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post #1 of 22 Old 08-25-2011, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
 
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10 years ago I bought an iScan Pro. Since then I've upgraded over the years and always had an external VP. But now that onboard video processing has improved I'm wondering if I should do away with using an external VP.

I recently replaced an Edge with a Duo - the main reason for this was CMS and the ability to control it via RS232. But now that I realise how much I'd have to spend to make use of CMS, it's something I'll probably never use.

I've mainly been using the Edge/Duo for HDMI switching, to change Brightness/Contrast, adjust the sound delay and to force 4:3 for older DVD's and a few Sky channels. I do have PreP enabled for Sky, but can't say that I really watch much TV anyway.

I have an Onkyo 5508 with the Reon-VX video processing, but this might be replaced by a 5509 with the Vida VHD1900. I use a Projector and have a 70" screen, so it's not huge but I do sit fairly close.

For the last 3 years I've not had to take picture through my AVR/Pre-Pro, but my equipment is moving into another room - which means I'll have to rely on the OSD's and overlays to check/adjust settings etc. So as the Pre-Pro has all the above adjustments (although no PreP) I wondered if it might be worth considering removing the Duo.

I'm not quite in a position to test it for myself right now, so wondered if anyone had any advice or opinions please?
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post #2 of 22 Old 08-25-2011, 09:54 AM
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If you could make use of the DUO's CMS(Getting ISF calibration) then it would be wel worth keeping as I doubt Onkyo will provide A Full implemented CMS in 5509..

I think you may be suprised to see what difference A calibrated optimally set up Video chain can produce..
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post #3 of 22 Old 08-25-2011, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

If you could make use of the DUO's CMS(Getting ISF calibration) then it would be wel worth keeping as I doubt Onkyo will provide A Full implemented CMS in 5509..

I think you may be suprised to see what difference A calibrated optimally set up Video chain can produce..

The problem is the cost of making use of the Duo's CMS. Trying to do it on the cheap doesn't sound like it's going to be worth it, so I'd have to spend a lot of money and hope that it would be worth it. I wouldn't pay someone to do ISF calibration, but if I did then the 5508/5509 can be ISF calibrated.

So, as video calibration is pretty much out of the window, I'm just looking at what to do about keeping or selling the iScan Duo. In all honesty, I'm very happy with the picture performance I have now. I have seen a properly calibrated system, but just not in my room. So there isn't really a way to compare.

While I understand the benefits of video calibration, I'm still not convinced that DVD's and Blu-Rays are all mastered to the same specs. So a single calibration for a source where there is such variation in the viewing material seems like it would be practically impossible. But I suppose that is a debate for another thread.
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post #4 of 22 Old 08-25-2011, 10:38 AM
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The CMS on the DUO made a HUGE difference on the image from my Epson 6100, much better than I could ever achieve with Epson alone.
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post #5 of 22 Old 08-25-2011, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

The CMS on the DUO made a HUGE difference on the image from my Epson 6100, much better than I could ever achieve with Epson alone.

But what did you have to buy to be able to use the CMS of the Duo though?
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post #6 of 22 Old 08-25-2011, 11:22 AM
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The thing is besides the obvious A calibrator is only as good as the tools he/she has to work with in the video chain..

You need more than Brightness Contrast, 2point Grayscale ect , An Onkyo Pre Pro doesn't contain the necessary tools required to get you any where near to the desired result compared to the Duo's CMS...

Simply put no PRE Pro has the adjustments required if you wanted to rely on that alone compared to the DUO no mater the skill level of the Calibrator..
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post #7 of 22 Old 08-25-2011, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

The thing is besides the obvious A calibrator is only as good as the tools he/she has to work with in the video chain..

You need more than Brightness Contrast, 2point Grayscale ect , An Onkyo Pre Pro doesn't contain the necessary tools required to get you any where near to the desired result compared to the Duo's CMS...

Simply put no PRE Pro has the adjustments required if you wanted to rely on that alone compared to the DUO no mater the skill level of the Calibrator..

Which is why I've decided to stick to the the basics and no longer look at more advanced video calibration.

So putting video calibration and CMS aside, the main reason for the thread is to work out if I will miss the Duo and notice a difference in picture quality.
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post #8 of 22 Old 08-25-2011, 12:08 PM
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arr Understood, Sorry mjf-uk I was referring to your quote below with my above post.

"but if I did then the 5508/5509 can be ISF calibrated."
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post #9 of 22 Old 08-25-2011, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

arr Understood, Sorry mjf-uk I was referring to your quote below with my above post.

"but if I did then the 5508/5509 can be ISF calibrated."

That's okay, your reply still helps a lot - as I now understand that the 5508/5509 cannot be used in the same way that the Duo could be for video calibration. But chances are that my next Projector will be better equipped though, should I decide to look at video calibration at some point in the future.

There's still a chance I'll hold on to the Duo, I just need to work out if I'm really getting any benefit from how I make use of it.
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post #10 of 22 Old 08-25-2011, 02:19 PM
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I just bought an Integra DCH 80.2 to replace a DVDO Iscan Duo and Anthem MRX500 combo.

The days of the outboard scalar are numbered. The 80.2 is isf certified and has a LOT of adjustments in it.

The only reason I can think of to keep my Duo is for the 3D pass through feature. If I ever upgrade my projector in my theater room, I'll need the Duo to send a 3D video signal to the projector, and the audio to my Anthem AVM50v.

I'm assuming that's what this 3D pass through feature will do. Otherwise, I should probably sell the Duo.

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post #11 of 22 Old 08-25-2011, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by FerretHunter View Post

I just bought an Integra DCH 80.2 to replace a DVDO Iscan Duo and Anthem MRX500 combo.

Have you noticed any difference in quality since this change?
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post #12 of 22 Old 08-25-2011, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

But what did you have to buy to be able to use the CMS of the Duo though?

I already had an i1 Display LT, and have used the free Color HFCR program. I have since purchased ChromaPure , the Auto-calibrate addon and have ordered the i1 Display 3 Pro for ChromaPure.

Did I need ChromaPure? or the Display 3? Not really....but I love my hobby, and I don't mind spending money for the best calibration tools I can afford.

In fact, DUO or no DUO, you need some kind of measurement device in order to accurate set your greyscale, gamma and primary/secondary colors, regardless of your display device. Even if your display has a full CMS, they don't all work correctly. The CMS in the DUO does, and has MUCH finer controls than most. In my case, the DUO works wonders.
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post #13 of 22 Old 08-25-2011, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

I already had an i1 Display LT, and have used the free Color HFCR program. I have since purchased ChromaPure , the Auto-calibrate addon and have ordered the i1 Display 3 Pro for ChromaPure.

Did I need ChromaPure? or the Display 3? Not really....but I love my hobby, and I don't mind spending money for the best calibration tools I can afford.

In fact, DUO or no DUO, you need some kind of measurement device in order to accurate set your greyscale, gamma and primary/secondary colors, regardless of your display device. Even if your display has a full CMS, they don't all work correctly. The CMS in the DUO does, and has MUCH finer controls than most. In my case, the DUO works wonders.

Having not seen what some basic tools can achieve in my room with my equipment and also being warned about most likely not getting worthwhile results from basic equipment, it's difficult for me to justify the expense.

It seems that the new i1D3 is more likely to give better results for the extra money, so that would most likely be what I would aim for. But as money is a little tight at the moment, I think I'll work towards a new Projector before I consider looking any further into calibration.

My 4 year old Projector still impresses me quite often, so either my preference is way off or the settings have never been too far off to be enjoyed. I do remember seeing a very in-depth review for my Projector that said the settings out of the box were pretty impressive and only needed slight adjustment to get pretty accurate results.
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post #14 of 22 Old 08-25-2011, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

Having not seen what some basic tools can achieve in my room with my equipment and also being warned about most likely not getting worthwhile results from basic equipment, it's difficult for me to justify the expense.

It seems that the new i1D3 is more likely to give better results for the extra money, so that would most likely be what I would aim for. But as money is a little tight at the moment, I think I'll work towards a new Projector before I consider looking any further into calibration.

My 4 year old Projector still impresses me quite often, so either my preference is way off or the settings have never been too far off to be enjoyed. I do remember seeing a very in-depth review for my Projector that said the settings out of the box were pretty impressive and only needed slight adjustment to get pretty accurate results.

Proper calibration, even with a "meager" meter such as the i1 Display 2 LT, can make a world of difference with most displays. When your greyscale, gamma, and color is accurately calibrated, you can really tell the difference.
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post #15 of 22 Old 08-26-2011, 12:09 PM
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If either of you are looking to sell your iScan Duo, let me know. I could use a second one, but cannot justify the full retail price for a new one.

chexi1@yahoo.com.
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post #16 of 22 Old 08-26-2011, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by chexi1 View Post

If either of you are looking to sell your iScan Duo, let me know. I could use a second one, but cannot justify the full retail price for a new one.

chexi1@yahoo.com.

I sure as hell ain't
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post #17 of 22 Old 08-26-2011, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerretHunter View Post

I just bought an Integra DCH 80.2 to replace a DVDO Iscan Duo and Anthem MRX500 combo.

The days of the outboard scalar are numbered. The 80.2 is isf certified and has a LOT of adjustments in it.

The settings in the Integra and the CMS in the Duo are really not comparable in terms of what they can do. There are some very coarse adjustments in the Onkyo/Integra units (brightness, contrast, single gamma adjustment) but only a 2D CMS setting for the primary colors, and no secondary colors, much less any control over colorspace.

When I had the Onkyo version of the Integra 80.2 around, I completely disabled the video processing because it offers no control over colorspace selection, or deep color support, and it actually strips away fine chroma resolution by doing an unnecessary colorspace conversion step internally, which is something an actual CMS would never do.

Processors and receivers keep adding features, but at the moment they aren't even comparable to what a CMS can do, an in fact can wind up hurting the image in cases like this.

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Senior Editor, Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity, www.hometheaterhifi.com
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post #18 of 22 Old 08-26-2011, 01:45 PM
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I was referring to the OP and Ferrethunter.
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post #19 of 22 Old 08-27-2011, 05:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by chexi1 View Post

If either of you are looking to sell your iScan Duo, let me know. I could use a second one, but cannot justify the full retail price for a new one.

chexi1@yahoo.com.

Once shipping costs and currency conversion etc are included, it would be approaching the retail price of the Duo in the US anyway.
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post #20 of 22 Old 08-27-2011, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I appreciate the comments about video calibration and CMS etc, but what I'm really trying to work out is if de-interlacing and scaling is going to be much different.

From what I believe, ABT's de-interlacing is excellent but their scaling isn't that great. HQV's de-interlacing isn't quite on par with ABT, but they make up for it with slightly better scaling. So while there is some give and take, I am hopnig it will pretty much even out.

The only thing missing would be PreP, but in all honesty I have never really noticed any improvement using it on Sky channels anyway.
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post #21 of 22 Old 08-28-2011, 07:55 AM
 
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OPer I think you would be making a mistake by removing the VP. With the new Display 3 Pro probe and Chromapure ($560) you can calibrate your projector. You will also need a PC and tripod. The new probe is fast, accurate and cheap compared to the cost of a good probe in the past. This probe is also sealed so it will not drift near as fast as the probes that this replaced. A fully calibrated image will bring a big improvement to your HT. The lack of a VP is what keeps many people from getting into calibration. Owning a VP should make this an easy choice. The software is not complicated to use.
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post #22 of 22 Old 08-28-2011, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

OPer I think you would be making a mistake by removing the VP. With the new Display 3 Pro probe and Chromapure ($560) you can calibrate your projector. You will also need a PC and tripod. The new probe is fast, accurate and cheap compared to the cost of a good probe in the past. This probe is also sealed so it will not drift near as fast as the probes that this replaced. A fully calibrated image will bring a big improvement to your HT. The lack of a VP is what keeps many people from getting into calibration. Owning a VP should make this an easy choice. The software is not complicated to use.

Thanks for your input, but I've already decided to sell the Duo. I know that the i1D3 Pro has improved on things as far as price vs performance is concerned, but it's still too expensive for me to consider at this stage - on top of having to pay more for these things in the UK.

I'll see what improvement a Projector upgrade brings next year and take things from there.
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