Vigatec Dune F issues - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 9 Old 08-29-2013, 03:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello AVS!

I have owned a Comm-Tec UP 1280 FD for some time, using it for retro gaming systems (16/32/128bit consoles & supergun, euro scart>db15, bnc>vga), and I have been happy with it but it lacks some features which I would have loved to have like format conversion and better picture enhancement options.

So I thought about acquiring a GVC1280 but went with the higher-end Dune F to see what it's got... but to my surprise there are a few issues I was not expecting;

1. Non-consistent picture.
About 10% of the active image displayed on my tv (LG 32LD450 via vga) looks different from the other 90%.
Like a vertical band on the left that looks enhanced/sharp, and the rest remaining blurry.
Same stuff whether enhancement is on or off. Really feels like only 10% of the image is being actively processed!
I'll post a picture ASAP.
(Note: been testing with a 60Hz switched MD2 & modedd PS1 w/ ntsc games)

2. Judder.
To my surprise I couldn't find the same Time Base Correction feature that is available on the Comm-Tec.
The Vigatec documentation advertises on this feature but as 'integrated'. You don't actually have access to it (no on/off switch).
There are 'film mode' or film processing' like options but they don't do anything to eliminate the judder/stuttering from the MD2 of PS1 games in movement.
On the Comm-Tec when you switch it on everything becomes perfectly stable and smooth, even when playing weird-sync arcade pcbs!
So... are all Vigatec branded processors the same (no TBC switch) ?

3. Firmware.
Thinking there might have been something wrong witht the firmware I have tried a soft reset, but nothing changed.
So I have tried a hard reset, the one that brings back the default older firmware... it didn't change anything...
And now I feel like an idiot because the Vigatec firmware are no longer available for download. frown.gif

4. 480p/640x480 upscaling.
Coming from a PC or an XRGB to input 6 or 7 set on Auto or 640x480, most options (format, enhancement, output, etc) simply become unavailable.
And it looks like the output is locked to 1080p (my tv says its receiving a 1080p signal) but it really feel like a simple pass-through.

Any help/advice will be immensely appreciated ! smile.gif

Thanks.
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post #2 of 9 Old 08-29-2013, 05:29 AM
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oh, you will have a very hard time to find any help on those issues.

With your line up of systems and obvious will to invest into proper hardware, why don't you switch to a Micomsoft processor ? (EDIT: reg. 4) you have a XRGB and still see any need to run through a CommTec or Dune ? Why is that ? Feel free to get in touch via email to discuss this a little further.....)

2) what you're looking is a framelock option. Did the TBC option on the CommTec really smoothen out the movement ? On the Dune units the TBC retimes the input signal, but it does not lock the output refresh rate. You'd be much better off with a Videon or Vigatec linedoubler (FX2 or FX2+ on the Vigatec side). On those the outputs are automatically framelocked to the input (pure line doubling). I think on the Dune units the outputs are unlocked due to the integrated scaling option. Probably the deinterlacing stage is framelocked, but gets unlocked in the scaling stage.

4) If you input progressive signals, the whole Faroudja processing stage is bypassed and you run directly into the scaler stage. That's why all the options are disabled. And yes, the output is locked to the resolution you chose previously. To switch the output res you change to an interlaced input, change the output settings and then change back to the progressive input.
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post #3 of 9 Old 08-29-2013, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes I admit that sounds strange because I already own an XRGB-2 and 3 ! ^^
I am trying various other solutions primarily out of curiosity, and because I like the trial-and-error route, testing with my own hardware and seeing with my onwn eyes.

Ultimately I would like to have two separate lcd+processor setups, one will most likely end-up being XRGB-2+VP30+LCDTV (maybe a 2013 Sony W6 series)
... and the other one is not yet decided, but something smaller and simpler like a standalone machine would be preferable for convenience reasons.
The Dune F grabbed my attention because of the many 'enhancement' features that are even completely de-activable if needed.

Then when I am satisfied I will resell the extra processors that I won't use.
Not the least expensive route but I am kind of picky on the end quality. ^^

2). Yes it does ! It might not be as smooth as the VP30's locked output for instance (maybe from time to time jus one very little hard to see 'jump) but it is definitely superior to the Dune F's.
When it is off there's a bit of shaking at the top of the picture, like an XRGB without AFC.
But when it is on the picture is completely stable no matter what gaming system I throw at it... maybe at the cost of a 1 frame delay (feels like).
All-in-all I find it to be very close to an XRGB-2, just a tiny bit less performing in all aspects.

4). I see now ! Thanks. The manual isn't very detailed so it was difficult to understand.
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post #4 of 9 Old 08-29-2013, 07:27 AM
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Sony W6 sounds like a great idea for gaming.

I would recommend you to join the XRGB-3 and the VP30 instead. The XRGB's output in B1 more stable than the XRGB-2's and ran into a few instances where the XRGB-2/DVDO combo could not handle the color levels (very weird effect, for example on Super Mario 3 running on a RGB-modded Famicom). XRGB-3 + DVDO is a dream combo though.

It's hardly worth looking into any other processors - at least not 240p. 480i is quite fine into directly the DVDO. Just for 480p I prefer other processors.

The XRGB/DVDO combo is nice if have other source, maybe a DVD player, as well. If not, it's worth looking into the Framemeister instead.
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post #5 of 9 Old 08-29-2013, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I have tried with the XRGB-3 yes and it was absolutely gorgeous, its low pass filter also helped a lot.
The reason why I am trying so hard with the XRGB-2 is that I have some arcade boards the 3 won't take, and I have hopes for a 'single combo' that would take everything as well.

That weird color issue you are talking about: I've seen it while playing the first level of Thunder Force IV (when the sun sets).
Isn't there a way to fix it ?
Maybe connecting the XRGB-2 to the VP30's RGBs input with a sync combiner or tweaking 2's output with resistors ?
(I have no idea what I'm saying, just looking for a hint ^^)

Last question: if I wanted to save costs for a second 'scaler combo', would an iScan HD+ do the same job as the iScan VP series ?
(that fantastic 'overscan' setting is what made me fall in love with the VP30, and I don't know if the HD+ can do the same job).
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post #6 of 9 Old 08-29-2013, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
The reason why I am trying so hard with the XRGB-2 is that I have some arcade boards the 3 won't take
I know, but if you intend to run those, the VP30 and your display have to play along as well. I can't imagine that you could convince a Seibu board (14,25khz at 54Hz) to run through the VP30 on a LCD.
Quote:
That weird color issue you are talking about: I've seen it while playing the first level of Thunder Force IV (when the sun sets). Isn't there a way to fix it ?
you could probably just put an Extron RGB interface between the two processors. This should recondition the signal RGB levels. Would probably do the trick and might stabilize the XRGB-2's sync signal as well.
Quote:
Last question: if I wanted to save costs for a second 'scaler combo', would an iScan HD+ do the same job as the iScan VP series ?
Should perform close, yes, but the scaling engine got a little better on the VP series and on the HD+ you don't have a low-latency mode for progressive signals, so you get more lag.
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post #7 of 9 Old 08-29-2013, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

I know, but if you intend to run those, the VP30 and your display have to play along as well. I can't imagine that you could convince a Seibu board (14,25khz at 54Hz) to run through the VP30 on a LCD.
Not even with the XRGB-2's help ? The 'weirdest' I've tried so far are Toaplan's Dogyuun & Tatsujin Oh, both working just fine. I don't plan to acquire Seibu boards in the future, but I would be happy to have some Irem, and even a Xexex... reading you makes me think I should wait before selling my Comm-Tec, which I suspect to be able to handle the craziest refresh rates...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

you could probably just put an Extron RGB interface between the two processors. This should recondition the signal RGB levels. Would probably do the trick and might stabilize the XRGB-2's sync signal as well.
That is somethin I have hoped to be able to avoid, for some reason adding even more stuff in the chain makes me feel like I am losing a bet with the electricity company lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

Should perform close, yes, but the scaling engine got a little better on the VP series and on the HD+ you don't have a low-latency mode for progressive signals, so you get more lag.
Ooh so that's it... no good if I want to keep a sub-1 frame processing system.
Maybe an XRGB-1 + VP20 then... aren't there any other scalers around able to upscale the older XRGBs as quickly and as well as the iScan VPs do ? (with a similar overscan feature that won't screw-up the fake scanlines alignment)
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post #8 of 9 Old 08-29-2013, 05:13 PM
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Dogyuun and Truxton 2 are pretty close to NTSC specs. Even a MVS is "weirder" than those.

Irem & Xexex are 100% out of the question, unless you either use a multi-sync CRT instead of a LCD or you use the XRGB-3's B0 mode for a framerate conversion.

Maybe an XRGB-1 + VP20 -> VP20 does not have RGBHV inputs.

There's hardly anything else. The Gefen VGA to DVI Scaler Plus scales considerably better than the VP30, works nice with most refresh rates, but doesn't have freely adjustable overscan.
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post #9 of 9 Old 08-30-2013, 03:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I see, well I am glad to learn about the limits of these machines !

Thanks for your time Fudoh. cool.gif
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