My new project: QDEO vs HQV Vida vs Reon 1080p upscaling - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 48 Old 05-03-2012, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi all.
It has been years since I last posted here. I just graduated from college, so I was busy for a whiles.

Anyways, for years, I have been using a Samsung BD-UP5000 BD/HD-DVD player to watch my blu-rays and DVDs (particularly anime). I love the de-interlacing and 1080p upscaling this player does on DVDs (it uses an HQV Reon chip). It noticeably outperformed my Oppo 981HD upscaling DVD player (which used Faroudja's DCDi).

However, Samsung firmware updates are few and far between, so the player can only handle about 70% of the blu-ray discs I own.

So, I first bought an LG BD630 player that says it does 1080p upscaling. I like it as a BD player, but it sucks for upscaling DVDs.

I noticed that modern AVRs have built-in upscalers in them, so I figured I would try that route out. (My old Pioneer VSX-D608 receiver needed an upgrade anyways.)

So, a week ago I bought the Onkyo TX-NR609 which uses the QDEO Kyoto G2H upscaler. At $330, I could not resist. (note that the current Oppo BD players use the QDEO Kyoto G2) As far as I can tell, the only difference between the QDEO Kyoto G2 and G2H is that G2H supports 4k upscaling.

Then I saw that Best Buy dropped the price on the Onkyo TX-NR809 from $1099 to $699. It is similar to the 609, except that rather than relying on the QDEO to upscale material to 1080p and then from 1080p to 4K, the 809 uses the HQV Vida1900 for dedicated upscaling to 1080p and the QDEO for just upscaling 1080p to 4K. It is also ISF certified.

So, now I own both Onkyos and figure I will do comparisons of their deinterlacing and 1080p upscaling performance. (I don't care about 4K right now). I will also compare it to the Samsung BD-UP5000's HQV Reon performance connected directly to my TV.

For video sources, I am planning on using:
* for DVDs: Samsung BD-UP5000 (since I can set its output to 480i as well as 1080p),
* for LDs: Pioneer CLD-1090

I am really curious how the QDEO compares to the HQV Vida. I plan on posting my results. I would appreciate any suggestions people have on this little project of mine.

First, I am planning on getting ISF calibrator Jim Doolittle to do my new graduation gift (a Sharp Aquos LC-60LE835U TV).

More updates as things start happening.
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post #2 of 48 Old 05-04-2012, 03:13 AM
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I had the 5000up. I now have bdp2550 with hqv reon(same generation as 5000up). Integra drs 8.8 hd dvd player( toshiba xa2 clone) with hqv reon. Lg bh200 with marvel qdeo. I had a pioneer 09 with qdeo. Yamaha rxa3000 receiver with hqv vida. I also had a denon 3800 with hqv realta.
I always like the qdeo player better. Hqv units were a bit sharper but qdeo looked smooth and film like. I use my lg bh200 as my reference dvd and bd player. I am looking to add an oppo 95 as I need sacd and dvd a playback now
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post #3 of 48 Old 05-06-2012, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I just got my 60" Sharp LED TV calibrated. Yay! My colors, blacks and whites look amazing.

Regarding testing the upscalers:
So far, I have started looking at anime DVD, with subtitles turned on.

One of the reasons I bought the Samsung BD-UP5000 BD/HD-DVD player years ago was that its HQV Reon chip made subtitles look much more smooth than the Oppo 981HD upscaling DVD player (which used Faroudja's DCDi)

Using Gundam Seed DVD 12, I have noticed that the HQV Vida1900 in my Onkyo TX-NR809 to slightly outperform both the QDEO Kyoto G2H in my Onkyo TX-NR609 and the HQV Reon in my Samsung BD-UP5000, when it came to subtitle smoothness during 1080p upscaling.

The Onkyo 609 and the Samsung BD-UP5000 subtitle performances were harder to distinguish.

I am going to try some other DVDs. I think the haystacks in Star Trek Insurrection might be good DVD source material.


So, right now, my rankings are as follows for 1080p upscaling/deinterlacing:
1.) HQV Vida1900 (Onkyo 809 receiver)
2.) Tie between QDEO Kyoto G2H (Onkyo 609 receiver) and HQV Reon (Samsung BD-UP5000 player)

More updates as I continue testing.
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post #4 of 48 Old 05-07-2012, 02:08 AM
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I would be very interested in knowing how good is TX-NR609 in terms of PAL (576i, 1080i) material deinterlacing. Planning to buy TX-NR579 solely for this purpose...
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post #5 of 48 Old 05-08-2012, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I started using the Star Trek: Insurrection DVD (haystack scenes) to stress-test de-interlacing and upscaling.

So far, the Onkyo TX-NR809 receiver's HQV Vida1900 did the best job, feeding it a 480i signal.

#2 was the Samsung BD-UP5000 (using the HQV Reon), letting the player do its own upscaling.

#3 was the Onkyo TX-NR609 using the QDEO Kyoto G2H, again feeding it a 480i signal... though we did notice some slight rainbowing in the haystacks.

#4 was the Panasonic DMP-BD210 3D player (using Panasonic's proprietary P4HD upscaling) had the most jagged haystacks, but did not have the rainbowing witnessed on the Onkyo 609.

I think this difference between the Onkyo 809 and 609 is that I used an S-video cable input for the 809, versus a yellow cable for the 609. (The 609 lacks S-video inputs).

Another note: The Samsung BD-UP5000 lets you output 480i, but when you select that option, you get a message that says that it will output 480p via hdmi and 480i via component.

So, now I am hunting for a DVD player with 480i out via hdmi for a more fairer test.

However, I am pleased to see that the 809 upscaling a 480i signal from an S-video DVD source outperformed the Samsung Duo player outputting 1080p. I cannot wait to see the 809 upscale a 480i signal from an hdmi source.
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post #6 of 48 Old 05-08-2012, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Did a quick test of Star Trek Insurrection DVD on my friend's Oppo 83, which uses an Anchor Bay chip (same as in DVDO Edge, I think).

It did a good job, but think that the Onkyo 809 was a bit better.
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post #7 of 48 Old 05-08-2012, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nakoruru View Post

I think this difference between the Onkyo 809 and 609 is that I used an S-video cable input for the 809, versus a yellow cable for the 609. (The 609 lacks S-video inputs).

So, now I am hunting for a DVD player with 480i out via hdmi for a more fairer test.

Feeding processors different signals makes this "test" useless... First of all you shall start with getting a DVD outputting HDMI so that the signal is sent out untouched.
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post #8 of 48 Old 05-08-2012, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radosuaf View Post

Feeding processors different signals makes this "test" useless... First of all you shall start with getting a DVD outputting HDMI so that the signal is sent out untouched.

Indeed....the Yellow cable he talks about is probably COMPOSITE video. That's why there is rainbow in haystacks. It's not a scaling or de-interlacing artefact it's a tv decoder artefact.

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post #9 of 48 Old 05-08-2012, 11:12 AM
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are using the Qedo 2 or 1 chip. The 2 is in the new Oppo 93?

Just wondering thanks.

David

"You buy a Ferrari when you want to be somebody. You buy a Lamborghini when you are somebody." - Frank Sinatra
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post #10 of 48 Old 05-08-2012, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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The Oppo 93 and 95 use the QDEO Kyoto G2 (88DE2750).

The Onkyo 609 ues the QDEO Kyoto G2H (88DE2755) for upscaling to 1080p, and then from 1080p to 4K if you have a 4K device.

The Onkyo 809 uses the HQV Vida1900 for upscaling to 1080p, then the QDEO Kyoto G2H to upscale 1080p to 4K if you have a 4K display.
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post #11 of 48 Old 05-08-2012, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post

Indeed....the Yellow cable he talks about is probably COMPOSITE video. That's why there is rainbow in haystacks. It's not a scaling or de-interlacing artefact it's a tv decoder artefact.


I realize that.
That is why I am shopping around for a DVD player with 2 hdmi outputs that both handle 480i.

I considered using the Oppo 83 to do this test, but a friend of mine suggested I don't, since the primary hdmi output on the Oppo 83 has an Anchor Bay processor, while the other hdmi output he said was some cheap thing that might not making the Oppo 83 a fair device regarding getting the same quality 480i signal from both hdmi outputs.

So, I am trying to shop around doing some research to find a dvd player that can output 2 identical 480i signals.
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post #12 of 48 Old 05-08-2012, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nakoruru View Post

I considered using the Oppo 83 to do this test, but a friend of mine suggested I don't, since the primary hdmi output on the Oppo 83 has an Anchor Bay processor, while the other hdmi output he said was some cheap thing that might not making the Oppo 83 a fair device regarding getting the same quality 480i signal from both hdmi outputs.

FWIW, I disagree with your friend since the Oppo is one of the few players out there where you can turn off the secondary video processor (Anchor Bay in the -83, and Qdeo in the -93) and output "source direct." HDMI #2 on both Oppo players is essentially the "raw" feed from the decoder and is not some "cheap thing."

I would also suggest grabbing DVD & Blu Ray test discs that contain specific test patterns (example, not an endorsement). Obviously we don't normally watch test patterns but they can expose a poorly implemented video processor, or more typically a poorly executed implementation of a video processor by a receiver/player OEM.
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post #13 of 48 Old 05-08-2012, 05:19 PM
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I second that. The Oppo players are great TRANSPORTS.

But HDMI aside, even 480i through component is MUCH closer to HDMI that your current setups with s-video or even composite.
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post #14 of 48 Old 05-08-2012, 10:16 PM - Thread Starter
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One of my best friends has an Oppo 83, and since it has 2 hdmi outputs that can do 480i over hdmi, we will give that a try for testing.

As a reminder, this little project of mine is to see how well an AVR can compete with a high-end upscaling player like the Oppos.

I would just buy an Oppo 93 or 95 if I was only concerned with DVDs and BDs, but I also have thousands of LDs for anime titles that have not made their way to DVD or BD format yet. (note that I have usually replaced LDs when a show is released on a newer format).

And, since I needed a new receiver anyways, I figured it would be interesting to see how an all-in-one AVR solution would do.

One buddy of mine uses a DVDO-Edge VP50 for his deinteracinng/upscaling of SD content (mostly LDs), uses an Oppo 93 for BD and DVD, and has a good audio receiver, and admittedly, I could go the route of dedicated upscalers like this buddy of mine. But, given that I cannot afford to build a $75K home theater (with a 100 inch screen) the way my buddy did, I am at least going to try out how good a modern, affordable upscaling AVR can compete.

I remember spending $1000 a few years back for the Samsung BD-UP5000 and witnessing it crush my Oppo DV-981HD. I still use the Samsung for my DVD watching. (Jim Doolittle, who calibrated 3 of my TVs, owns 2 of the BD-UP5000 , btw).

I plan on testing 480i signals via HDMI, s-video, component and composite, to see how well the QDEO Kyoto-G2H and HQV Vida1900 in the Onkyo receivers (609 and 809, respectively) deinterlace, upscale, and output via HDMI to my 60" TV.

If the AVR results beat my Samsung BD-UP5000, then at least it is an upgrade for my DVD watching and dramatically enhances my LD viewing enjoyment. I would give the AVR a thumbs up.

If it beats my one friend's Oppo 83.... 2 thumbs up.

If it matches or beat my buddy's Oppo 93... then it is 2 thumbs up plus a stiffy in my pants.

So far, I am already at 1 thumb up just using a DVD connected to the Onkyo 809 via s-video, and I cannot wait to see how it looks connected via 480i over HDMI from my friend's Oppo 83.
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post #15 of 48 Old 05-08-2012, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluechunks View Post

FWIW, I disagree with your friend since the Oppo is one of the few players out there where you can turn off the secondary video processor (Anchor Bay in the -83, and Qdeo in the -93) and output "source direct." HDMI #2 on both Oppo players is essentially the "raw" feed from the decoder and is not some "cheap thing."

I would also suggest grabbing DVD & Blu Ray test discs that contain specific test patterns (example, not an endorsement). Obviously we don't normally watch test patterns but they can expose a poorly implemented video processor, or more typically a poorly executed implementation of a video processor by a receiver/player OEM.


I have the HQV Benchmark 2.0 DVD and BD versions.
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post #16 of 48 Old 05-08-2012, 10:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I just wanted to take a moment to thank all those of you who have written suggestions and comments to this thread, and to those who private messaged me as well.

I consider myself an AV newbie, but am surrounded by a few friends who are more knowledgeable than me, have higher-end equipment, and earn way more money than me.

So, for me, this thread is all about trying to get the most bang for my buck, as well as educate myself more on this sort of stuff.

Plus, since companies like Onkyo and Pioneer tout that their AVRs do upscaling... I wanted to find out for myself how much is just empty sales jargon, and how much is real.

Thanks again to everyone who has taken an interest in my little project.
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post #17 of 48 Old 05-09-2012, 02:43 AM
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Can you get anything in 576i?
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post #18 of 48 Old 05-12-2012, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radosuaf View Post

Can you get anything in 576i?

No idea. I am using 480i material for my test material since I am in the US.
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post #19 of 48 Old 05-12-2012, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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So, visually, I am at the 2 thumbs up mark (based on my scale mentioned in an earlier post) regarding the Onkyo 809.

Discovered 1 issue though. The 809's Adyssey audio calibration system is not working properly. (It works on my Onkyo 609), so I might need to return this 809 to get replaced.
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post #20 of 48 Old 05-14-2012, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nakoruru View Post

No idea. I am using 480i material for my test material since I am in the US.

The same problem again and again - majority of video processors is made in the NTSC area and nobody tests them in PAL. Then we buy them in Europe and we're disappointed... Too bad. None of the test discs contain PAL material?
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post #21 of 48 Old 05-15-2012, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nakoruru View Post

So, visually, I am at the 2 thumbs up mark (based on my scale mentioned in an earlier post) regarding the Onkyo 809.

Discovered 1 issue though. The 809's Audyssey audio calibration system is not working properly. (It works on my Onkyo 609), so I might need to return this 809 to get replaced.

I have an 809 as well. I agree with the performance of the HQV Vida chip, I'm very satisfied (seems to be the general consensus in the 809 thread as well)What's wrong with your Audyssey?? Did you call Onkyo?

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post #22 of 48 Old 05-16-2012, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_One View Post

I have an 809 as well. I agree with the performance of the HQV Vida chip, I'm very satisfied (seems to be the general consensus in the 809 thread as well)What's wrong with your Audyssey?? Did you call Onkyo?


Got Audyssey to work finally. On the 809, you need to run Audyssey BEFORE entering any speaker config info via the settings. If you tell it anything (like you are using tower front speakers), Audyssey will hang. (I discovered this behavior by accident). So, I did the Onkyo hard reset, erasing all my settings (but keeping the upgraded firmware) and ran Audyssey first. Audyssey worked, calculated speaker distances, etc. All I needed to do was change the front speakers to full-band afterwards.
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post #23 of 48 Old 05-16-2012, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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My Toshiba BDX2250 just arrived from Amazon.

It is a wi-fi BD player.... however, I will only use it for DVDs.
I bought this Toshiba because it supports 480i via HDMI.

None of my other BD players supports that (they can do 480p, but not 480i over HDMI), so my existing players would not be able to truly test the HQV Vida's deinterlacing of SD material over HDMI.

Up til now, I was testing 480i deinterlacing/upscaling via component. WOW, what a difference 480i via HDMI makes.

DVD via 480i component to the Onkyo 809 did a fine job (doing slightly better than my Samsung BD-UP5000' built-in HQV Reon, from what could see).

DVD via 480i HDMI from the Toshiba to the 809 was way better!

I am truly impressed and happy with my purchases.

DVD playback on the Toshiba with 480i over HDMI to the Onkyo 809 (using the HQV Vida1900) is amazing... rivaling and possibly outclassing the latest Oppo players, while offering deinterlacing and upscaling to other devices with the Onkyo's 8 inputs.
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post #24 of 48 Old 05-16-2012, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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In total, this project cost me (in recent purchases)

$700 + tax: Onkyo 809
$330 + tax: Onkyo 609
$70 + tax: Panasonic DMP-BDT-210
plus some money for 1.4 HDMI cables, a 60" LED TV, and professional calibration.

Additionally, I already owned a Samsung BD-UP5000, a Panasonic DMR-E30, an LG BD630, and a Pioneer CLD-1090 laserdisc player.
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post #25 of 48 Old 05-16-2012, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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If you already have a good audio receiver and only watch BDs and DVDs, get the Oppo 93. It will only cost you $500.


However, if you need a new audio receiver, an HDMI switch, and want to watch DVDs, LDs, and possibly other SD sources amazingly upscaled/deinterlaced, go for the Onkyo 809. It is an audio receiver and high-end video processor (with 8 inputs) all rolled up into a nice, price-effective $700 package.

For me, I currently have 2 BD players (1 dedicated to BDs, the other for DVDs) and a high-end laptop attached via HDMI, an LD player connected via composite (since LD video is in composite format), and a DVD recorder attached via component (for testing purposes) to the Onkyo 809.... with 3 inputs to spare for things like game consoles. The 809 also has a phono input if you still have a record player, and 2 HDMI outputs (useful if you have a TV and a projector)

The 809 is sitting in my living room, with a 7.1 Klipsch speaker setup.


If the 809 is out of your price ranged, go for the 609. It has fewer inputs (6 total), lacks S-video support, has no phono input, has only 1 HDMI output, and uses the QDEO rather than the Vida... but the 609 is half the cost of the 809 and provides almost-as-good video processing.

My 609 is in my Sony 5.1 bedroom, with a laptop, BD player and PS3 attached via HDMI. I also have a combo VCR/DVD recorder attached to the 609 via component.

Both have USB inputs (1 on the 609, 2 on the 809) so you can attach your iPod and listen to your songs via the receiver's speakers.

Overall, based on the LDs and DVDs I have watched (subtitled anime, live action titles, some in 4:3, 16:9 and even wider).... I would give the 809 a score of 8.5 and the 609 a score of 8.0. (A score of 10 would equal Blu-Ray quality). For reference, I would give the Samsung BD-UP5000 player an 7.5 and the Oppo 981 upscaling DVD player a 6.0.

Left on my itinerary is test the identical media I have been watching on DVD to my friend's Oppo 83, and another friend's Oppo 93. My friend with the Oppo 93 is also considering buying a Lumagen... so it will be interesting to score and compare all these devices.
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post #26 of 48 Old 05-17-2012, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nakoruru View Post

Up til now, I was testing 480i deinterlacing/upscaling via component.

From reading your posts in this thread, I'm thinking you mean composite (yellow cable)? Big difference from component.
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post #27 of 48 Old 05-17-2012, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goes to 11 View Post

From reading your posts in this thread, I'm thinking you mean composite (yellow cable)? Big difference from component.


For the Pioneer CLD-1090 LD player, I switched from S-video to composite, since my calibration friend told me that LD video is composite format and the Onkyo would do a better job of comb filtering(?) than the LD player could via its S-video out.

For my DVD-recorder (that has no HDMI out), I switched to component out, based on a friend's recommendation that component out would likely give me better picture than the DVD-recorder's S-video or composite outs.

(Please feel free to correct me if any of that info I was told is incorrect).

Now that I have a BD player with 480i out over HDMI, I am treating that as my dedicated DVD player.... and it does look quite a lot better than DVDs did on my DVD-recorder deck with component cables.
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post #28 of 48 Old 05-17-2012, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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For my testing purposes, I have been using the following SD media:

LD:
-------------------------------------------
Vision of Escaflowne vol. 1 (Japanese import)
Titanic
True Lies
The Truman Show
The Cutting Edge
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DVDs:
------------------------------------------
Star Trek Insurrection
Mobile Suit Gundam Seed vol. 12 (US release, English subtitled)
Kurau Phantom Memory vol. 2 (US release, English subtitled)
Captain America (BD + DVD set)
Thor (BD + DVD set)
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Resident Evil 1 - 3 (I upgraded to the BD versions of the Resident Evil movies, so I like to flip back and forth between the DVD and BD player to compare. I also now own all the Star Trek movies on BD, making ST Insurrection a good DVD vs BD test media as well.)


While it is impossible to make a DVD look exactly as good as a BD, the 809 is doing a very good job.

The 609 also performs admirably, though I do notice slightly more blockiness on diagonal lines, particularly on subtitles, such as the letters "y", "o", and italicized "l") than on the 809.


I am slightly tempted to get a Pioneer receiver with an Anchor Bay upscaler, to also compare against. But I don't really need 3 receivers. My living room and bed room have good receivers now.... I suppose I could stick a receiver in my small home office (the realtor called it a 2nd bedroom..... but given its size, I would call it a walk-in closet)
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post #29 of 48 Old 05-18-2012, 01:44 PM
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Thanks nakoruru, this post is really helpful.

My english isn't very good, but I'm goint to try!!.


I got a Optoma HD33 1080p Projector (110-inch screen) and the upscaling is barely decent. I use the HD33 with PS3/Direct TV through Yamaha RX-V367 Receiver. Sadly it can't upscale, so I was thinking in upgrade to Onkyo 609/809.

Please, can you make a test with 720p content (PS3)?. I want to know if there's a major difference between 609/809 that worth the extra money

Thanks in advance.
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post #30 of 48 Old 05-22-2012, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adelquale View Post

Thanks nakoruru, this post is really helpful.

My english isn't very good, but I'm goint to try!!.


I got a Optoma HD33 1080p Projector (110-inch screen) and the upscaling is barely decent. I use the HD33 with PS3/Direct TV through Yamaha RX-V367 Receiver. Sadly it can't upscale, so I was thinking in upgrade to Onkyo 609/809.

Please, can you make a test with 720p content (PS3)?. I want to know if there's a major difference between 609/809 that worth the extra money

Thanks in advance.


Hi Adelquale,

The biggest feature differences between the 609 and 809 are really:
* HQV Vida1900 vs Marvell QDEO G2H for 1080p unscaling.
* The 809 has 135W per channel. The 609 has 100W per channel.
* The 809 has S-video inputs and a phono input. The 609 has neither.
* The 809 has 2 more HDMI inputs and 1 more HDMI output.
* The 809 has Audyssey MultiEQ XT vs the 609's Audyssey 2EQ.


The 809 is slightly better at deinterlacing/upscaling than the 609... but probably not enough to justify the 2x cost for your needs.

Note that since your source is a PS3 with 720p output, the receiver will not do any deinterlacing. It will simply do upscaling... specifically 1.5x upscaling. Basically, for each dimension, 2 incoming pixels from a 720p source will be displayed on a 1080p TV as 3 pixels, with your video processor guessing which of those 2 incoming pixels should fill in that 3rd pixel.

If you told your PS3 that the display attached is 1080p, the PS3 will do the upscaling for you and output a 1080p signal. In such a case, your receiver or TV will not do any upscaling work.
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