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post #1 of 24 Old 09-22-2012, 12:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, was wondering if anyone could help me out about a particular video processor manufactured by Micomsoft. I ordered it off Ebay, but it's coming from Europe so it will take a while to get here, and for $20, I figured what the hell, since my silicon optix image anyplace won't display 240p properly, I wouldn't have much to lose. I have these images attached to this post from the seller so you guys can look at it. It intrigued me because it looks almost like the Micomsoft Displ converter and upscaler, and was curious if maybe they might be related, and I have tried goggling it many times only to come up empty, so I thought maybe someone here might know something about it, how it performs, picture quality, and perhaps scanlines and whether they can be controlled or even turned on or off altogether. I'm sure the picture quality will diminish quiet a bit with my set-up since it will hook up to my ps1, and wii to a composite to scart adapter, then to scart coupler, since I can't find a female scart cable, then going into the device through the analog rgb port (db15 vga port) from a hd15 vga to a db15 vga adapter, then output through the other db15 vga port through another db15 to hd15 vga adapter, then passed through to my gefen vga to dvi scaler+, and then output to my tv via a dvi to hdmi cable all at 480p 31khz mode, not sure on that though if someone could clarify that for me how bad the quality would diminish. I know it sounds kind of like a weird set-up but it was the only way I could get it connected to the converter since it doesn't have a direct scart port like the Displ does, and that is what brings up the question of whether these converters and scalers are one-in-the-same or completely different because all the ports on the back are exactly the same as on the Displ, and are in the same locations. So if anyone could answer my questions I would be very grateful. Also if it helps the model is a SFN-100, it is also in one of the images for you guys to see. Thanks again.
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post #2 of 24 Old 09-22-2012, 02:41 AM
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Hey there,

why does your SOIA not work with 240p sources ?

The SFN-100 is an early Micomsoft scan converter, not an upscaler. You feed 31khz or 24khz signals from japanese PC systems (PC-98 and such) and output 15khz Video, S-Video and RGBs.
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post #3 of 24 Old 09-22-2012, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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It's the same problem as I said last time I made a thread, the image just scrolls down the display in a never ending loop. I don't know if it's just not compatible with it or just doesn't like game consoles because that's all I have tried so far is a wii playing anything 240p, and a ps1. Darn, well like I said it was only $20, maybe it might come in handy in the future. Does anyone know where I might be able to find a Displ or equivalent, basically something that does not de-interlace 240p?
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post #4 of 24 Old 09-23-2012, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry for the double post. @ Fudoh. Can you tell me a little more about that SFN-100 converter, because I have been pondering the last couple days, and looking through all your reviews on your deinterlacing webpage, and was curious about what resolutions that converter can output.

I was thinking about getting either a hdmi to vga, or component to vga converter, then go to slg3000 than to that micomsoft converter, then depending on the resolution it can output, preferably 480i, and make my tv deinterlace it, and hopefully still maintain that perfect deinterlacing my ps3 did at the start plus the composite dither and color bleeding and any other game specific effects that only composite can do, and still have the scanlines from the slg3000. What do you think? Could that chain work or am I missing something? Also I'm more leaning towards getting the component to vga converter just so I don't have to deal with that extra quality loss the hdmi to vga would do converting digital to analog.

Also if you know much about crt hdtvs, could you tell me if they convert analog to digital to upconvert to 480p/540p, because my tv is capable of displaying both 480p and 1080i/540p? I'm just curious just to be curious it really isn't important because the component output of the ps3 should make it more than sharp enough to rival even sd crts.

Thanks for all your help.
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post #5 of 24 Old 09-24-2012, 07:46 AM
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It's the same problem as I said last time I made a thread, the image just scrolls down the display in a never ending loop. I don't know if it's just not compatible with it
The SFN-100 only takes 24 and 31khz signals. You cannot feed a 15khz signal to it.
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Does anyone know where I might be able to find a Displ or equivalent, basically something that does not de-interlace 240p?
The Displ is next to impossible to find. If you look for something else from Micomsoft just email Jacob at Solaris and have him check what's available 2nd hand on Yahoo.
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Sorry for the double post. @ Fudoh. Can you tell me a little more about that SFN-100 converter, because I have been pondering the last couple days, and looking through all your reviews on your deinterlacing webpage, and was curious about what resolutions that converter can output.
you input VGA and it will output 480i through video, s-video or RGBs. While I've never had it, I'm pretty sure that it does only output interlaced.
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I was thinking about getting either a hdmi to vga, or component to vga converter, then go to slg3000 than to that micomsoft converter, then depending on the resolution it can output, preferably 480i, and make my tv deinterlace it, and hopefully still maintain that perfect deinterlacing my ps3 did at the start plus the composite dither and color bleeding and any other game specific effects that only composite can do, and still have the scanlines from the slg3000. What do you think?
to put it simple: that's the worst idea I've ever heard and it won't work for various reasons.
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Also if you know much about crt hdtvs, could you tell me if they convert analog to digital to upconvert to 480p/540p
most do, or you have some of kind option to disable this. Also here in Europe we hardly had any HD CRTs and the ED sets we had were all aimed at 100Hz interlaced instead of 50Hz progressive.

Btw: the component HD signal from a PS3 is way worse than the HDMI signal, so using a HDMI to VGA converter is much better than using a component to VGA transcoder.

I don't really understand what you accomplish to do. What are your sources and what's your display ? What did you want to do with the SFN-100 in the first place ?
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post #6 of 24 Old 09-24-2012, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

The SFN-100 only takes 24 and 31khz signals. You cannot feed a 15khz signal to it.
The Displ is next to impossible to find. If you look for something else from Micomsoft just email Jacob at Solaris and have him check what's available 2nd hand on Yahoo.
you input VGA and it will output 480i through video, s-video or RGBs. While I've never had it, I'm pretty sure that it does only output interlaced.
to put it simple: that's the worst idea I've ever heard and it won't work for various reasons.
most do, or you have some of kind option to disable this. Also here in Europe we hardly had any HD CRTs and the ED sets we had were all aimed at 100Hz interlaced instead of 50Hz progressive.
Btw: the component HD signal from a PS3 is way worse than the HDMI signal, so using a HDMI to VGA converter is much better than using a component to VGA transcoder.

I don't really understand what you accomplish to do. What are your sources and what's your display ? What did you want to do with the SFN-100 in the first place ?

Ok I'll look into that solaris website.

What makes component so much worse than hdmi for ps3? I have the launch 60GB version by the way if that makes any difference.

I was thinking having the ps3 output a 480p signal to avoid deinterlacing errors from mostly ps1 games. Then go through the slg3000 for scanlines. Then go to the micomsoft downconverter to be output as 480i. And last have my tv deinterlace the two field together again and hopefully still have that scanline field. But I wanted to ask about it before I bought anything else to see how that might work and if the scanline field would still be deinterlaced by my tv, and giving me a emulated 240p picture.
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post #7 of 24 Old 09-24-2012, 12:27 PM
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What makes component so much worse than hdmi for ps3? I have the launch 60GB version by the way if that makes any difference.
doesn't make a difference, all models are the same. Component is rather blurry compared to HDMI.
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I was thinking having the ps3 output a 480p signal to avoid deinterlacing errors from mostly ps1 games. Then go through the slg3000 for scanlines....
I don't understand why you would go down to 480i again after that ? The best thing you could do is:

PS3 > HDMI to VGA converter > SLG3000 > TV Set

and if your TV does not have a VGA input, then you can add a VGA to HDMI converter after that, but there's absolutely no need to go down back to 15khz at any point.
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post #8 of 24 Old 09-24-2012, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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well I have that set-up right now.

1. Ps3 to Image Anyplace via component.
2. Image Anyplace to slg3000
3. slg3000 to gefen vga to dvi scaler plus (passthrough with 480p though)
4. Gefen scaler to tv via dvi to hdmi cable

The picture is really amazing and all, but since I'm from the US I grew up on composite quality. I know it's really crappy and all, but I've noticed a lot of things that are only possible through the composite connection vs. component or hdmi. I prefer that instead of the better picture, which is probably better than the real system anyway on a sd crt in terms of sharpness. That's why I want to convert it back to 480i.

Sorry for any confusion.
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post #9 of 24 Old 09-24-2012, 01:31 PM
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I don't get it, sorry. What's the SOIA doing in your setup right now ? And why don't you let the Gefen do the scaling ? It should be better than your TV.

PS1 games are originally 240p and the PS3 can only output them at either 480i or 480p (or higher), so you take massive hit in quality there already, by introduding interlacing/deinterlacing where none should happen.
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post #10 of 24 Old 09-24-2012, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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The Image Anyplace is acting basically like a converter at the moment, taking the component/composite signal and converting it to vga so I can get scanlines on the video signal. Otherwise I would just use the gefen scaler if I wasn't looking for that authentic look.

My tv doesn't have vga so I have to convert the signal to dvi/hdmi otherwise I would just hook the slg3000 right to my tv. Also my tv is able to output both 480p and 1080i/540p so their is no scaling as far as I can tell when fed a 480p signal, so that's why it is acting as a passthrough.

My overall goal was to try and cut down on some of those processors especially the gefen since its not actually doing anything at the moment other then convert vga to hdmi. Since I'm making the ps3 now do the deinterlacing instead of the Image Anyplace (still can't believe how much better that looks too, without all the screen tearing that the image anyplace does with it's static mesh deinterlacing mode.) I have no need for that either, so I was looking to do a straight signal transfer to the micomsoft downscaler then have my tv deinterlace that, to get that 480p picture again but through composite so I don't get that enhanced sharpness and weird looking graphics, but still hopefully get scanlines, on my ps1 and ps2 games, (in my opinion,) your probably use to that extra sharpness and all since a lot of your stuff is connected through rgb and scart, but it just looks weird to me, even through component, which I know is not rgb, still gives a weird and distracting look to me. Damn USA and all it's restrictions on video signals.
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post #11 of 24 Old 09-24-2012, 03:02 PM
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Are you using a HD CRT ?

If you do, you should first find out how your TV reacts to a 240p signal. On a CRT it makes much more sense to aim for natural scanlines (by feeding 240p) instead of going 480p with simulated ones.

If you want washed out graphics, but want scanlines nevertheless) using a PS1 with actual composite output would make much more sense to me. The PS3 renders Playstation 1 considerably sharper (since it's just emulated) than the original PS1 did, also it's limited to 480i instead of real 240p and you get a extra 2-3 frames of lag which you would not have with a original PS1 setup.
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post #12 of 24 Old 09-24-2012, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes I'm using a Panasonic CT-34WX54J HD CRT.

Yes I have connected my ps1 directly to my TV to see if I could get real scanlines but I don't see them. Are they suppose to be there? Is their a setting I can change? I know how to access the service mode on my TV, is there something I can change there if need be? A certain input I'm suppose to use? My TV has 3 sets of composite inputs. 2 in back. 1 in front. Also if you know anything about TV service modes for Panasonics, mine actually shows 480i in it, but I'm still unsure if it is actually outputting 480i, if you or anyone you can refer me to can answer that I would greatly appreciate it.

Believe me I want nothing more than to hook my ps1 directly to this TV and not use all these processors if I can, and the picture actually looks really good it's just the deinterlacing artifacts that bug me. I think their deinterlacing artifacts? It could be just the game being that jaggy because the scanlines are invisible, and hopefully something can be done about that.
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post #13 of 24 Old 09-25-2012, 07:08 AM
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There's probably nothing you can do. If your TV decides to deinterlace all incoming 15khz signal, then that's the way it is. If you connect a PS1 using composite (or s-video for a little more quality) and you don't get clear and visible scanlines, than your TV has a linedoubler as it's initial processing stage.

I would still not go HDMI. Your best option should be PS3 > transcoder > SLG > transcoder > TV while keeping the signal at 480p all the time. If you feel the graphics are too sharp for your taste, you can add the bilinear filtering for the PS3's PS1 emulation. The transcoders will run you about $40 each.
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post #14 of 24 Old 09-25-2012, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the help. When are TV manufactures going to wake-up and realise how much more sales they could get with TVs if they had backwards comparability with SD material. I work at Wal-mart in the electronics dept. and you wouldn't believe how many people complain when the try hook all their old stuff to these flat screen TVs and get that crappy picture.
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post #15 of 24 Old 09-25-2012, 04:49 PM
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And you might not believe how extremely awesome even SD can look on great TVs with the proper processing wink.gif

I have a Sony BVM on hand here (once five figures production CRT) and I know how SD looks on a great CRT. Nevertheless I would never go back and watch SD on a CRT if I don't have to. If you take Panasonic's plasma line up for example. Their SD picture easily already beats the SD picture of most CRTs and even low-res videogame material looks awesome. Maybe you should just upgrade.
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post #16 of 24 Old 09-26-2012, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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You know, I've thought about that after going through 2 LCD HDTVs; mind you, nothing happened to them, they just became hamy-downs. Plasma seems like a good type of TV, but I'm okay with the CRT I have. It is one of the few made that has an actual HDMI port, capable of both 480p and 1080i, so less of a chance for input lag, especially on newer games that are 720p, and less on older games since it only has to deinterlace and not upscale; and of course the added bonus of near perfect colors and accurate blacks without the $4000 price tag.

One thing I do have to ask Fudoh. Do you by chance know of any really good processor that can do 540p w/o deinterlacing of any kind, or very minimal. I want to be able to exploit the 540p capability of my TV, just like the 240p trick used for retro consoles. Preferably one that you can control what field the image will be displayed on, either all odd lines or all even lines, so I can use my TVs own natural scanlines if it still has that kind of capability.
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post #17 of 24 Old 09-27-2012, 06:09 AM
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There are timing differences between a 1080i and an actual 540p signal. If you were to display a 1080i signal as 540p (= with the same line offset), you get shaky horizontal lines. That's why VPs always deinterlace and then reinterlace in case you chose an interlaced output timing. If you want to play with 540p timings, I'd get something like a VP30, where you can try custom timings and see how (or if) your TV actually handles a 540p signal. True 540p via HDMI is rather unlikely, since the HDMI chip inside the TV would have to recognize the resolution, but you could possible get it working through an analogue input (component).
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It is one of the few made that has an actual HDMI port, capable of both 480p and 1080i, so less of a chance for input lag
but your TV obviously has a digital input processor, so unless you've tested it to have a low latency, it's possible that the lag is quite as present as on any other LCD or plasma set.
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and of course the added bonus of near perfect colors and accurate blacks without the $4000 price tag.
you don't have to spend $4000 for great colors and actual black anymore.
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post #18 of 24 Old 09-27-2012, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! I was actually planning to use component for the 540p timing anyways; just wasn't sure how my TV might handle it, or what processor might work to do that that isn't $1400 or more. I was doing some more research into a good 540p processor and I stumbled upon a thread from here that had screenshots from a vp20 from anchor bay, the shots were really dark though. Was that an issue with the TV or video processor? If the video processor, can it be corrected? Otherwise good if its the TV. They were screenshots from Sonic the Hedgehog on Sega Gensis.

I haven't tested my TV for input lag yet, its something I need to do, but since it's deinterlacing only I'd image it can't be anymore that 6-7ms (crosses fingers).

Ok fine that might have been exaggerating a little, maybe more like $1500 then for the really good ones.
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post #19 of 24 Old 09-27-2012, 12:29 PM
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The VP20 is probably the only processor you should not buy, since it got only a HDMI output. The VP30 has component output. You're looking at around $140-180 for a VP30.
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post #20 of 24 Old 09-27-2012, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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OK thanks! I looked into the vp30 and found a couple on eBay. Do I have to have that abt102 upgrade to get it to work with 540p timings? If not then I can bid on one of those $100 ones, otherwise their is one with the upgrade for $250.

Edit: Fudoh! Have you ever heard of the TV One series of video converters and scalers? Specifically the C2 series. I was looking at maybe getting the C2-7100 off of ebay. It's $1400, but I have no problem saving for it. Do they properly recognize 240p? Are they a good reliable brand? Acceptable input lag? Anything you can do to answer those questions would be really awesome.
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post #21 of 24 Old 09-28-2012, 02:03 AM
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The ABT102 upgrade adds more deinterlacing modes for the input signals. You don't need it for custom output timings.

TVOne C2: not suitable for your needs.
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post #22 of 24 Old 09-28-2012, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay sounds good. Was just curious about that TV One series since it mentioned custom output resolutions as well, but never mind, if you say its not what I need I can deal with that. Any idea how much input lag I might be getting up scaling 240p to 540p, and probably 480i from a ps2 to 1080i from the vp30? Also does this processor support those really tricky retro console games that use 480i for menus and such within a 240p resolution? An example would be like the Jurassic Park game for Super Nintendo, it uses 480i for that info screen that pops up after no movement for a brief time and creates that transparency effect? Is there a way to set it up to process those types of 480i signals to be up scaled to 1080i so the game remains accurate?
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post #23 of 24 Old 09-28-2012, 11:27 AM
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Any idea how much input lag I might be getting up scaling 240p to 540p, and probably 480i from a ps2 to 1080i from the vp30?
A little more than 2 frames without the ABT102 card. With the ABT you can chose from some game modes (one under 1 frame, the other under 2 frames). You might want to check the review(s) for the unit(s) by following the link in my signature.
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Also does this processor support those really tricky retro console games that use 480i for menus and such within a 240p resolution?
support in the sense that both input resolution work fine ? The VP30 can't really recognize 240p, so it applies deinterlacing to low-res progressive signals as well. The results are good enough though.
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Is there a way to set it up to process those types of 480i signals to be up scaled to 1080i so the game remains accurate?
As said earlier, there is no direct 480i to 1080i scaling in any processor. If you you chose 1080i output, the signal gets deinterlaced to 480p first, then upscaled to 1080p, then output as 1080i.
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post #24 of 24 Old 09-28-2012, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it!
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