Lumagen Radiance 20XX Support Thread - Page 11 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 321 Old 12-30-2014, 12:33 PM
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Thanks, Gordon. I'll follow this up in the Mini 3D thread.
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post #302 of 321 Old 12-30-2014, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Please reread my above posts on Chroma bandwidth. The Chroma Burst test pattern is not a good indicator of Chroma bandwidth for real video for anything that is actually processing the video as it has out-of-bound frequency components. It cannot be used to imply there is some "undetectable with normal video images" roll off of Chroma. The Chroma Burst pattern is useful, but not for this.

It is true that no filter is perfect, but the Chroma bandwidth of the Radiance with real world video is simply excellent. The Radiance - since it is processing the video and converting 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 and back - behaves exactly as it should with the Chroma Burst pattern.

That said, all current Radiance units have the same architecture and perform essentially the same. The 2XXX units do have improved precision compared to the RadianceMini/XS/XD/XE.

I use the Color Space Evaluation pattern and I don't see banding on color bars or burst patterns. The color transitions are smooth. Am I using the wrong pattern?


Edit: also checked the Luma Multiburst Linear pattern and Luma Wedge pattern (below) on the S&M disc and there was no sign of high-frequency roll-off. None of the patterns showed dimming and all have fine detail.



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post #303 of 321 Old 12-31-2014, 02:27 PM
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No 4k on the 20XX? Ouch!
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post #304 of 321 Old 01-01-2015, 07:38 PM
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1- geometry correction - is this aspect ratio selection?
2- artifact reduction - noise reduction?

3- Looking at the block diagram in owners manual, it appears artifact reduction and geometry correction happens after deinterlacer. Is noise reduction more effective on progressive images?

4a- some sources output video(speaking sd of course) in original aspect ratio. I.e pillar boxed for 4:3. Is it better to out all content in full setting and have lumagen pillar box or zoom in (4:3 letterbox) after deinterlacer as block diagram suggest?

4b-is noise reduction more effective before aspect ratio adjustment? I am guessing zooming in on 4:3 lbx sources is considered scaling and can confuse noise reduction?

4c- do you suggest deinterlacer->noise reduction->darbe(assuming it happens here)->aspect ration control->scaling->color correction?

5- where in the chain darbe is applied?

6- can lumagen pass through dolby atmos, dts x codecs? Via fw possibly?

7- is there a setting in edid section to force pal/50hz output?

8a-Is there a way to have auto aspect ratio automatically apply masking on 2.35:1 image? I have some films with burned subtitles outside picture, I cover with masking.

8b- can auto aspect ratio detect 4:3 lbx (sd) image that are placed on the top part of the screen? I have some films that have the video moved up to leave room for burned in subtitles.

Thank you

Last edited by uderman; 01-01-2015 at 08:00 PM.
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post #305 of 321 Old 01-01-2015, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uderman View Post
1- geometry correction - is this aspect ratio selection?
2- artifact reduction - noise reduction?

3- Looking at the block diagram in owners manual, it appears artifact reduction and geometry correction happens after deinterlacer. Is noise reduction more effective on progressive images?

4a- some sources output video(speaking sd of course) in original aspect ratio. I.e pillar boxed for 4:3. Is it better to out all content in full setting and have lumagen pillar box or zoom in (4:3 letterbox) after deinterlacer as block diagram suggest?

4b-is noise reduction more effective before aspect ratio adjustment? I am guessing zooming in on 4:3 lbx sources is considered scaling and can confuse noise reduction?

4c- do you suggest deinterlacer->noise reduction->darbe(assuming it happens here)->aspect ration control->scaling->color correction?

5- where in the chain darbe is applied?

6- can lumagen pass through dolby atmos, dts x codecs? Via fw possibly?

7- is there a setting in edid section to force pal/50hz output?

8a-Is there a way to have auto aspect ratio automatically apply masking on 2.35:1 image? I have some films with burned subtitles outside picture, I cover with masking.

8b- can auto aspect ratio detect 4:3 lbx (sd) image that are placed on the top part of the screen? I have some films that have the video moved up to leave room for burned in subtitles.

1- geometry correction for the Radiance is aspect ratio selection, plus cropping and masking.
2- artifact reduction includes the noise reduction.

3- Artifact reduction and geometry correction happens after deinterlacer.

3a- I expect that noise reduction has the effectiveness on interlace and progressive assuming they have relatively the same initial quality.

4a- Output sources exactly as in the source and allow the Radiance

4b-Hard to say, but I believe noise reduction at the source resolution may have a slight edge given there are no extra pixels added by the scaling of the aspect ratio correction. Noise reduction (and Darbee DVP(TM)) are area based and extra pixels after scaling reduces the effective area the algorithm can look at.

4c- Deinterlacer->noise reduction->edge enhancement->darbee->aspect ratio control & scaling (as one operation)->color correction is the order in the Radiance and we think the prefered order.

5- See 4c for Darbee position in the pipeline

6- The Radance units (except the RadianceXD) can pass through Dolby Atmos. I assume DTS X is like Atmos and encoded with the same data formatting as DTS Master and so the Radiance should be able to pass it. I talked with the tech guy from Dolby at CEDIA and he assured me anything that passes Dolby TrueHD can pass Atmos. We have at least one system doing so, but I believe the owner did manually select Atmos somehow. So Dolby's statement may come with caveats. I do not have any info on DTS X. So the jury is out on DTS X for now. If someone is able to test DTS X with a Radiance let us know your results.

7- I think you mean for a source in front of the Radiance. Using the Radiance manual EDID you can turn off 60 Hertz formats if you like.

8a-The Radiance will apply the selected output mask for the selected output style. So I do not think we can do this with auto-aspect at the moment. You can do this manually by associating different output styles having different output mask settings with different memory selections (MEMA to MEMD).

8b- The Radiance uses the number of blank lines at the top as part of its auto-aspect processing. So if films have the video moved up to leave room for burned in subtitles it would defeat the auto aspect processing.

Jim Peterson
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post #306 of 321 Old 01-02-2015, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
1- geometry correction for the Radiance is aspect ratio selection, plus cropping and masking.
2- artifact reduction includes the noise reduction.

3- Artifact reduction and geometry correction happens after deinterlacer.

3a- I expect that noise reduction has the effectiveness on interlace and progressive assuming they have relatively the same initial quality.

4a- Output sources exactly as in the source and allow the Radiance

4b-Hard to say, but I believe noise reduction at the source resolution may have a slight edge given there are no extra pixels added by the scaling of the aspect ratio correction. Noise reduction (and Darbee DVP(TM)) are area based and extra pixels after scaling reduces the effective area the algorithm can look at.

4c- Deinterlacer->noise reduction->edge enhancement->darbee->aspect ratio control & scaling (as one operation)->color correction is the order in the Radiance and we think the prefered order.

5- See 4c for Darbee position in the pipeline

6- The Radance units (except the RadianceXD) can pass through Dolby Atmos. I assume DTS X is like Atmos and encoded with the same data formatting as DTS Master and so the Radiance should be able to pass it. I talked with the tech guy from Dolby at CEDIA and he assured me anything that passes Dolby TrueHD can pass Atmos. We have at least one system doing so, but I believe the owner did manually select Atmos somehow. So Dolby's statement may come with caveats. I do not have any info on DTS X. So the jury is out on DTS X for now. If someone is able to test DTS X with a Radiance let us know your results.

7- I think you mean for a source in front of the Radiance. Using the Radiance manual EDID you can turn off 60 Hertz formats if you like.

8a-The Radiance will apply the selected output mask for the selected output style. So I do not think we can do this with auto-aspect at the moment. You can do this manually by associating different output styles having different output mask settings with different memory selections (MEMA to MEMD).

8b- The Radiance uses the number of blank lines at the top as part of its auto-aspect processing. So if films have the video moved up to leave room for burned in subtitles it would defeat the auto aspect processing.
thank you!!!
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post #307 of 321 Old 01-02-2015, 09:29 AM
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If they decided to go with rec.2020 colorspace for 4K Bluray disc and 4K displays with rec.2020 colorspace capabilities start to appear, can current radiance units keep up?

I understand it wont input 4K but can it upscale 1080p Blurays and convert to rec.2020 colorspace?

Can a fw update allow 4K60 output to be in rec.2020 and calibration controls act accordingly?

I am trying to decide between a 1080p and 4K unit. I don't own a 4K display yet but if it's future proof enough, I will go with 2144.


last question, I have an already calibrated Pioneer last gen plasma. Do you recommend I run auto calibration on this input or an input with default settings(none-calibrated) does it matter?

Last edited by uderman; 01-02-2015 at 10:12 AM.
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post #308 of 321 Old 01-02-2015, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uderman View Post
If they decided to go with rec.2020 colorspace for 4K Bluray disc and 4K displays with rec.2020 colorspace capabilities start to appear, can current radiance units keep up?

I understand it won't input 4K but can it upscale 1080p Blurays and convert to rec.2020 colorspace?

Can a fw update allow 4K60 output to be in rec.2020 and calibration controls act accordingly?

I am trying to decide between a 1080p and 4K unit. I don't own a 4K display yet but if it's future proof enough, I will go with 2144.

last question, I have an already calibrated Pioneer last gen plasma. Do you recommend I run auto calibration on this input or an input with default settings(none-calibrated) does it matter?
It may be possible to upgrade the 21XX units for Rec 2020 colorspace in the future, but not the Mini/XS/XD/XE units as their FPGA's are full and the 2020 color space is expected to add gates in the FPGA. Until we implement the 2020 color space we will not know if it fits in the 20XX units or not, and we are not even certain on the 21XX units yet.

If we implement Rec 2020 colorspace, it is only needed for Rec 2020 encoded disc's. The auto calibration software and Radiance would both need updates, but assuming the updates get done, it would be possible to auto calibrate in Rec 2020.

-----

I recommend the Pioneer be in a default state. You may be able to get a good calibration with the post-calibrated Plasma, and you can try first if you like. If there is going to be an issue it would be due to the primaries being pulled in too far, or to non-linearity the TV/projectors induce in their calibration hardware due to their use of a non-linear color space for their controls.

Choose a color mode (names might be something like normal, user) that is reasonably linear, and has the primary and secondary points at or outside the Rec 709 triangle. Turn "dynamic" features off (e.g. frame interpolation and dynamic contrast). Set black and white levels with the Pioneer controls and the Contrast2 and Contrast1 patterns in the Radiance. We also suggest you consider calibrating the 100% White color temperature manually with display controls as well. This is required with Chromapure, but may not be needed with either Calman or Lightspace since they can do the calibration of 100% white as part of the auto-cal. See our TechTip 2 for some hints on calibration that can be applied to autocal.

Jim Peterson
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post #309 of 321 Old 01-02-2015, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
It may be possible to upgrade the 21XX units for Rec 2020 colorspace in the future, but not the Mini/XS/XD/XE units as their FPGA's are full and the 2020 color space is expected to add gates in the FPGA. Until we implement the 2020 color space we will not know if it fits in the 20XX units or not, and we are not even certain on the 21XX units yet.

If we implement Rec 2020 colorspace, it is only needed for Rec 2020 encoded disc's. The auto calibration software and Radiance would both need updates, but assuming the updates get done, it would be possible to auto calibrate in Rec 2020.

-----

I recommend the Pioneer be in a default state. You may be able to get a good calibration with the post-calibrated Plasma, and you can try first if you like. If there is going to be an issue it would be due to the primaries being pulled in too far, or to non-linearity the TV/projectors induce in their calibration hardware due to their use of a non-linear color space for their controls.

Choose a color mode (names might be something like normal, user) that is reasonably linear, and has the primary and secondary points at or outside the Rec 709 triangle. Turn "dynamic" features off (e.g. frame interpolation and dynamic contrast). Set black and white levels with the Pioneer controls and the Contrast2 and Contrast1 patterns in the Radiance. We also suggest you consider calibrating the 100% White color temperature manually with display controls as well. This is required with Chromapure, but may not be needed with either Calman or Lightspace since they can do the calibration of 100% white as part of the auto-cal. See our TechTip 2 for some hints on calibration that can be applied to autocal.
I am leaning towards 2144 in case I get a 4K display down the road. I am looking to place my order this weekend.

Since you said there is still room on 21xx units fpgas,

1- what are likely updates?

2- I will be using an hdmi switch then feed lumagen into preamp therefor

Source->hdmi switch->lumagen->pre-pro->display

Is there a limitation on hdmi for how many devices you can have in the same chain?

Thanks again
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post #310 of 321 Old 01-02-2015, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uderman View Post
I am leaning towards 2144 in case I get a 4K display down the road. I am looking to place my order this weekend.

Since you said there is still room on 21xx units fpgas,

1- what are likely updates?

2- I will be using an hdmi switch then feed lumagen into preamp therefore: Source->hdmi switch->lumagen->pre-pro->display. Is there a limitation on hdmi for how many devices you can have in the same chain?
1) I think we will do a Rec 2020 update for the 21XX sometime after it gets in the - as yet un-announced - Radiance Pro 4K input HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 units. This is some time away. I can say that for some time to come we will be limiting updates on current units to bug fixes since the Radiance Pro development is taking the bulk of our time at the moment.

2) Yes, there is a limit, but you are not close to being there.

Jim Peterson
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post #311 of 321 Old 01-11-2015, 11:38 PM
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If I may ask, masking only works with projectors? Will it work on a plasma TV?
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post #312 of 321 Old 01-12-2015, 12:08 AM
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If I may ask, masking only works with projectors? Will it work on a plasma TV?
Masking simply blacks out part of the image. It works with any display type.
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post #313 of 321 Old 01-12-2015, 12:26 AM
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Sorry, I meant will it keep the black bars on a plasma from turning gray during dark scenes? That was my greatest peeve with plasma.
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post #314 of 321 Old 01-12-2015, 12:57 AM
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Sorry, I meant will it keep the black bars on a plasma from turning gray during dark scenes? That was my greatest peeve with plasma.
I've never noticed that on my plasma. I don't think the Radiance can help with that; it sounds like a limitation in the display itself.
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post #315 of 321 Old 01-12-2015, 03:44 AM
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Thank you Scott. The Lumagen's mask feature is so cool it got me thinking about the black bars on my old Pioneer plasma. It was never calibrated, so that might have played a role in the bars appearing gray at times.
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post #316 of 321 Old 01-30-2015, 03:47 AM
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Lumagen Radiance 20XX Series (2021, 2022, 2041, 2042) New 012515 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Adds composite input option to 2022/2042 component inputs. Improvements to auto aspect detection. Added auto aspect detection capability to analog inputs (2022/2042). Fix for loss of video issues with chromebox and other HTPC type sources. Fix for constant height setup with certain 3D formats and scale bias off causing incorrect picture. Fix for test patterns with side-by-side or top-bottom 3D output. Expanded size limits for rs232 "ZY2" command to match onscreen menu limits. (Update time ~15 minutes @57k)

Download Link

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #317 of 321 Old Today, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
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1) I think we will do a Rec 2020 update for the 21XX sometime after it gets in the - as yet un-announced - Radiance Pro 4K input HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 units. This is some time away. .
.
Thank you for this info............what I was looking for.

Guess I'm in a holding pattern for HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 units....................................
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I was interested in rec2020 but after some digging I think current units wouldnt benefit from it.

Wouldnt you need a rec2020 source for rec2020 output? Current hd sources are encoded in rec709. Would a rec2020 output profile benefit rec709 sources?


I think current 21xx units are perfect. Some bug fixes are welcomed of course.

I just have an interesting idea. I dont know if its doable but I will say it anyway. Is it possible to implement a closed caption decoder into current lumagen units? My main display doesnt have one built in(its a monitor) and my other tvs wont decode cc when fed hdmi.

Its probably a very small code for the current fpgas. I dont know if there is enough market to spend the labor hour on it but it would be awesome.

Another question is will the new radiance pro have the same adv7800 for analog inputs? The same number of inputs?
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post #319 of 321 Unread Today, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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... I think current 21xx units are perfect. Some bug fixes are welcomed of course.

I just have an interesting idea. I dont know if its doable but I will say it anyway. Is it possible to implement a closed caption decoder into current lumagen units? My main display doesnt have one built in(its a monitor) and my other tvs wont decode cc when fed hdmi.

Its probably a very small code for the current fpgas. I dont know if there is enough market to spend the labor hour on it but it would be awesome.

Another question is will the new radiance pro have the same adv7800 for analog inputs? The same number of inputs?
Thanks for the kind words on the 21XX units. BTW: If you know of bugs that you have not sent information to us about, you can email support@lumagen.com, and we can keep track. We put a high priority on resolving significant bugs.

On closed-caption: Sorry, we have no plans to consider this.

The initial Radiance Pro model is HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 only (no analog). We continue to add to our Beta Site list for the Radiance Pro. If you are interested in being either an "Early Beta" site (help us with bugs, etc.) or a "Beta" site (later when things stabilize more), email us at support@lumagen.com. We just started collecting NDA's (Non-Disclosure Agreements) for the Radiance Pro Beta, and are sending out information on the Radiance Pro to those under NDA. We expect RadiancePro Beta shipments (Production Hardware, with Beta Software) to start in Q2.
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post #320 of 321 Unread Today, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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For anyone interested, I just posted a few things about the RadiancePro here:

http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum...3ab005bda8847c

Jim Peterson
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