or by RS-232. Control and setup are the same as other units in the Radiance family. In addition, it provides the same exceptional video quality that the Radiance line has become known for. The unit’s case measures in at a diminutive 8.5” by 5” by 1.05” (216mm by 127mm by 27mm) and has mounting tabs so it can be fastened to a shelf, or to the wall behind a flat-panel display.
HDMI 1.4 3D is supported, including scaling and aspect ratio control for 3D Bluray movies for use with an anamorphic lens, such as those produced by Panamorph®. For dual-projector 3D, two units can be used with each receiving 3D and outputting video for either the left-eye or right-eye.
Jim Peterson, Lumagen’s president, stated, “Our customers have been asking us for a new Radiance product optimized for small systems. The RadianceMini 3D fulfills this request, as well as the need for premier video processing when another product, such as an AVR, or HDMI matrix-switch, is being used for source selection.”
As with the other members of the Radiance line, proprietary No-ring™ scaling, linear-Gamma RGB-color-palette CMS, 21-point parametric grayscale calibration, video deinterlacing, MPEG artifact reduction, temporal noise reduction, and other features, combine to provide the best video quality available.
The RadianceMini 3D is currently available, and is priced at $1995 MSRP.
For more information contact Lumagen at:
503-574-2211 Voice • 503-296-2384 Fax • www.lumagen.comsales@lumagen.com
# # #
Lumagen is a registered trademark of Lumagen, Incorporated. VisionDVI, VisionHDP, VisionHDQ, VisionPro HDP, Radiance, RadianceXD, RadianceXE, and RadianceXS, RadianceMini, are trademarks of Lumagen Incorporated. Other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.
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post #2 of 1223 Old 01-06-2011, 08:28 AM
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The unit is operationally the same as a Radiance XS just with only two HDMI in and one HDMI out. So most questions are already answered in the Radiance Q&A thread.

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post #3 of 1223 Old 01-06-2011, 10:54 AM
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Would one of these support infitec color correction? Obviously the user would have to manually configure the specifics to match their projector, but do the corrections allow for that level of customization?

Also, it mentions that this would work for dual-projector splitting of hdmi 1.4 video, but two would be required; in that case would one fo the XS units serve that purpose?
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post #4 of 1223 Old 01-06-2011, 12:19 PM
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Yes. If one wanted to do two projector 3D and one already owned a Radiance with 3D key upgrade, one could do it by simply buying a RadianceMini 3d and using it for one projector and the main Radiance with two HDMI outs feeding the other, the second HDMI out on it would feed the audio. One Radiance with two HDMI outs can not feed two separate video signals out. Each Radiance unit would use the CMS and gamma etc in it to feed its projector. One would need an HDMI splitter before the Radiances however.

I have requested Lumagen to investigate whether the CMS would have enough range for the Infitec color corrections. But if a mode were to be added for the Infitec, licensing issues would likely arise.

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post #5 of 1223 Old 01-06-2011, 01:17 PM
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Cool - I'm sure infitec licensing would be crazy high, so not what I'd hope for, but just want to know if the range is there

So two units would be required for that particular application either way, that's good to know. Thanks!
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post #6 of 1223 Old 01-06-2011, 01:53 PM
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Also It can not be updated to the "+" model for 72HZ output that CRT'rs like to use.

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post #7 of 1223 Old 01-07-2011, 06:18 AM
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Forgive my ignorance but what is a virtual HDMI input?

"The RadianceMini 3D sports two HDMI inputs (each with two virtual inputs), "
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post #8 of 1223 Old 01-07-2011, 06:26 AM
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It is basically where you have say, a single hardware input....but the processor can be told that actually there are say, four. In the set up of the processor you tell it that when input2 is selected on lumagen remote you load up all your settings for your input2 device but look at the single physical INPUT1 for the video and audio. You can do the same for virtual input 3, 4 etc...in that way you can have multiple devices that all output the same res or refresh (but which may have different playback characteristics) all sharing the same physical input but all having their own unique calibrated settings for contrast, brightness, colour, noise reduction sharpening, de-interlacing...etc, etc....

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post #9 of 1223 Old 01-07-2011, 09:57 AM
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Is the learning curve any better than the old Vision line?

What are its video features and performance differences compared to the XS?

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post #10 of 1223 Old 01-07-2011, 12:07 PM
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It has the same video performance as the XS. Obviously due to the major hardware differences on inputs and outputs it doesn't have the same audio switching/transcoding functionality.

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post #11 of 1223 Old 01-07-2011, 12:53 PM
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I asked in the projectors forum on the Lumagen vs JVC CMS thread, but perhaps I'll get more reponse here. I'm trying to deceide if it's worth me getting the Mini3D and selling my existing Edge plus Video EQ Pro (before too many people hear about this new Lumagen ).

I am looking at this as a longer term purchase, but in some ways this makes me less likely to buy another VP as I wonder whether they will be needed for me in future if I buy an X7 or X9 one day. With just the JVC alone 3D vertical stretch is all I'd be lacking...but 3D gives me a headache, so I won't be going that route. Other points made below, which show my usage pattern and might help sway the arguement one way or the other:

1. I watch pretty much exclusively BluRay on my projector (HD350), what little DVD I do watch looks good enough given the source and the Edge to upscale. DVDs tend to be for the kids anyway so PQ isn't deemed too critical (not yet anyway, but I'm training them ). Apart from calibration I wonder how the Lumagen would improve my 1080/24p content? Note also that I have the Edge's and my projector's sharpness and detail enhance controls at 0 as I find it just adds noise and false edges to the picture. Therefore I'm unlikely to use the Lumagen sharpening (never did with my previous HDQ either for the same reasons).

2. I've recently calibrated my setup using the VideoEQ Pro for CMS and fine tuning the greyscale/gamma. I rented an i1Pro to do this so the near 'perfect' measurements I got with Chromapure lead me to think that I may well be getting all there is to get from my current setup.

3. I use an Isco II lens for most of my viewing, so although I found that the Edge seems to do a cleaner vertical stretch compared to the one in the projector on test patterns. However if I'm really honest I couldn't tell on real content, but the Edge is more convienient.

4. As mentioned above 3D via the current JVCs isn't any good for me, so I'd be looking even further ahead to perhaps some future laser powered model before I could live with it. Even then I'm going to need a long demo to make sure as it took a good few hours for the last 3D induced headache to clear...not pleasant at all, but I seemed to be the only one effected so it must just be me.

5. I'm probably going to get the Oppo 93 or 95 but this is to allow me to use the 7.1 analogue outputs into my AV9 processor and for the subtitle shift. I don't know if this would make any difference to the decision, but thought it worth mentioning. I'll be buying this from the same dealer as the Mini3D so there may be a slight cost benefit buying both together if I'm convinced it's worthwhile.

6. I only have two sources that I mainly use, so I'd be happy to use my AV9 to switch between my PVR and PC and leave the BluRay connected directly to the Mini3D.

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post #12 of 1223 Old 01-07-2011, 01:38 PM
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Quote:


Is the learning curve any better than the old Vision line?

We've worked hard to make it much easier. There's now built in help for commands in the menu accessible by pressing 'help' on the remote. There is also much more descriptive text in the menu. All commands are available in the menu now instead of some being only accessible via special codes as in the old Vision. The default setup also automates switching output modes where it makes sense---.ie if the input switches from 1080p60 to 1080p24 the output will also switch to 1080p24 if the display accepts it.

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post #13 of 1223 Old 01-08-2011, 06:30 AM
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So with only 2 HDMI inputs and 1 out what makes this worth more than say the DUO? VPs are becoming an even harder sell these days. The need is growing less and less. I would have targeted a msrp of 995.00 for this. At a msrp of 1995.00 I think lumagen thinks it is 1995. Seriously though at the current asking price it is still very hard to justify.

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post #14 of 1223 Old 01-08-2011, 07:03 AM
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This vp can scale 3d and the cms works for 3d. It also allows custom refresh rates and resolutions other than the standard resolutions (a must for crt users)

I think it should sell for under 1k as well. I do feel it is a little high priced. I think if it wasnpricedn a little more agressive they wouldn't be able to keep them on the shelves. I still want one but I need to sell some toys to pay for it.



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So with only 2 HDMI inputs and 1 out what makes this worth more than say the DUO? VPs are becoming an even harder sell these days. The need is growing less and less. I would have targeted a msrp of 995.00 for this. At a msrp of 1995.00 I think lumagen thinks it is 1995. Seriously though at the current asking price it is still very hard to justify.

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post #15 of 1223 Old 01-08-2011, 08:48 AM
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Lumagen's calibration tools are top notch. Plus, there is still a need for good deinterlacing and scaling. Problem is that many of us have displays that have good calibration controls, deinterlacing and scaling. So for many of us, we are thinking about buying a Lumagen for controls that are easier to use but may not provide tangible PQ benefits.

I think I would buy this at $1k but not at $1,400. It may not be possible to price these this way. The video processor market is not huge so I wonder if Lumagen could ever get the volume that would be required to price these the way we want.

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post #16 of 1223 Old 01-08-2011, 09:05 AM
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"Apart from calibration I wonder how the Lumagen would improve my 1080/24p content? Note also that I have the Edge's and my projector's sharpness and detail enhance controls at 0 as I find it just adds noise and false edges to the picture. Therefore I'm unlikely to use the Lumagen sharpening (never did with my previous HDQ either for the same reasons)."


You might like a touch of the Lumagen's NR and adaptive contrast control. Used lightly I think they can improve the picture. The sharpening filters if used to light amounts can sometimes benefit too. Keep in mind the Lumagen's controls are much finer granularity then what the Edge has. For Sharpening it has controls for horizontal sharpness, vertical sharpness, diagonal sharpness and vertical, horizontal and diagonal controls for texture as well. I think the range of those controls is 0-31. For NR you have 3D, MNR and BAR.

"3. I use an Isco II lens for most of my viewing, so although I found that the Edge seems to do a cleaner vertical stretch compared to the one in the projector on test patterns. However if I'm really honest I couldn't tell on real content, but the Edge is more convienient. "

I think the scaling in the Lumagen beats the Edge. Do you leave your ISCO in place all the time or just slide it in for 2.35? I use an ISCO II as well but leave it in place all the time so the scaling of the Lumagen is always being used.

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post #17 of 1223 Old 01-08-2011, 09:32 AM
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I was quite excited to see that Lumagen was offering a lower priced unit, but at $2000 MSRP? I'm not sure that's what people have been asking for...

Give me 1 input, and 1 output with many virtual inputs. $800. $1000 tops.

I don't need to scale or CMS 3D. It's great it does it, but that's not something I want to pay for.

Yes, I'm aware that this product doesn't seem to be a good fit for me--just disappointed as its not like Lumagen launches a new product each year.

My wait continues...
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post #18 of 1223 Old 01-08-2011, 09:42 AM
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"So with only 2 HDMI inputs and 1 out what makes this worth more than say the DUO?"

Look at past history of the two companies. Most likely In a year the DUO will be replaced by something else requiring more cash outlay to stay current and to gain features the Lumagen already has (3D processing). The Lumagen will still be supported.

For example:

I bought my Radiance in May 2007 for $4000.

At the time the top of the line DVDO was the iScan VP50 at $3000.

About half a year later the VP50 Pro came out which added noise reduction and some other image enhancement functions. This was $3500. I think you could get a $1600 trade in credit to move from the VP50 to VP50Pro so it would have been $1900 to add NR and the image enhancing functions. Total cost is now $4900.

Lumagen added the NR and image enhancement functions in December of 2007, free software upgrade. Total cost still $4000.


Lumagen were also working on adding the Primary color correction at this time… again free upgrade. Total cost still $4000.

Shortly thereafter they decided to go with Primary and Secondary correction using a 3D color matrix approach. Again… free upgrade… total cost $4000.

Can't get CMS on the DVD VP50Pro… have to move to the Duo. I don't recall what the cost of that was. Still at a total cost of $4900 or more.

Added Picture in Picture and Picture on Picture…. free upgrade. NA on DVDOs.

Added a re-interlacing function… free upgrade.

Added literally dozens (hundreds?) of other tweaks and changes to the processor… all free upgrades.

Lumagen just added 3D support with processing to the Lumagen. That was a $300 upgrade so total cost of $4300. Can't get this functionality on the DVDOs. When it does arrive it will likely be a new product so the total upgrade cost will only go up again.

The point being that the Lumagen's upfront cost might be a little higher, but it will have a longer active life being upgraded and the cost over that life of staying current is likely going to end up being less expensive.

All numbers above at list cost.

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post #19 of 1223 Old 01-08-2011, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

I bought my Radiance in May 2007 for $4000.

At the time the top of the line DVDO was the iScan VP50 at $3000.

About half a year later the VP50 Pro came out which added noise reduction and some other image enhancement functions. This was $3500. I think you could get a $1600 trade in credit to move from the VP50 to VP50Pro so it would have been $1900 to add NR and the image enhancing functions. Total cost is now $4900.

Lumagen added the NR and image enhancement functions in December of 2007, free software upgrade. Total cost still $4000.


Lumagen were also working on adding the Primary color correction at this time again free upgrade. Total cost still $4000.

Shortly thereafter they decided to go with Primary and Secondary correction using a 3D color matrix approach. Again free upgrade total cost $4000.

One thing that you are overlooking is that the original Radiance was HDMI 1.2. Lumagen did provide an upgrade path but your costs do not take this into consideration. Also, 3D was not a free upgrade.

Lumagens have always been premium products and priced that way. The Mini is not really any different.

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post #20 of 1223 Old 01-08-2011, 09:58 AM
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Lawguy,

I didn't mention that upgrade because I was giving my path with the Lumagen. I did not bother with that upgrade. 3D is still available with the Radiance XD and I included that cost in the numbers above as I upgraded my Radiance to 3D.

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post #21 of 1223 Old 01-08-2011, 12:20 PM
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I want a VP to be my "backbone" of my set up where everything can go into it. I admit using the Oppo 93 I bypass my Duo and go straight to my PJ. Having 8 HDMI inputs (not to mention 2 outs) and other various inputs and outputs allow it to be that. I am not saying this new "thing" from lumagen is a bad idea. It's just for a msrp of 1995.00 most will be hard pressed to pull the trigger. And if they are trying to use 3D as the main reason they will be lucky to sell a dozen of these. Vps are already on the endangered species list and this high msrp product certainly does not help matters. Anyone remember the Denon VP and how much we sold those for?

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post #22 of 1223 Old 01-08-2011, 12:31 PM
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I didn`t do the HDMI upgrade either, not needed by me but I did do the 3D beta upgrade. And the $1395 price goes away on the 31st. No way this thing is every going to be that low again. How many DVDOs would have had to buy over the years to get what the Randiances do today say starting with a Radiance XD. And do the DVDOs do 3D? Now I am not dithing Anchor Bay but they just don`t offer the support and free upgrades that Lumagen offers. The DVDO is not bad value for the money but the extra that a Lumagen costs offers a virtual lifetime of not wishing you had bought something else when it doesn`t do something you want in the future. ESPN 3D goes 24/7 valentines day. Called up Lumagen. They will have a free upgrade to change 720p side by side output by ESPN that is not consistent with 3D displaty standards to an output that is. Cost? NADA. Let me know when DVDO will offer a free upgrade to do that.

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post #23 of 1223 Old 01-08-2011, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

And the $1395 price goes away on the 31st. No way this thing is every going to be that low again.

can this be used with no calibration? or do all Video Processors need calibration for good PQ?

seems like a good deal to me. worth the extra $400 for the 3D I guess.

are there any non-3d models at $1000 that will be significantly better than this one?
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post #24 of 1223 Old 01-08-2011, 03:39 PM
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can this be used with no calibration? or do all Video Processors need calibration for good PQ?

seems like a good deal to me. worth the extra $400 for the 3D I guess.

are there any non-3d models at $1000 that will be significantly better than this one?

The Radiance gives you great controls that allow you to calibrate pretty much any way you want. You don't have to use them but that is like saying that you don't have to cut anything with that knife you just bought. It kind of makes little sense to own one if you are not going to use it for its intended purpose.

I guess that there are other features though. The video processing features work without any calibration.

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post #25 of 1223 Old 01-09-2011, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

You might like a touch of the Lumagen's NR and adaptive contrast control. Used lightly I think they can improve the picture. The sharpening filters if used to light amounts can sometimes benefit too. Keep in mind the Lumagen's controls are much finer granularity then what the Edge has. For Sharpening it has controls for horizontal sharpness, vertical sharpness, diagonal sharpness and vertical, horizontal and diagonal controls for texture as well. I think the range of those controls is 0-31. For NR you have 3D, MNR and BAR.

As I said before, I don't see the need to add extra sharpening with my exisiting controls (Edge or in the projector itself). To me it's like using tone controls on an amp; I just prefer not to do it. As long as there is no softening going on, then the controls are left at 0, which works fine with my particular display. Also I've never felt the need or desire to want to use NR on BluRays...if there is film grain on the disc, then so be it. I generally seem to watch newer films rather than the older classics, so whether this has any bearing on the matter I don't know.

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I think the scaling in the Lumagen beats the Edge. Do you leave your ISCO in place all the time or just slide it in for 2.35? I use an ISCO II as well but leave it in place all the time so the scaling of the Lumagen is always being used.

Shawn

I can see a slight difference between the Edge and the projector, but only on test patterns, so my concern here is paying for something I can't really see on film content rather than test patterns. I only use the Isco II if the film is 2.35:1, therefore the horizontal squeeze is only used for the menus and trailers. I don't believe in throwing away the resolution for rare 16:9 films I do watch, so the lens isn't used for these however good the scaling is.

As LovingDVD and I agreed on another thread, there doesn't seem to be much point in me getting the Mini3D due my usage patterns and requirements. Although it's probably a dirty word on a Lumagen thread, my Edge is good enough for use I need, likewise the VideoEQ Pro (which to be fair measures perfectly since my last calibration).

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #26 of 1223 Old 01-09-2011, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

As LovingDVD and I agreed on another thread, there doesn't seem to be much point in me getting the Mini3D due my usage patterns and requirements. Although it's probably a dirty word on a Lumagen thread, my Edge is good enough for use I need, likewise the VideoEQ Pro (which to be fair measures perfectly since my last calibration).

I feel the same. I get more than enough features in my Duo plus I send Blu ray straight to my 90ES. Give me a "mini" Radiance with about as many inputs (and outs) as the Duo then we will talk. Oh and don't forget to price it competively...

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post #27 of 1223 Old 01-09-2011, 01:20 PM
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This is a different class of video processor then you are comparing it with. You can confirm this for yourself on various threads.

We consistently have people tell us the image through the Radiance is "like a veil was lifted" when compared to other processors and internal scalers. People tell us the Radiance is the only processor they would consider for an anamorphic lens because of our No-Ring(TM) scaling.

We consistently have people tell us that the Radiance calibration results are much better. Our linear-Gamma 3D RGB color palette is certainly mathematically the correct way to do CMS, verses what others do.

We consistently have people telling us we have the only processor with the specific setup features needed for advanced installs.

We consistently have people telling us we have the best support. Certainly we provide the most frequent updates and the most feature enhancements over time.

If you are happy with what you have that’s great, but there’s a reason many have traded-in their non-Lumagen video processors for a Radiance processor. Some have even said they were "penny wise and dollar foolish" buying another processor. The Radiance costs more, but the quality is worth it to our customers.

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post #28 of 1223 Old 01-09-2011, 02:07 PM
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I appreciate that you must be proud of your products and I know from the time I had my HDQ that the support is great. I also realise that for some setups the Lumagen range may prove very useful and flexible (especially for those using 720p, 1080i or 576/480i from multiple sources). However, I'm less convinced that a 'veil' could be lifted when not upscaling, deinterlacing or otherwise processing a 1080/24p signal as in my case. In fact not having any VP in the chain might be more likely to remove any 'veil' as such really were it not for the inconvienience of not being able to switch sources.

There are a number of possible directions my setup could go in to further improve it's picture and sound quality, so I need to objectively deceide what this device may or may not bring to my setup. If the only real tangable improvement would be due to the better scaling for use with the lens, then that's a hard sell given that I can only just see the difference between the projector and my current scaler on static test patterns: This might be a limitation of my projector, lens or general setup perhaps, so changing the VP might not be my best option in this case.

The dealer that I intend to buy my Oppo 93/95 from is also a Lumagen dealer so I would be able to have a demo of the Mini3D quite soon, but I wanted to try to consider this upgrade in the cold light of day first. I reckon it'll cost me about £500 for this upgrade after selling on the existing two boxes, so it's not a massive amount of money, but it would pay for the Oppo 93 for example. I have to be realistic in accepting that I may already be seeing the best (or at least very diminishing returns of improvement) my HD350 and Isco II will allow regardless of VP and perhaps upgrading to an X7 in the future might be a more cost effective solution (the VEQ wouldn't be required then either so could be factored into the cost).

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post #29 of 1223 Old 01-09-2011, 04:08 PM
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Kelvin:

Of course with 1080p24 in and out our scaling is off, and does not have an effect. Still, better calibration can, and does, have an effect for HD sources.

Only you can determine if the improvemnt is enough to justify the cost, but I can say we have a number of people who have bitten-the-bullet and upgraded to a Radiance and have commented on how glad they are that they upgraded. This is true for people with similar setups/requirements to yours.

I think you will find our scaling for 480, 576, 720 - and anamorphic - is a nice step up from what you have now.

Hope you get the demo and like what you see. Thanks for your candid comments.

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post #30 of 1223 Old 01-09-2011, 04:34 PM
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Thanks for your comments Jim, I think I've got all I can from this thread at the moment, so don't want to drag it any more off topic so to speak. Thinking about it I could probably take my Isco with me to the dealer to check the anamorphic scaling side of things, even if I'm otherwise happy with the VEQ's CMS solution...one box does simplify my setup which is another consideration.

A quick question, does changing the V-stretch from H-Squeeze happen without any 'info' bars appearing (I don't like the big yellow info box when the Edge does this) and does it 'jump' or smoothy change from one shape to the next?

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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