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post #1 of 33 Old 10-05-2013, 07:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I've got a ps2 and some old nintendo (nes,snes,n64) hardware I'd like to connect to my pioneer vsx-1127, and 55" LCD.

I've attempted to play Final Fantasy 7, which is a ps1 game, and I can't get it to display correctly via composite or component. It seems my receiver is limited to 480p.

I don't need anything super awesome, and I'm somewhat hesitant to spend 400$ or more on something like the XRGB-mini.

I'm sitting on a iscan plus auction, but it appears to have poor results for low res video games.

So basically I'm looking for people's opinions on what route I should go. I'm not a hard core retro gamer, but sometimes I'd like to be able to play some classic ps1/2 and nes/snes games on my big LCD without my eyes bleeding. I can stand the retro look, but not if the upscaling is horrid (my receiver's upscaling is decent, so any box I get would either have to be as good, or better than my receiver).

Thanks smile.gif
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post #2 of 33 Old 10-05-2013, 07:25 AM
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If you can pick up an iScan Plus v2 for $20-30, it's not your worst choice - it just limits you to s-video for your input signal.

A better choice would be something that allows component or RGBs. An iScan Pro has a component input and you can add a RGB/YUV transcoder for your RGB sources. If you want to limit yourself to component, you can at least use a PS2 for your PS1 games and using component output from there.

Your receiver certainly also accepts 480i, it just doesn't like / know 240p.
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post #3 of 33 Old 10-05-2013, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

If you can pick up an iScan Plus v2 for $20-30, it's not your worst choice - it just limits you to s-video for your input signal.

A better choice would be something that allows component or RGBs. An iScan Pro has a component input and you can add a RGB/YUV transcoder for your RGB sources. If you want to limit yourself to component, you can at least use a PS2 for your PS1 games and using component output from there.
Yeah, I only have a ps2, and not a ps1, so that's what I'll be using.

I would prefer going the component input route as the quality difference is pretty astonishing. input wise my receiver only does composite, component and HDMI.

The iscan pro is looking to be somewhat rare. I'm not having much luck in finding one.
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Your receiver certainly also accepts 480i, it just doesn't like / know 240p.
Yes indeed it does. I meant to say 480i.
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post #4 of 33 Old 10-05-2013, 09:50 AM
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The iscan pro is looking to be somewhat rare
not really. I mean it's a 12 year old piece of hardware, so you cannot just pick one up when you like, but compared to most other processors it's pretty easy to find and should show up on ebay at least every other week. $30 to 70 are reasonable for an iScan Pro unit. Starting at $100 you can usually pick up an iScan HD, which does upscaling, has RGB inputs in addition to component and does output to HDMI, not just VGA and component.
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post #5 of 33 Old 10-05-2013, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll clarify that a little. I'd prefer to use the component output of the ps2. And HDMI to my receiver, though component is acceptable as well. DVI should be fine too, as I should only need a cheap dvi->hdmi dongle.

I could probably manage with ypbpr over a vga/dsub connector (by hacking a dsub cable into rca), but that's a bit of a pain.
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post #6 of 33 Old 10-05-2013, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

not really. I mean it's a 12 year old piece of hardware, so you cannot just pick one up when you like, but compared to most other processors it's pretty easy to find and should show up on ebay at least every other week. $30 to 70 are reasonable for an iScan Pro unit. Starting at $100 you can usually pick up an iScan HD, which does upscaling, has RGB inputs in addition to component and does output to HDMI, not just VGA and component.
Ah, I didn't realize it was that old.

I have seen some iscan HDs for $200-300 or so (after shipping/import/etc). Question is, is the quality/performance of the XRGBs so much better that you might as well pay an extra couple hundred for the new device?
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post #7 of 33 Old 10-05-2013, 02:03 PM
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Cannot anwer that in general. Really depends on time you spend with your classic systems and what you're willing to invest. Yes, the XRGBs are better, but yes, they're also more expensive and they are certainly also too complicated to some people to use or have fun with them.
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post #8 of 33 Old 10-05-2013, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I honestly don't spend a lot of time gaming, and I haven't had a way to play my classic games at all in years.

Im hoping to spend more time in the future on some classic games, ones that I haven't played in a while, and others that I missed entirely.

This is why I'm hesitant to spend too much, but at the same time, a crap converter would make it less likely I'd want to play.
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post #9 of 33 Old 10-05-2013, 02:44 PM
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A linedoubler like the iScan Pro is really no crap. Just set up an automated ebay search and give it a little time. It's a very good entry level linedoubler, perfectly suited for your needs (minus the RGB compatibility).
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post #10 of 33 Old 10-05-2013, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input smile.gif

I set up a couple ebay searches for both the pro and the hd earlier, so we'll see how that goes.
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post #11 of 33 Old 11-01-2013, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I managed to snag a DVDO HD+ for $195 usd shipped, which isn't too bad. shipping was a large fraction of it actually.

Have to say, it looks a lot cleaner than the el-cheapo chinese box I got just to see how bad it'd be.

I don't have the best camera, so its hard to really show what the results are like, but I'll attach the best example.



I probably could have lived with the horrible jaggies I get with the cheap chinese pos, but this is so much easier on the eyes.

Thanks again for the input smile.gif

append: another example just for kicks.
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post #12 of 33 Old 11-02-2013, 04:41 PM
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Nice to hear ! If you got a VGA input on your display, you could consider adding a MiniSLG or SLG3000 unit in between to apply CRT-like scanlines to the image. Some people prefer an original CRT look to the softer upscaled image.....
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post #13 of 33 Old 11-02-2013, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

Nice to hear ! If you got a VGA input on your display, you could consider adding a MiniSLG or SLG3000 unit in between to apply CRT-like scanlines to the image. Some people prefer an original CRT look to the softer upscaled image.....
Neither my TV nor the receiver has VGA, but both have component, so it might be possible to jerry-rig something. I'm definitely interested to see how that looks over what I have. But to be honest, I do like how it looks so far. I'm no purist.

I do have a small question. I've been reading that this unit doesn't actually handle 240p as 240p, but treats it as 480i? Is that the case? And if so, is there any way to convince it to just upscale, rather than trying to deinterlace a non interlaced input? I think things like the VP20/30/50pro have that option. And will it look much different at all if that is possible?

I know that the cheap ebay scaler (20-30$?) I bought (for kicks) was definitely not dealing with 240p properly, it was SUPER jaggy, it really did look horrible. The difference between the two is quite shocking.



Of course I also had the aspect set wrong there.. whups. but yeah, looks like butt.
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post #14 of 33 Old 11-03-2013, 06:16 AM
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There's the SLGHD, a component version of the SLG3000, which you could use for scanlines if you connect your iScan HD to the TV through component.

The iScan HD/HD+ handles 240p quite ok, don't worry about that.
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post #15 of 33 Old 11-03-2013, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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There's the SLGHD, a component version of the SLG3000, which you could use for scanlines if you connect your iScan HD to the TV through component.
I'm currently using DVI->HDMI to connect the iscan to my receiver, and then plain hdmi from receiver to tv. But I probably can grab a hd15 -> component cable to hook the iScan to the SLGHD that way.

Would you think there'd be a problem putting the SLGHD between the iScan HD and my receiver? I've currently set the iScan HD to upscale directly to 1080p so I don't get the slight fuzzyness my receiver and/or tv seem to impart when they upscale. The SLGHD description seems to say it doesn't do 1080p input.
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The iScan HD/HD+ handles 240p quite ok, don't worry about that.
Ah, when I was reading through your reviews, they seemed to state that the HD/HD+ is deinterlacing the progressive input which isn't exactly the best way to do it as far as I can tell, and only the VP20/30 with the ABT102 card did "proper" scanning. I'm rather curious about the inner workings of this stuff.
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post #16 of 33 Old 11-03-2013, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Got my NES working too! Thank god its an original with composite. Much easier than trying to hack the nes to output rgb or convert the RF to something else.

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post #17 of 33 Old 11-04-2013, 02:45 AM
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Whenever you use a SLG device (no matter if through VGA or component) you'd have to set the processor to linedoubling (=480p output), otherwise the scanlines won't match up with the signal.

Technically the SiI503/504 processor applies deinterlacing to the 15khz input, but with 240p signal it doesn't affect quality. You can test this with any title that uses 30Hz flicker effects to simulate transparency (often used for shadow effects). If they show up fine, then 240p is handled properly (or isn't affected by the deinterlacing). If you get deinterlacing errors (stripes or solid grey), then the deinterlacing is affecting the 240p signal.
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post #18 of 33 Old 11-04-2013, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

Whenever you use a SLG device (no matter if through VGA or component) you'd have to set the processor to linedoubling (=480p output), otherwise the scanlines won't match up with the signal.
Ah I see. So I'd have to deal with upscaling from either my receiver or tv. I think the receiver is better at it than the tv is, but I think both impart some amount of blur to the picture.
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Technically the SiI503/504 processor applies deinterlacing to the 15khz input, but with 240p signal it doesn't affect quality. You can test this with any title that uses 30Hz flicker effects to simulate transparency (often used for shadow effects). If they show up fine, then 240p is handled properly (or isn't affected by the deinterlacing). If you get deinterlacing errors (stripes or solid grey), then the deinterlacing is affecting the 240p signal.
That's good to know.

I think I'll give it a shot at any rate, the SLGHD is inexpensive enough that I don't mind playing around with it.
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post #19 of 33 Old 11-29-2013, 05:11 PM
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How bad is the added lag from the DVDO box?  I have a composite/Svideo to HDMI Scaler from Gefen TV and it does an excellent job converting NES/SNES/Genesis 240p to a variety of outputs over HDMI.  These units run about $150.  Only quip I have with them is they do add a bit of latency that is noticable (at least to me) on twitch action games such as Megaman 2 or Contra for example.  Not to say its very bad latency, as I have worked with other format converters that were far worse, but I'm pretty anal and I

can sense the difference of it.  I would venture to guess the added latency is somewhere on the order of 32 to 48 ms, ie *just barely* noticable.

 

Also, it seems the video output "hiccups" periodically, like a memory buffer is being filled/flushed or something.  Again, nothing terrible, but for a person like me, noticable.

That said, the audio/video output is excellent, and looks better than what than what my 720p Samsung "4500 plasma manages via straight Yellow composite input.

 

Any thoughts/info on the lowest latency converters/scalers?  Does composite generally convert to component with less latency than say to HDMI for example?

 

Josh

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post #20 of 33 Old 11-29-2013, 05:57 PM
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The hiccups are caused by the unlocked output refresh rate. Basically no v-sync, but straight conversion to 59.94Hz, although the input might be slightly off. DVDOs will lock the output to input, hence no more hiccups.

The earlier DVDO processors add about 2 frames of lag (~ 33ms).

The linedoublers with the lowest lag (1-2ms) are the XRGB processors. Check my page (see my signature) for reviews on all of them. Or the Micomsoft special right here: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/micomsoft.html

HDMI is possible without lag just as well (see the DVDO Edge or 50Pro which manage analogue 240p to 1080p HDMI in 6ms), it's just often done wrong.
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post #21 of 33 Old 12-03-2013, 01:32 PM
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Would you recommend a DVDO 50 /50 pro for upscaling some 240p content?  Does the DVDO 50 compare to a VP30 with the add-in ABT deinterlacing card?

 

Thanks

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post #22 of 33 Old 12-04-2013, 04:11 AM
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The VP30/ABT102 combo is almost identical to the VP50. The VP50 adds proper 1080i deinterlacing, a slightly better A/D stage, but also has the same limitations, e.g. no proper 240p recognition (it's handled like 480i).

THe 50Pro does properly recognize and handle 240p, but it just doesn't look good. While the VP30 without ABT102 at least looks decent with 240p sources, the 50Pro and Edge add so much ringing, that most other processors simply do a better job. DVDO's 480i handling is great. 480p is ok. If your focus is really 240p though, you should not choose a DVDO processor. You can find all the comparison screenshots on my page (see my sig).
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post #23 of 33 Old 12-04-2013, 05:38 PM
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So, an RGB/SCART 240p source converted to component will become degraded through the converter (50 non pro)?  Or will it not work at all? This is my deal, I am getting the SCART cables and converter to component for SNES and Genesis.  I have already verified my set actually has a 720/240p mode and looks great straight in with component.  The NES, however, with its

composite only out, looks terribly shite on the set.  I was hoping the VP50 would at least clean it to an acceptable level with minimal lag.  I currently have a GefenTV

composite to HDMI scaler, which improves the NES visuals greatly, albeit with ringing and about 32ms of lag.

 

That said, I also want the DVDO to upscale some PS2 and DirecTV SD interlaced stuff.  Are you saying the VP50 (non pro version) wont accept a 240p signal at all?  Although

my SCART setups will run fine without it, I was kind of hoping to run them through it at least as a switcher.  Any additional info would be helpful.

 

Thanks

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post #24 of 33 Old 12-04-2013, 06:42 PM
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The NES, however, with its composite only out, looks terribly shite on the set. I was hoping the VP50 would at least clean it to an acceptable level with minimal lag
no. Get a NESRGB board instead.
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Are you saying the VP50 (non pro version) wont accept a 240p signal at all?
it accepts 240p fine, but it gets treated as 480i.
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post #25 of 33 Old 12-04-2013, 07:24 PM
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So now you have me worried,neither the NES, Genesis, and SNES will do good on the VP50.  I'll look for another option...

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post #26 of 33 Old 12-05-2013, 05:30 PM
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Fudoh, is a VP30 without the ABT-102 card worth getting in my case?  The ABT-102 is for de-interlacing right?  Does that mean it has no effect on 240p input processing?

 

I guess what I'm asking is, other than *better* deinterlacing of 480i, what advantage is the ABT-102?  How bad is the de-interlacing abilities of the VP30 without the add on?

 

I'm still at a loss as to what I can use to feed GC/Wii 480p component in, PS2 480i / 240p component in, DC VGA in,  8 and 16 bit systems component in, and SD satellite TV

 

in and have a processor that will output acceptable outputs to my 720p Samsung plasma.   I dont want to pay $250 for a VP 30 only to find out it cant pass 240p

 

component sources or adds mucho lag to 480i or 480p sources.  Do I really need the add in card?

 

 

Would a stand alone EDGE Green be any better for anything Im trying to do?

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post #27 of 33 Old 12-05-2013, 06:12 PM
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The SiI504 in the VP30 does still process 240p material, but the results are considerably better than using the ABT102. Unfortunately you get a little more lag than using the gamemode 1 on the ABT102 or the VP50.

ABT102 for games: it's faster. You get a 6ms gamemode 1 and an approx. 22ms game mode 2. GM1 handles 240p material kinda correctly, but it applies so much interpolation, that it completely wrecks the pixel art. GM2 is a fast 480i deinterlacing mode, so you lose 240p effects.

ABT102 for movies and video: the SiI504 was already dated when it got put into the VP30. The cadence detection for movies with the ABT102/VP50 is phenomenal and so is the video deinterlacing for 480i material.

These are all very nice processors. It's just not possible to get the BEST for videos/movies and games with the same machine. One processor to avoid though is the Edge Green. It does not work with 8 and 16/32-bit systems (240p).

How much money do you want to spend ? Your best option (minus the satellite TV) would be a Framemeister. The more sources you have, the more complicated it will get to find a solution to manage them all. I've tried every single processor there is (and was) and you'll always compromise on some sources....
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post #28 of 33 Old 12-06-2013, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I got my SLG-HD in this week, but for the life of me, I can't get any output from it. I did buy a HD-15 cable, and jacked it into both of my tv and reciever, set up the iScan HD to ouput via analog rgb (as the slg-hd wants), but nada.

I'm assuming I have the wrong cable, I had hoped that HD-15 -> RGB cables were standard, but maybe not?

Any hints you might have?
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post #29 of 33 Old 12-06-2013, 05:08 PM
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The SLG-HD needs analogue component, not analogue RGB. You have to set the iScan to output YPbPr in 31khz. You can easily verify the signal first by connecting the iScan directly to your TV or receiver first.
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post #30 of 33 Old 12-06-2013, 05:24 PM
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Fudoh, couple more questions.  First, it seems an iScan VP50 Pro would suit what Im trying to do.  If I obtain an older unit that doesnt have the 240p fix firmware, how easy is it to obtain and flash the proper firmware?  Can you use a standard D-sub 9 RS-232 cable to accomplish this?  Does it require proprietary software, and if so how can I obtain it?  Also, are all the VP 50 Pro functions available via the front panel, if you lose or dont have a remote, for instance?

 

Second, you suggested a NESRGB unit for my NES.  I would personally love to get one. I've read some how to's, but for someone with firsthand experience such as yourself, how difficult is the installation?  Also, it seems  to be currently unavailable-- how often does the guy selling it usually get more in?

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