Lumagen Radiance 20XX Support Thread - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 237 Old 06-19-2014, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I have started a thread on our support forum about the pipeline precision update and measuring precision in a digital device like the Radiance.

Here is a link if you are interested:

http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum...311f#msg_21654

Jim Peterson
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post #212 of 237 Old 06-19-2014, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by bgoering 

Possible IR conflict? Many cable/satellite boxes you can set up an alternate IR for the remote.
Just a guess - good luck


I guess I don't understand because I can't see how that would result in the Lumagen mistakenly throwing up the info screen. Could you explain
what course of action you might suggest?


And for Lumagen staff who might be looking at the thread: I still can not fast forward recorded programs (on my Scientific Atlanta PVR) without the Lumagen info screen popping on and covering
the image.

Any ideas?

Thanks.
The Info screen comes up when you send an extra carriage return (or send a IR "OK" key).

You can eliminate the extra carriage returns, or disable the "Status on carriage-return" feature. To disable it enter MENU 0927 and then do a Save.

If this does not help please feel free to contact us at support@lumagen.com for additional help.

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post #213 of 237 Old 06-19-2014, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex_t View Post
Hello.

New firmware for Radiance mini/XS/XD/XE/20xx/21xx :
Thanks for the heads up.

I have updated my 2041 with this new firmware, it seems to work well as a reference pattern generator with the new firmware. see link's for details.
MadVR - ArgyllCMS
Pitfalls of Meter Profiling

Thanks Lumagen for a job well done.

ss
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post #214 of 237 Old 06-20-2014, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex_t View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by M(c) 

I´ll give it a try ;-) thank you!!!


ok, let me know if it works
Unfortunately it didn´t work ;-(
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post #215 of 237 Old 06-20-2014, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Thanks for the heads up.

I have updated my 2041 with this new firmware, it seems to work well as a reference pattern generator with the new firmware. see link's for details.
MadVR - ArgyllCMS
Pitfalls of Meter Profiling

Thanks Lumagen for a job well done.

ss
Hello.

It's a good news that you have already checked the new firmware. Thank you for your feedback.

I'm french .... sorry for my english
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post #216 of 237 Old 06-20-2014, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by bgoering 

... The FF command on my RTI remote only sends a FF command to my PVR (not to my Oppo, as I mistakenly wrote above).
If you only send the FF command and it affects the Lumagen, that means there is an IR code conflict as suggested before. That is the FF command being sent is sufficiently the same as the Lumagen OK command that it brings up the Radiance status screen.

When there is a conflict the common solution (other than putting up with the conflict) is to switch to RS232 for one of the devices - the Radiance in this instance. When using RS-232 you can turn off the IR command input on the Radiance as mentioned by someone else earlier.

You could also create IR zones, and put "bugs" on the front of each unit. Then using a learning RF remote learn the FF, and other, commands and split them so they only go to the intended product. Perhaps the higher end RF remote control models of the Universal Remote or Harmony Remote have this "directed IR" feature.

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post #217 of 237 Old 06-21-2014, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Thanks for the heads up.

I have updated my 2041 with this new firmware, it seems to work well as a reference pattern generator with the new firmware. see link's for details.
MadVR - ArgyllCMS
Pitfalls of Meter Profiling

Thanks Lumagen for a job well done.

ss
That's good to read.

_________________________

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post #218 of 237 Old 06-24-2014, 02:11 AM
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Lumagen Radiance 20XX Series (2021, 2022, 2041, 2042) New 061014 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Fixes up a few bugs in some of the test patterns in the previous release. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

Download Link

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post #219 of 237 Old 06-25-2014, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
I have started a thread on our support forum about the pipeline precision update and measuring precision in a digital device like the Radiance.

Here is a link if you are interested:

http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum...311f#msg_21654
Luminance measurements can achieve 9-10 bits precision for comparative studies given enough data to get good statistics, the right set-up and careful attention to system stability. I've loaded the new firmware and the improvements you have made are easily measurable in my system, nice job.
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post #220 of 237 Old 06-25-2014, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Luminance measurements can achieve 9-10 bits precision for comparative studies given enough data to get good statistics, the right set-up and careful attention to system stability. I've loaded the new firmware and the improvements you have made are easily measurable in my system, nice job.
Thanks for your comments and congrats on the improvements in out-of-the-box level accuracy. Patrick spent a lot of time working on the improvements.

I believe you are saying a color probe can distinguish the "relative" resolution difference, and I agree. You can also potentially note the improvement as you say.

My point was referring to "absolute" precision. It is easier to distinguish two levels as slightly different, but since some where saying the absolute levels were off, I wanted to point out that the absolute accuracy of a color probe near black (some are better than others of course), and the level changes in displays, and projectors, preclude making judgments of absolute Radiance output level accuracy with a color probe. I believe making absolute measurements requires having a digital measurement device connected directly to the Radiance output. This is consistent with your post but I thought I would make the clarification.

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post #221 of 237 Old 06-25-2014, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
I believe making absolute measurements requires having a digital measurement device connected directly to the Radiance output. This is consistent with your post but I thought I would make the clarification.

Hello Jim, are you using a Hardware Waveform monitor to verify the output of the Lumagen as a pattern generator to confirm the improvements?


The best Waveform monitor with HDMI In with HDCP support is the Tektronix WFM5250 SDI/HDMI Waveform Monitor.

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post #222 of 237 Old 06-25-2014, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
I believe making absolute measurements requires having a digital measurement device connected directly to the Radiance output. This is consistent with your post but I thought I would make the clarification.
This is certainly true in the absence of a reference generator, and also the best way to do it because results are definitive. But transferring 8-bit RGB pattern values from a known reference to another generator is possible at better than 8-bit precision using current-day probes, not that it would be a very worthwhile thing to do given the low level of perceptual gains one would obtain from such an exercise.


edit:

As a follow-up to this post I repeated the random test set measurement of the effect of inserting the Lumagen into an eeColor calibrated signal chain. The colormetric error distributions of both configurations are now almost identical showing that the new firmware removes the perturbations seen previously. Also shown is the error distribution of the Lumagen 9^3 LUT correction (using CalMAN autocal).


Last edited by zoyd; 06-25-2014 at 06:25 PM.
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post #223 of 237 Old 06-26-2014, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hello Jim, are you using a Hardware Waveform monitor to verify the output of the Lumagen as a pattern generator to confirm the improvements?

The best Waveform monitor with HDMI In with HDCP support is the Tektronix WFM5250 SDI/HDMI Waveform Monitor.
[EDIT] We used an Accupel test pattern generator as the input reference and tested for changes to levels going through the Radiance.

A lot of the level improvement work was done and checked in Verilog simulations of the FPGA pipeline.

We (meaning Patrick) also wrote FPGA code to check the levels at several points in the Radiance pipeline (input, output, etc.). This allowed us to confirm the improvement on the actual hardware.
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post #224 of 237 Old 06-26-2014, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Zoid:

Thanks for the plots. Your before and after the Radiance is good data to see. The only issue might be that the display/projector may amplify any difference with its own internal precision issue.

The Radiance 9^3 results look good, but I think could be improved. What probe did you use? Were readings averaged for both the calibration and test phase? In any case I think your 9^3 also show that a 9^3 3D LUT in the Radiance is capable of an exceptional calibration.

Tom Huffman of Chromapure did a study of the 9^3 and after calibration tested 1000 random points in the RGB cube and I think the result were slightly better (hard to say exactly given the plot format is different). Tom did use a Kline K10, which would reduce the reading variance given how good it is in low light. Because of this, I believe the K10 probably helped Tom's 9^3 calibration accuracy. Wish I could afford one.

Tom's results provide another data point, and the thread his comments are in makes for interesting reading. Tom's results can be found here:
Comprehensive Data on Lumagen/ChromaPure LUT calibration of JVC Projector

Jim Peterson
Lumagen

Last edited by jrp; 06-26-2014 at 04:11 PM.
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post #225 of 237 Old 06-26-2014, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Zoid:

Thanks for the plots. Your before and after the Radiance is good data to see. The only issue might be that the display/projector may amplify any difference with its own internal precision issue.

The Radiance 9^3 results look good, but I think could be improved. What probe did you use? Were readings averaged for both the calibration and test phase? In any case I think your 9^3 also show that a 9^3 3D LUT in the Radiance is capable of an exceptional calibration.

Tom Huffman of Chromapure did a study of the 9^3 and after calibration tested 1000 random points in the RGB cube and I think the result were slightly better (hard to say exactly given the plot format is different). Tom did use a Kline K10, which would reduce the reading variance given how good it is in low light. Because of this, I believe the K10 probably helped Tom's 9^3 calibration accuracy. Wish I could afford one.

Tom's results provide another data point, and the thread his comments are in makes for interesting reading. Tom's results can be found here:
Comprehensive Data on Lumagen/ChromaPure LUT calibration of JVC Projector
yes, I've read that thread and Tom's methodology was inspired by my eeColor thread here, where I've shown the end-to-end system stability (precision) of the hardware I'm using is quite a bit less than the differences measured between the performance of various LUT solutions. I'm using an i1display pro profiled to a JETI 1211, check out this thread as to why you don't need a Klein to be able to do colorimetric analysis at this precision even at very low light levels (it just takes longer).

The difference between what Tom measured and I measured for the Radiance 9^3 residual error could be due to either the underlying (non)linearity of the different devices we were calibrating, the calibration software used (Chromapure/CalMAN) or a combination of the two. Even then the difference is pretty small, he measured 88% of the patches below 1 dE94 and I measured 80% below 1 dE2000.
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post #226 of 237 Old 06-26-2014, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Zoid:

Again good info, especially the D3 verses the K10. I did not expect there to be such good correlation to a K10 using a D3 class probe.

Also I agree that there is not a lot of difference in your results with the Radiance 9^3 and Tom's results. So, chalk it up to differences in using a different year's standard, or probe, or projector, or even the environment, or phase of the moon.

So, if I may, my conclusion on all this is:

1) The Radiance 5x5x5 3D LUT will provide good calibration results, but there is room for visible improvement, especially on displays and projectors with a non-linear response. For a reasonably linear display/projector, for many people, 5x5x5 is plenty.

2) The Radiance 9x9x9 provides excellent calibration results, and while there is room for "machine measurable improvement," there may be no "human visible improvement" to be had going to a larger 3D LUT, at least with all but the most problematic nonlinear displays/projectors.

3) The upcoming Radiance 21XX 17x17x17 is likely overkill, but will provide machine measurable improvement over the 9x9x9. For those who need to be certain they have the best possible results the 17x17x17 will provide them.

=====

BTW: I believe we should have the Radiance 21XX 17x17x17 3D LUT initial release about the end of July. I look forward to everyone's take on this once it is available.

Thanks to everyone taking part in this discussion. I enjoy learning new things and I certainly have reading the various threads on calibration here on AVS.

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post #227 of 237 Old 06-27-2014, 03:20 AM
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Jim,

I agree with your summary. Some might argue that any level of "machine measurable" improvement implies visible improvement, but this contradicts the whole notion of color difference metrics. Overkill is fine, you can think of it as having a high tolerance margin, just as long as it's put in context so people without a technical background don't have the wrong expectations, which you have done very nicely.
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post #228 of 237 Old 07-11-2014, 03:39 AM
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Lumagen Radiance 20XX Series (2021, 2022, 2041, 2042) New 070114 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Adds capability (for 2041/2042) to Auto output selection to select 4K output modes when appropriate based on the displays 4K EDID information---works with 4K Sony projectors.

A couple of APL test pattern fixups.

Speeds up test patterns.

Fix for sometimes incorrectly disabling a video output when changing between sources. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

Download Link

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post #229 of 237 Old 07-11-2014, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I will mention this here since we do not have a dedicated 21XX thread:

===============================

We just released an update (070214) for the 214X units that includes 4k60, 8-bit 4:2:0 output mode.

In addition the "Auto" output mode now is enabled for 4k devices (4K24, and 4K60) for the 214X units.

So far we have tested it on the Sony VW1100ES projector.

Let us know how it works for you.

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Lumagen

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post #230 of 237 Old 07-12-2014, 12:22 PM
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Lumagen Radiance 20XX Series (2021, 2022, 2041, 2042) New 070214 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Bugfix for issue that can blank output video to an output when switching memories in some cases. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

Download Link

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
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post #231 of 237 Old 07-14-2014, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Lumagen Radiance 20XX Series (2021, 2022, 2041, 2042) New 070214 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Bugfix for issue that can blank output video to an output when switching memories in some cases. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

Download Link

Thank you
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post #232 of 237 Old 07-14-2014, 05:26 PM
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Lumagen Radiance 20XX Series (2021, 2022, 2041, 2042) New 070314 Firmware Update


Release Notes


Fix for issue with rs232 test pattern usage that would often give a corrupted picture. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)


Download Link

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
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post #233 of 237 Old 07-15-2014, 04:44 PM
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Lumagen Radiance 20XX Series (2021, 2022, 2041, 2042) New 070414 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Another rs232 test pattern problem fixed.

An issue with screen being blank fixed.

Problem with using left arrow on remote for aspect changes fixed. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

Download Link

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post #234 of 237 Old 07-16-2014, 11:24 PM
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Lumagen Radiance 20XX Series (2021, 2022, 2041, 2042) New 070514 Firmware Update

Release Notes

One more fix for an issue with rs232 test pattern usage via calibration software. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

Download Link

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Lumagen Radiance 20XX Series (2021, 2022, 2041, 2042) New 070514 Firmware Update

Release Notes

One more fix for an issue with rs232 test pattern usage via calibration software. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

Download Link
Glad I waited!!
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post #236 of 237 Old 07-18-2014, 11:42 PM
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Lumagen Radiance 20XX Series (2021, 2022, 2041, 2042) New 070714 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Found 2 other issues with rs232 test pattern usage via calibration software.

Fixed timing issue causing video corruption on output1 on some units. (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

Download Link

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
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post #237 of 237 Old 07-21-2014, 11:43 PM
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Lumagen Radiance 20XX Series (2021, 2022, 2041, 2042) New 070814 Firmware Update

Release Notes

A fix for exiting test patterns when using vertical shift (bottom of screen left uncleared). (Update time ~3 minutes @57k)

Download Link

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
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