Question about video signal scaling or scan converting - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 12 Old 10-23-2012, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Forgive me if I'm in the wrong place, but I'm looking for a little help.

Basically, I have a device that outputs in 240p via composite cables (yellow/white/red plugs). I need to somehow to convert that signal for use with a device that will only accept 480i (or better; 480p, 720i, 720p, 1080i) signal in the form of component or composite cables.

Is this possible to accomplish? Can a DVD player with AV input/output upscale the signal? If so, how would I know what kind to look for?

Any help is appreciated, trying to be as specific as possible, let me know of you have any questions.
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post #2 of 12 Old 10-23-2012, 05:37 AM
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What do you want to do ? Record 240p videogames on a unit like a HD-PVR ?

Your problem is not only the resolution (240p vs. 480i), but also that most old video game systems don't exactly output NTSC refresh rates. The HD PVR (for example) can't record a SNES or N64, even after being converted to 480i, because the refresh rate is slightly off.

Tell us what you want to do and I'll suggest a solution.


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post #3 of 12 Old 10-23-2012, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Right, that's exactly what I'm trying to do; trying to record my N64 (NTSC) on my Hauppauge HD PVR. Obviously ran into some issues there.

I've been recommended to simply bail on the PVR for classic recordings and invest in a Dazzle, but I'm running Win 7 64-bit, which (as far as I know) isn't compatible with any Dazzle model.

Any suggestions?
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post #4 of 12 Old 10-23-2012, 06:06 AM
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I've recommend the following to several people by now and it works fine. It's a bit of an effort though.

First you need to linedouble your N64's NTSC output. Here I usually recommend an iScan Pro. it takes composite, s-video and component and outputs both VGA and component in 480p. If you try to connect the output directly to your HDPVR, it will sync for a moment, but then lose sync due to the non-standard timings. So you need a scan converter after that which takes the 480p VGA and outputs 100% perfect NTSC in 480i. Here you can use something like an Extron VSC 75.

You're looking at about $40-50 for the iScan and $30-40 for the Extron.

You can replace the iScan with another upscaler or linedoubler you can find. Same with the Extron. This way you'll record in 480i.

Instead you can use a video processor which can output in a refresh rate decoupled from the input. If you take an iScan HD for example, you can output 480p with 100% perfect 59.94Hz NTSC timing using component. Here you're looking at about $100-125. And you would record in 480p then. Advantage in using a iScan HD, HD+ or VP30 is that you get RGB inputs as well, so you're not limited to S-Video if you want to record other systems (like SNES) or decide to RGB-mod your N64.

If you want to use another VP, not all of them can decouple the output from the input, especially older linedoublers like the iScan Pro will stricly "double" the signat, so the non-standard refresh rate remains.


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post #5 of 12 Old 10-23-2012, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I saw on YouTube, someone provided a fix, where he connected his game console (SNES I think) S-video and audio to a DVD recorder, and then connected the DVD recorder's output (which was component) to the HD PVR, which seemed to fix the problem.

Do you suppose something like this would provide the same outcome as working with the iScan and Extron?

Or even something like a simple VHS player with composite inputs and outputs?


Here's a link to that video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD4ADMJfpYk
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post #6 of 12 Old 10-23-2012, 04:12 PM
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depends on the DVD recorder in question. I have a Pioneer one and the signal is not changed when just passed through, so it doesn't work. Might work on other units.

What you can do is use a DVD/HDD recorder and use timeshifted recording. In other words, you hit record on the HDD recorder and press play a few seconds after that. This way the signal get's converted to 480i the way you like.


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post #7 of 12 Old 10-23-2012, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I figured about as much, and whether signal is converted or not is not exactly readily available in the average user manual.

I was thinking maybe I could simply split the RCA signal, run it to my TV, and a VHS player, then have the VHS either output directly to the PVR if possible; if not, record gameplay on to tape, then play it back into the PVR or something.

At the going price for the scan converter and linedoubler, I might as well simply invest in a PAL N64 console and games (which I think work fine and dandy with the PVR) or try and find a DVD box that will convert the signal, or at least record the N64, so I can playback into the PVR, or something.

Maybe I'll find a good deal on ebay soon, though. We'll see what happens.

I appreciate all the help, really.
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post #8 of 12 Old 10-23-2012, 04:52 PM
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PAL N64 outputs 288p which doesn't work either.

And I doubt that a VHS deck will work, as it's a pure analogue machine.


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post #9 of 12 Old 10-23-2012, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Ah, I was thinking it was 576i, but turns out that's only for a select few games that use the higher definition capabilities of the console.


I might just end up Doing a dual-boot on my computer with another version of Windows and use a Dazzle.


But, if I were to go the route of using the iScan and Extron with the PVR, would the actual recording quality be better than if I used a Dazzle? I mean -- The game itself puts out 240, right? does upscaling actually improve the resolution? Would it be worth the investment over a Dazzle recorder?
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post #10 of 12 Old 10-24-2012, 04:17 AM
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The dazzle records in 480i which causes combing effects. You have to do a manual deinterlacing before you can upload something like this to Youtube (Well, don't have to, but you should).
If you record in 480p you don't have this problem.


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post #11 of 12 Old 10-24-2012, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Would something like an AverKey 300 be a suitable substitute for the Extron scan converter? Any possible pros/cons?
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post #12 of 12 Old 10-24-2012, 05:48 PM
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should work. When buying old gear, I just usually prefer stuff that was once really expensive (like the Extrons at $2,000+) compared to stuff that has always been cheap.


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