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post #271 of 298 Old 12-10-2014, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post

=================

Note on Radiance setup: If you have a progressive source (e.g. Bluray movies), you can put the Radiance in "Game Mode" to bypass the GF9450 for that source (in Input Video Setup menu), assuming you are not using any GF9450 enhancements (e.g. edge, noise). I do not think that for real video you will see any improvement in Chroma bandwidth, but it is possible there might be a very slight improvement, and it will improve the Chroma Burst pattern. It also has the potentially nice side effect of reducing the video latency in the Radiance since it eliminates the GF9450 processing time.
Thanks for that, there is always the potential that a test pattern will demonstrate a limitation in the video system that just isn't relevant to consumer sources. So for use with progressive sources which functions will be disabled when bypassing the GF9450 in game mode?
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post #272 of 298 Old 12-10-2014, 10:22 AM
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if you use game mode you lose the adaptive contrast, sharpness and noise reduction. If you have a radiance with darbee it will still be working.

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post #273 of 298 Old 12-10-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
1) The Spears and Muncil Chroma burst uses out-of-Nyquist-band transitions. This is actually common in test patterns. However, actual video is required to keep transitions within the frequency limits imposed by Nyquist Sampling Theory. Within the Radiance the input pipeline is 4:2:2, and the calibration pipeline is RGB (i.e. converted to full resolution Chroma, and then to RGB), and this is done with a Nyquist filter. Nyquist filters cannot pass out-of-Nyquist-band signals without changing them.

The bursts go right up to the maximum Nyquist frequency, but not beyond (nor could they go "beyond Nyquist" - it's a limit that you can't actually go beyond). I agree that most real video does not contain very much energy all the way up at the Nyquist limit. That said, many processors manage to pass a max burst with minimal rolloff. There's no particular reason to have any rolloff at all in a fully digital system where the input and output are the same resolution.

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2) The Spears and Muncil Chroma burst uses YCbCr combinations that create out-of-range values when converted to RGB, as the Radiance does in its calibration pipeline. The RGB values in the Radiance clamp negative values to 0 and over-range vales to 255 (speaking in 8 bit terms). Since black = 16 and white = 235 in 8-bits terms the RGB values must be significantly below black or above white to get clamped. The Spears and Muncil Chroma Burst pattern has values that do get clamped (both negative and over 255). So once these are converted back to YCbCr the values will be changed, and this will affect results when the data is then filtered using Nyquist based sampling.

Our disc has both in-limit and over-limit bursts for different situations. The in-limit bursts are comfortably within limits for RGB and YCbCr , when using appropriate resampling and applying BT.709 conversion. In any case, over-limit values would not explain any of the effects the user reported.


And my name's spelled "Munsil," for what it's worth.


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post #274 of 298 Old 12-10-2014, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by chronoclast View Post
I'm a new 2020 owner and I calibrated and got it set up yesterday. My chain now is Oppo 103 (HDMI 2 output and source direct) > Marantz SR7008 AVR (processing is turned off) > 2020 > display. Both the 103 and the 2020 are set to Ycbcr 422 now. I've also tested their other color spaces. Checking with Spears and Munsil it fails horizontal chroma burst, has banding in the ramps, and the chroma range boxes aren't visible with the Oppo set to 422 and 444. It passes the chroma burst on RGB but banding is still there and the boxes aren't visible. Changing the 2020's output doesn't make a difference. Before I added the 2020 to the chain, it passed everything on 444 but 422 failed.

Should I be concerned about this?
When I have Darbee turned on and use the S&M disc, I will also not pass some of the Chroma patterns test's from the S&M disc using my VT60.

You may want to turn the Darbee "enhancement" off in your 2020 . Then Run the S&M disc.
I never have Darbee turned on.

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post #275 of 298 Old 12-10-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
When I have Darbee turned on and use the S&M disc, I will also not pass some of the Chroma patterns test's from the S&M disc using my VT60.

You may want to turn the Darbee "enhancement" off in your 2020 . Then Run the S&M disc.
I never have Darbee turned on.

ss
I already had the Darbee turned off when I used S&M. I'm leaving it off for everything too.

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post #276 of 298 Old 12-11-2014, 05:37 AM
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On some DVDs, I think I'm seeing the ICP as red edges are very jagged. Is the CUE filter also for that? It doesn't seem to do anything.

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post #277 of 298 Old 12-11-2014, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dmunsil View Post
The bursts go right up to the maximum Nyquist frequency, but not beyond (nor could they go "beyond Nyquist" - it's a limit that you can't actually go beyond). I agree that most real video does not contain very much energy all the way up at the Nyquist limit. That said, many processors manage to pass a max burst with minimal rolloff. There's no particular reason to have any rolloff at all in a fully digital system where the input and output are the same resolution.

Our disc has both in-limit and over-limit bursts for different situations. The in-limit bursts are comfortably within limits for RGB and YCbCr , when using appropriate resampling and applying BT.709 conversion. In any case, over-limit values would not explain any of the effects the user reported.

And my name's spelled "Munsil," for what it's worth.


Don
Don:
Sorry about the spelling error on your name.

When "at Nyquist" the signal is a "Square Wave" which has frequencies above Nyquist, for anything but coincident sample output, which was my point. So, when passed through a true Nyquist filter this can cause issues, unless there is a specific case of coincident samples. The coincident samples case works for Luma since the input and output are are the same sample points, but this is a special case and hides the fact that at near - but below - Nyquist the filters for Luma will have rolled off.

For Chroma, we are generating twice the number of output samples as input samples when converting to RGB and so the "square wave" created by "at Nyquist" samples in the Chroma Burst will have an effect on the filter output. As mentioned, we have been able to minimize this in our FPGA by evaluating the pattern and tweaking our design, but the GF9450 has roll off with the Chroma Burst pattern and we can't change that except to bypass it. I don't think the GF9450 roll-off in Chroma will be visible on actual video, but it can be bypassed (with certain restrictions on enhancements) for those who do not want to take that chance.

For actual video, especially video compressed with MPEG, the roll-off will likely start below 80% of Nyquist (probably lower). Compression reduces the high frequencies further, and even more so for Chroma than Luma due to the DCT truncation matrices. Because of this there will not be any significant energy at Nyquist in actual video. So while I agree the Chroma Burst pattern is useful - and did help us tune our FPGA code - it is not necessarily indicative of performance with actual video.

For the clamping of out-of-bound samples the result is a reduction in the amplitude when converted back to YCbCr. Since a bandwidth limitation in a Nyquist filter causes a roll-off in the amplitude, the amplitude reduction caused by the clamped RGB can appear similar to a reduction in bandwidth, especially if the clamped pixel data goes through another Nyquist filter.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond, and would be happy to discuss this further.

Jim Peterson
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Last edited by jrp; 12-11-2014 at 11:14 AM.
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post #278 of 298 Old 12-11-2014, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
When "at Nyquist" the signal is a "Square Wave" which has frequencies above Nyquist, for anything but coincident sample output, which was my point.
You cannot both say that it is at the Nyquist limit and also a square wave. In sampling theory, it's a pure sine wave at the Nyquist limit. Interpreting it as a square wave involves no longer seeing it as a sampled signal. It's one or the other, not both.


But really, my point is incredibly simple: it is possible to generate resampling filters that preserve most of the energy of the highest burst through a Y'CbCr->R'G'B'->Y'CbCr conversion chain. We have generated such filters, and use them regularly to process video. The SMPTE filters are quite good in that regard. It's very common for the highest burst to roll off somewhat, so if the user is seeing the burst get a bit dimmer than the other bursts, that's perfectly normal.


Quote:
For the clamping of out-of-bound samples the result is a reduction in the amplitude when converted back to YCbCr.

Yes, but this happens equally to all bursts. It doesn't cause a differential amplitude loss of the highest frequencies. The various bursts are all still visually comparable, and I reiterate that it doesn't explain the user's issues.

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post #279 of 298 Old 12-11-2014, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmunsil View Post
You cannot both say that it is at the Nyquist limit and also a square wave. In sampling theory, it's a pure sine wave at the Nyquist limit. Interpreting it as a square wave involves no longer seeing it as a sampled signal. It's one or the other, not both.


But really, my point is incredibly simple: it is possible to generate resampling filters that preserve most of the energy of the highest burst through a Y'CbCr->R'G'B'->Y'CbCr conversion chain. We have generated such filters, and use them regularly to process video. The SMPTE filters are quite good in that regard. It's very common for the highest burst to roll off somewhat, so if the user is seeing the burst get a bit dimmer than the other bursts, that's perfectly normal.





Yes, but this happens equally to all bursts. It doesn't cause a differential amplitude loss of the highest frequencies. The various bursts are all still visually comparable, and I reiterate that it doesn't explain the user's issues.

Don
Don:
If you put the max/min pattern used in the Chroma Burst through an FFT, you will see there are harmonics above Nyquist. You cannot perfectly sample an analog signal near Nyquist and that the Chroma Burst works in this case is due to the special case that you are digitally generating coincident samples.

Certainly we try to work with test patterns, and as I mentioned we did look at the Chroma Burst and were able to tweak our design to pass it with very little loss (excluding the GF9450 which has some loss). So I think we agree on the fundamental point that the pattern is useful. However, actual video will not have any significant energy near Nyquist, and so the result of the Chroma Burst pattern does not necessarily represent how actual video will be processed.

The clamping amplitude loss on conversion to RGB does affect the output of a Nyquist filter after the amplitude loss. The signal amplitude will be reduced in YCbCr. I can't say whether it is a visible aspect of the loss in this case of not.

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post #280 of 298 Old 12-11-2014, 03:14 PM
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The very last two chroma bursts on the menu are the RGB legal bursts. We have a Cb and Cr version. These won't work very well visually because you have to manipulate the opposing channels to keep the channel you care about within the RGB limits. e.g. The Cr burst will ramp Cb and Y so that Cr stays legal. I hope that makes sense.
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post #281 of 298 Old 12-11-2014, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronoclast View Post
On some DVDs, I think I'm seeing the ICP as red edges are very jagged. Is the CUE filter also for that? It doesn't seem to do anything.
Anyone? The Oppo filters this on the same content but the Lumagen doesn't.

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post #282 of 298 Old 12-11-2014, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
If you put the max/min pattern used in the Chroma Burst through an FFT, you will see there are harmonics above Nyquist. You cannot perfectly sample an analog signal near Nyquist and that the Chroma Burst works in this case is due to the special case that you are digitally generating coincident samples.

There are no actual harmonics above the Nyquist limit. Frequencies above Nyquist are aliased frequencies, which are inherently spurious. Sure, they come out of the math, but part of signal reconstruction is filtering out the aliased frequencies, because they are not actually part of the original signal.


Quote:
However, actual video will not have any significant energy near Nyquist, and so the result of the Chroma Burst pattern does not necessarily represent how actual video will be processed.

Real video does have some energy near Nyquist, and rolling it off can affect the image in a visible way. There is actually more high frequency energy in modern video than there was in the past, now that we have lots of content generated and mastered entirely digitally. We believe it is useful to preserve as much of those high frequencies as one can reasonably preserve, given the limitations of real-world resampling filters. Thus we believe the test is useful. As to how important it is relative to other tests, that's a judgment call. For the most part, the chroma bursts test is more intended as a relative test to see if different color modes are getting you a cleaner signal with less processing, or for use to make sure nothing is being lost inadvertently because some extra processing is turned on that shouldn't be.


Most of the time most people won't notice moderate (or heck, severe) rolloff of the chroma channel. But that's kind of a low bar to get over. Most people don't notice the difference between SD and HD. Home video enthusiasts are generally trying to push the envelope and get the absolute best picture possible.


Quote:
The clamping amplitude loss on conversion to RGB does affect the output of a Nyquist filter after the amplitude loss. The signal amplitude will be reduced in YCbCr. I can't say whether it is a visible aspect of the loss in this case of not.
I don't even know if you're disagreeing with me on this. My point is that the clamping is applied to all of the signal, not just the high frequencies. RGB clipping is not a reason why you would see differential amplitude of the high frequencies.


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post #283 of 298 Old 12-11-2014, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
The very last two chroma bursts on the menu are the RGB legal bursts. We have a Cb and Cr version. These won't work very well visually because you have to manipulate the opposing channels to keep the channel you care about within the RGB limits. e.g. The Cr burst will ramp Cb and Y so that Cr stays legal. I hope that makes sense.
Stacey:
Yes this makes sense.

Thanks for the information.

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post #284 of 298 Old 12-11-2014, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chronoclast View Post
On some DVDs, I think I'm seeing the ICP as red edges are very jagged. Is the CUE filter also for that? It doesn't seem to do anything.
The ICP bug is when the Chroma Macroblocks (only, and does not affect Luma) are interpreted with the wrong vertical scanline order by the MPEG decoder. This can cause a ragged Chroma edge. I don't think products manufactured in the past six years, and maybe more, would still have this bug, but it is possible.

The CUE filter should mitigate ICP to some degree since it is a vertical Chroma (only) blur filter. It will also blur Chroma vertical for products that do not have ICP, and so the CUE filter should be left off in this case. For players without ICP, the softening of the Chroma vertical edges might be hard to see given the the MEPG Chroma resolution is 1/4 that of Luma and the filter does not have a strong effect except the ICP.

You say the CUE filter has no effect. Since we have not looked at the CUE filter for some time there is a chance a bug crept in and it is not getting enabled when you turn it on. If we get some time we can look at this, but it is not going to be a high priority for us as it should not be needed for any recent products.

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post #285 of 298 Old 12-11-2014, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmunsil View Post
1) There are no actual harmonics above the Nyquist limit. Frequencies above Nyquist are aliased frequencies, which are inherently spurious. Sure, they come out of the math, but part of signal reconstruction is filtering out the aliased frequencies, because they are not actually part of the original signal.

2) Real video does have some energy near Nyquist, and rolling it off can affect the image in a visible way. There is actually more high frequency energy in modern video than there was in the past, now that we have lots of content generated and mastered entirely digitally. We believe it is useful to preserve as much of those high frequencies as one can reasonably preserve, given the limitations of real-world re-sampling filters. Thus we believe the test is useful. As to how important it is relative to other tests, that's a judgment call. For the most part, the chroma bursts test is more intended as a relative test to see if different color modes are getting you a cleaner signal with less processing, or for use to make sure nothing is being lost inadvertently because some extra processing is turned on that shouldn't be.

3) Most of the time most people won't notice moderate (or heck, severe) rolloff of the Chroma channel. But that's kind of a low bar to get over. Most people don't notice the difference between SD and HD. Home video enthusiasts are generally trying to push the envelope and get the absolute best picture possible.

4) I don't even know if you're disagreeing with me on this. My point is that the clamping is applied to all of the signal, not just the high frequencies. RGB clipping is not a reason why you would see differential amplitude of the high frequencies.

Don
1) You mention that the points are a "Sine wave" and I agree. The issue I am pointing out is that a Nyquist filter will treat them as a Sine Wave, when actually they are representing a Square Wave. That is: Max one end of the range, then max the other, without intervening values. If a TV/Projector were able to reproduce these perfectly they are showing two, and only two colors, which is a square wave.

Since the values are treated as a Sine Wave by the Nyquist filter this can create the issue I have been mentioning. The simplest example I can think of is a burst with two equal values at max value and two at minimum value. Then if a Nyquist filter is applied too these to create samples between each pair of samples, the created values will try to represent a Sine Wave, but this is actually the problem. The resulting sample between the two max samples will be significantly higher than the maximum value and significantly overflow, and be clamped. Then the output of the clamped Nyquist filter has three max value samples, one mid-range value, and then three minimum values. This ends up as a trapezoidal Wave but the Nyquist filter did try to make it a Sine Wave. For example if the values had not been at max/min the filter would have converted what should look like a Square Wave into an approximation of a Sine Wave, since the mid-point between the two upper values would remain clamped at max while the originals values are decreased (to a certain point). Because of this the resulting waveform shape changes. That said, I am still agreeing the patterns have value. My concern is the interpretation of the results.

2) I agree there can be some energy near Nyquist, but, especially with compression, I believe for actual "real world" video it is not significant. The Chroma Burst pattern has 100% energy at Nyquist, which is not possible with a actual source (especially with a filter at the front of the video pipeline so the video can be efficiently and effectively compressed). This can lead to misinterpretation of the results of test patterns like the Chroma Burst, which is really the only thing I am trying to point out. However, once again, agree the Chroma Burst pattern is useful.

3) I actually think we are agreeing on the essential points. Specifically we agree that we want to provide absolutely best possible performance. We do need to temper actual video verses test patterns in our trade-offs as we architect the Radiance. We certainly do not want to make test patterns look better to the determent of actual video. Fortunately this is generally not an issue. The Chroma Burst is a good example. We used it to evaluate our pipeline and were able to improve the pattern, and improve actual video when this highlighted a couple places were we could increase precision in the Verilog code.

4) I agree that clamping will affect all frequencies. My point was this can "look like" roll-off on a high frequency pattern.

So I am agreeing the patterns have value and am only trying to help people interpret the results. Also, I agree that you, Stacey, and we are doing our best to provide and support the very best in video. Finally, I believe these discussion help enthusiasts see "under the hood" about the level of detail needed for quality video, which by itself is a great goal.
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post #286 of 298 Old 12-11-2014, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronoclast View Post
Anyone? The Oppo filters this on the same content but the Lumagen doesn't.
I highly doubt the Oppo has the ICP issue. So it is not filtering this, it doesn't exist in the first place because they do MPEG decode of interlaced source correctly.

Also the Radiance CUE filter must receive the source with ICP at the original resolution. If you have the DVD player set to scale video that has ICP that makes it a totally different problem.

So, comparing the Oppo output verses the Radiance filtering the output from a DVD player with the ICP issue is not a valid comparison.

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post #287 of 298 Old 12-11-2014, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
I highly doubt the Oppo has the ICP issue. So it is not filtering this, it doesn't exist in the first place because they do MPEG decode of interlaced source correctly.

Also the Radiance CUE filter must receive the source with ICP at the original resolution. If you have the DVD player set to scale video that has ICP that makes it a totally different problem.

So, comparing the Oppo output verses the Radiance filtering the output from a DVD player with the ICP issue is not a valid comparison.
I think there's some confusion in what I was saying. I only use an Oppo 103 for DVDs. This is an example of what I'm seeing.

When playing DVDs on the Oppo set to Source Direct which means the 2020 is upscaling 480i to 1080p60, you can see in the picture on the edge of red along the the gray there is jagged streaking. I see this whenever there's solid red. The CUE filter makes no difference on or off. This doesn't show in the picture that well so it's a lot more apparent in person.

http://i.imgur.com/jMVWyao.jpg

For comparison's sake, this is how it looks when the Oppo is set to 1080p so it's handling the upscaling. It doesn't have any jagged streaking.

http://i.imgur.com/ByffQ8N.jpg

Both the 2020 and Oppo have their latest firmware.

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Last edited by chronoclast; 12-11-2014 at 11:41 PM.
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post #288 of 298 Old 12-12-2014, 01:14 AM - Thread Starter
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chronoclast:
Okay. I thought from your description you were talking about an ICP issue.

Is the Oppo output and the Radiance output set to 4:2:2? If not, please try 4:2:2 for output from both. Make sure all Radiance enhancements, including Darbee DVP (which is on by default) are turned off in the Radiance. Enhancements can cause issues, and the issue like this and would be increased if the Radiance receives and SD sourcea and scales it, rather than an HD source.

We will need to look at the source and see for ourselves since you say the pictures don't show it as well as in person. What DVD is this from? If it is available we will buy it to evaluate.

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Last edited by jrp; 12-12-2014 at 01:21 AM.
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post #289 of 298 Old 12-12-2014, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
chronoclast:
Okay. I thought from your description you were talking about an ICP issue.

Is the Oppo output and the Radiance output set to 4:2:2? If not, please try 4:2:2 for output from both. Make sure all Radiance enhancements, including Darbee DVP (which is on by default) are turned off in the Radiance. Enhancements can cause issues, and the issue would be increased if the Radiance receives and SD sourcea and scales it, rather than an HD source.

We will need to look at the source and see for ourselves since you say the pictures don't show it as well as in person. What DVD is this from? If it is available we will buy it to evaluate.
Oppo and Radiance were both set to 4:2:2 output and the Darbee and all enhancements were turned off when I took the pictures.

The example pictures are from Sherlock Hound. Another easy way to see this issue is on any DVD that has a piracy warning at the start with the letters in red against a black background, like Mulholland Drive.

Any DVDs of the show Futurama exhibit this issue well too. The main character wears a red jacket and it's digital animation so things are often not moving.

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post #290 of 298 Old 12-12-2014, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Oppo and Radiance were both set to 4:2:2 output and the Darbee and all enhancements were turned off when I took the pictures.

The example pictures are from Sherlock Hound. Another easy way to see this issue is on any DVD that has a piracy warning at the start with the letters in red against a black background, like Mulholland Drive.

Any DVDs of the show Futurama exhibit this issue well too. The main character wears a red jacket and it's digital animation so things are often not moving.
Thanks for the information.

One concern I have has to due to players trying to "enhance" SD material. The reason SDI options were popular in the DVD era is that these enhancements could not be defeated, and were actuality damaging the video. The SDI option bypassed these "enhancements" and so provided a much better picture.

Given the legacy of Bluray players also having DVD decoder, and potentially those "enhancements," the issue you see could actually be the Oppo MPEG decoder enabling some "enhancement" that may not be able to be defeated while outputting SD. I don't know if this is the case or not.

If you have different DVD player, or some similar material on a DVR that can output both SD and HD for SD source, you might want to check them out. The problem is there is no way to know if they also have such an issue, and for cable/satellite, the higher compression may this SD output issue worse.

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post #291 of 298 Old 12-12-2014, 03:10 PM
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Thanks for the information.

One concern I have has to due to players trying to "enhance" SD material. The reason SDI options were popular in the DVD era is that these enhancements could not be defeated, and were actuality damaging the video. The SDI option bypassed these "enhancements" and so provided a much better picture.

Given the legacy of Bluray players also having DVD decoder, and potentially those "enhancements," the issue you see could actually be the Oppo MPEG decoder enabling some "enhancement" that may not be able to be defeated while outputting SD. I don't know if this is the case or not.

If you have different DVD player, or some similar material on a DVR that can output both SD and HD for SD source, you might want to check them out. The problem is there is no way to know if they also have such an issue, and for cable/satellite, the higher compression may this SD output issue worse.
I haven't seen any reports that the Oppo enhances anything when outputting source direct other than the NR issue from the QDEO. The jaggedness differs in appearance some on the discs I've seen it on. Could this be in the discs' encodes and I'm only seeing it now because the Radiance's scaler is retaining more detail than the Oppo's scaler? If that's the case I'll live with it as the PQ from the Radiance's upscaling is better than the Oppo's otherwise.

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post #292 of 298 Old 12-12-2014, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I haven't seen any reports that the Oppo enhances anything when outputting source direct other than the NR issue from the QDEO. The jaggedness differs in appearance some on the discs I've seen it on. Could this be in the discs' encodes and I'm only seeing it now because the Radiance's scaler is retaining more detail than the Oppo's scaler? If that's the case I'll live with it as the PQ from the Radiance's upscaling is better than the Oppo's otherwise.
I am glad you agree the Radiance NoRing(TM) scaling is superior.

I do not know if the issue you see is specific to the disc or not. You could try a similarly saturated disc from another source and see if you get similar results. One thing you can look at is the bit-rate at that section of the disc. Many players have a feature to enable showing the bit rate on the screen, but I am not sure if the Oppo does.

A lower bit rate would tend to imply there are going to be issues with the encoding itself, especially with sharp-edged highly-saturated colors. This is because high compression throws out high frequencies and much more so for Chroma than Luma. So if a higher bit rate eliminate the issue, it is disc specific. If not, it is harder to determine the source.

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I am glad you agree the Radiance NoRing(TM) scaling is superior.

I do not know if the issue you see is specific to the disc or not. You could try a similarly saturated disc from another source and see if you get similar results. One thing you can look at is the bit-rate at that section of the disc. Many players have a feature to enable showing the bit rate on the screen, but I am not sure if the Oppo does.

A lower bit rate would tend to imply there are going to be issues with the encoding itself, especially with sharp-edged highly-saturated colors. This is because high compression throws out high frequencies and much more so for Chroma than Luma. So if a higher bit rate eliminate the issue, it is disc specific. If not, it is harder to determine the source.
I didn't think of testing the Oppo set to 480i output. When set to that the jaggies disappear completely. The lines are all smooth. The image quality degrades slightly since the Oppo's processor isn't being bypassed but the Radiance is still handling upscaling/deinterlacing to 1080p. Whether set to Source Direct or 480i, it's a 480i signal from the Oppo either way so the Radiance handles it the same right? I suspect it's an issue with the Oppo's Source Direct output.

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doesn't this look like a chroma delay problem ? Have you tried adjusting the delay for the Cr channel on the Radiance ? Should be worth a try. I could imagine that the delay is generally present, you're just noticing it much more on animated content.
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doesn't this look like a chroma delay problem ? Have you tried adjusting the delay for the Cr channel on the Radiance ? Should be worth a try. I could imagine that the delay is generally present, you're just noticing it much more on animated content.
This sorta helps. It clears up the jaggies on lower red saturations but higher saturations are still being a problem. When I adjust it some levels of higher saturation gets better while others get worse and vice versa. I can't seem to find a sweet spot that smooths it all out.

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I didn't think of testing the Oppo set to 480i output. When set to that the jaggies disappear completely. The lines are all smooth. The image quality degrades slightly since the Oppo's processor isn't being bypassed but the Radiance is still handling upscaling/deinterlacing to 1080p. Whether set to Source Direct or 480i, it's a 480i signal from the Oppo either way so the Radiance handles it the same right? I suspect it's an issue with the Oppo's Source Direct output.
A 480i signal will be handled the same by the Radiance, independent of the Oppo "Source Direct," or "480i" output settong. Since they look different the Oppo is handling them differently. You can confirm both as 480i by pressing the OK button on the Lumagen remote and the input mode will show on the status screen.

Fudoh is correct to have you try the Chroma offsets. As you noticed it is difficult to get Chroma and Luma timing perfect due to the lower resolution of the Chroma. So best bet is to find a selection that balances the various Chroma saturation levels.

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I've got it now. I was too close to the TV when I was first adjusting it. Setting the Cr channel's delay to -0.5625 clears it all up. Thank you both for helping.

Panasonic TC-P60ST30, Ideal-Lume Bias Light, Chromapure, i1 Display 3 Pro
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